Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[yorksrob]

I am not sure why you think that way. If before Covid and Masks, someone felt unsafe or threatened on a bus due to the actions of another passenger who refused to give them some space, I am sure you would have advised them to leave the bus and get themselves to a place of safety. You would also, I assume, not expect them to immediately get back on a bus without some level of re-assurance.

You would not, again I hope, have made a judgement about them as a person, to why they felt unsafe or threatened. But now Covid is here and you feel it is absolutely fine to judge people for asking for a bit of personal space, and then when it is not given removing themselves from potential harm.

If the bus was empty or there was plenty of space elsewhere, he might have had a point. Otherwise, you can't expect to not have someone sit near you on a bus that is busy, mask or no mask.

Even if someone had sat next to him with no need, most people on public transport will automatically spread out as much as possible anyway.

 

[Bantamzen]

I am not sure why you think that way. If before Covid and Masks, someone felt unsafe or threatened on a bus due to the actions of another passenger who refused to give them some space, I am sure you would have advised them to leave the bus and get themselves to a place of safety. You would also, I assume, not expect them to immediately get back on a bus without some level of re-assurance.

You would not, again I hope, have made a judgement about them as a person, to why they felt unsafe or threatened. But now Covid is here and you feel it is absolutely fine to judge people for asking for a bit of personal space, and then when it is not given removing themselves from potential harm.

Why I feel about it is simple. He has chosen oust someone in the media for it. Did he for one moment that he might be exempt? Does he not realise that he might have fellow members of the union that are also exempt? No he's gone into full bedwetter mode and cried about it publicly, declaring that he hasn't used public transport since. All that is bad enough until you also consider that he is literally talking jobs from under his own member's feet by effectively declaring public transport unsafe.

Someone simply sitting next to you without a mask is no more of a risk than you sitting in a cafe or pub, or walking around a supermarket. This fear-jerking behaviour has gone too far now, and its time to stop. Especially from people prominent in things like the unions.

 

[big_rig]

I am not sure why you think that way. If before Covid and Masks, someone felt unsafe or threatened on a bus due to the actions of another passenger who refused to give them some space, I am sure you would have advised them to leave the bus and get themselves to a place of safety. You would also, I assume, not expect them to immediately get back on a bus without some level of re-assurance.

You would not, again I hope, have made a judgement about them as a person, to why they felt unsafe or threatened. But now Covid is here and you feel it is absolutely fine to judge people for asking for a bit of personal space, and then when it is not given removing themselves from potential harm.

The bloke is vaccinated. If he has any faith in vaccines he will not care whether somebody wears a scrap of cloth over their face or not. If he doesn’t, he’s an anti-vaxxer and I’m glad that he isn’t from my union - I wouldn’t have much faith in them to negotiate on my behalf if they take such a ridiculously uptight and irrational approach to life.

 

[notlob.divad]

If the bus was empty or there was plenty of space elsewhere, he might have had a point. Otherwise, you can't expect to not have someone sit near you on a bus that is busy, mask or no mask.

Even if someone had sat next to him with no need, most people on public transport will automatically spread out as much as possible anyway.

Agreed you cannot expect to have a bus to yourself and at times that might mean sitting next to someone else. However, mask or no mask, covid or no covid, if someone sat next to you on a full bus and acted in a way that you felt was potentially threatening to you, (and possibly the people around you) you would not get off the bus? You would sit there whilst they carried on this behaviour?

Personally I have seen people leave a bus to get away from people for a whole host of reasons, and sometimes the reason wasn't obvious. I did not make a judgement of their character based upon that. They felt uncomfortable in the situation and so left.

You are one who professes to want us to make decisions for ourselves and to stop draconian regulations. But when people make decisions to protect themselves you appear to want to judge them. Which is exactly where we are heading to as a society, those who make decisions to protect themselves either by continueing to wear a mask, and or by asking for a little bit of personal space, will be judged and set-upon by those that deam their rights to 'freedom' trounce the rights of those who feel the need to protect themselves.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2021 ==

He has chosen oust someone in the media for it

Has he named the person? Otherwise it is just an anonymous member of the public, whom for all you know may not even exist.

Consider that he is literally talking jobs from under his own member's feet by effectively declaring public transport unsafe.

Alternatively he is trying to create more jobs for his members by pushing for an increase in the number of buses so people can space out properly.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed you cannot expect to have a bus to yourself and at times that might mean sitting next to someone else. However, mask or no mask, covid or no covid, if someone sat next to you on a full bus and acted in a way that you felt was potentially threatening to you, (and possibly the people around you) you would not get off the bus? You would sit there whilst they carried on this behaviour?

Personally I have seen people leave a bus to get away from people for a whole host of reasons, and sometimes the reason wasn't obvious. I did not make a judgement of their character based upon that. They felt uncomfortable in the situation and so left.

You are one who professes to want us to make decisions for ourselves and to stop draconian regulations. But when people make decisions to protect themselves you appear to want to judge them. Which is exactly where we are heading to as a society, those who make decisions to protect themselves either by continueing to wear a mask, and or by asking for a little bit of personal space, will be judged and set-upon by those that deam their rights to 'freedom' trounce the rights of those who feel the need to protect themselves.

In answer to your question, yes I possibly might do. It wouldn't stop me catching a bus in future though.

I don't think I was pre-judging this individual. I specifically mentioned a circumstance in which I felt he might have been justifiably aggrieved on that occasion.

However, the right to protect oneself doesn't automatically trump the right of others to go about their daily business and undertaking normal everyday behaviours, such as sitting on a bus and breathing unencumbered.

 

[notlob.divad]

The bloke is vaccinated. If he has any faith in vaccines he will not care whether somebody wears a scrap of cloth over their face or not. If he doesn’t, he’s an anti-vaxxer and I’m glad that he isn’t from my union - I wouldn’t have much faith in them to negotiate on my behalf if they take such a ridiculously uptight and irrational approach to life.

I have no idea who he is, or take any interest in his personal medical history.

On your second point, I don't see how someone who has had the vaccine could be classed as an anti-vaxxer. If they were anti-vaccination, they therefore would have refused the vaccine would they not?

 

[Scotrail12]

Well, I'll definitely be headed to England some time in late July for a few days of mask-free heaven.

They have not helped public health in any way (otherwise we wouldn't have had an increase in cases), I actually question if they are at all hygienic and frankly I abhor the way that it's created yet more division in society. If people don't wear a mask beyond July 19th, that's their business - nothing to do with you and I can't even see why it would bother you if you've had a vaccine and believe that the vaccine works.

One last thing is the comments on consideration - I actually would say it's more polite not to wear a mask when talking to somebody because then you can be heard clearer, especially if that person is hard of hearing. Let's stop pretending that COVID is the only thing in town and that masks don't open up more issues.

 

[big_rig]

I have no idea who he is, or take any interest in his personal medical history.

On your second point, I don't see how someone who has had the vaccine could be classed as an anti-vaxxer. If they were anti-vaccination, they therefore would have refused the vaccine would they not?

Every adult in this country has long since been offered the vaccine. This person either:

Has not taken it up, in which case they’re an anti-vaxxer and not of sound judgement; or
Taken it up but is still terrified of people sitting next to them without a scrap of cloth on their face, so is a wet blanket in a role where grit is required, and also evidently doesn’t believe that vaccines are effective I.e an anti-vaxxer for all intents and purposes.

Maybe they could be made to buy two tickets on the bus if they want to reserve one for their own use next time.

 

[duncanp]

I see it is rumoured table service only at pubs will be remaining which is rather annoying

Surely there is very little risk in allowing a queue at the bar and just enforce no standing around at the bar once you have your drinks

If you look into this rumour a little further, it appears that whilst the "table service only" rule will be scrapped in England, some locktivist local authorities will try to keep it going by imposing "table service only", plus social distancing and the rule of six, on the grounds of "safety".

It is the same as Sadiq Khant trying to keep mandatory face coverings on the London Underground when they are no longer mandatory on public transport elsewhere in England.

But I have also seen (in the Telegraph) that Boris Johnson is going to get rid of the rules that give local authorities the power to impose such pettry restrictions over and above what is required nationally.

So if local authority tin pot little Hitlers think that they can mandate table service only after July 19th, they have got another think coming.

And given the effect of table service only on the operation of pubs, I think that very few will retain it after July 19th if it becomes voluntary.

 

[Ianno87]

I have no idea who he is, or take any interest in his personal medical history.

On your second point, I don't see how someone who has had the vaccine could be classed as an anti-vaxxer. If they were anti-vaccination, they therefore would have refused the vaccine would they not?

At least one double-vaccinated person I know (definitely at the "cautious" end of the spectrum) is wary of being in close contact with others because it is not known whether the other person is also double-vaccinated (which, in theory, the the minimised risk of transmission), because not all adults are doubled-jabbed yet.

They are, perhaps, being over cautious.

One last thing is the comments on consideration - I actually would say it's more polite not to wear a mask when talking to somebody because then you can be heard clearer, especially if that person is hard of hearing.

Unless they themselves want you to wear a mask, course..... Don't just assume the other person will be comfortable with you being mask-free.

 

[notlob.divad]

However, the right to protect oneself doesn't automatically trump the right of others to go about their daily business and undertaking normal everyday behaviours, such as sitting on a bus and breathing unencumbered.

Agreed, but asking for a bit of personal space, does not I woudl assume prevent others from gogin about their everyday business. I woudl also agrue for the vast majority of people that wearing a mask does not encumber them in their breathing.

Once any enforced mask wearing is dropped, there is clearly a middle ground where people who want to continue wearing a mask can do, and those who want to not wear a mask are also free to. However it would be polite and communal for those who foresake a mask to take an open-minded approach to those who continue to wear one, and perhaps give them a bit more personal space, than you would have before. However I fear in the current polarised society, the opposite is more likely to happen.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed, but asking for a bit of personal space, does not I woudl assume prevent others from gogin about their everyday business. I woudl also agrue for the vast majority of people that wearing a mask does not encumber them in their breathing.

Once any enforced mask wearing is dropped, there is clearly a middle ground where people who want to continue wearing a mask can do, and those who want to not wear a mask are also free to. However it would be polite and communal for those who foresake a mask to take an open-minded approach to those who continue to wear one, and perhaps give them a bit more personal space, than you would have before. However I fear in the current polarised society, the opposite is more likely to happen.

As I say, it would depend on how busy the bus was. I wouldn't sit near to someone if I could avoid it (covid or no covid). However if there was only one seat left, I wouldn't not sit in it to for the sake of someones personal space.

 

[island]

This is not correct
There are TFL enforcement officers who have apparantly been giving out fines
My understanding is that they have mainly been employed as preventing staff assaults
Certainly a 20 minute observation of 7 of them at Bond Street mid morning last week saw many people walk past without masks and the one who were stopped muttered exempt and were promptly sent on their way.
This is why I am not interested in what Sadiq thinks as this waste of money is typical

TfL does have enforcement officers who can issue FPNs but their powers stem from the national face coverings regulations. If these are revoked, which it seems they will be, any residual enforcement capacity (if any) will stem from TfL Byelaw 12, which cannot be enforced by way of FPN, only reporting for prosecution.

Over the last 12 hours it has been rumoured step 4 will involve this following:
Masks still advised to be worn on public transport and other enclosed spaces
WFH advice remaining
Table service in pubs remaining

Step 4 is increasingly looking like it will be easing in name only .

As long as it’s advice I do not mind.

I am not bothered about table service in pubs, as I go to one once a month on average.

Indeed. For months now there have been endless repetitions of the argument:

- '*no-one* wants these restrictions to last forever, just a little while longer to keep people safe'
- 'ok, so when and/or what criteria should we have to remove them?'
<silence>

Precisely.

It's about time people realised that there is a noisy and - for some reason - *influential* group of people who want restrictions *forever*, and that their utterances and pronouncements are all aimed at that. Why they want people wearing masks and socially distancing forever, I have no idea, but denying that they exist doesn't make them go away.

Indeed. A friend of mine tweeted this morning a photo of herself wearing a mask, outdoors, away from anyone, and proclaiming that she would keep wearing it regardless of any changes to rules because it’s a “minor gesture”. Yet, at her birthday party a couple of months ago she was happily unmasked throughout and regularly within less than 2m of others. It all seems rather performative.

 

[greyman42]

Another thread that has descended into Masks Good v Masks Bad. It is getting very boring now.

I really worry for the UK after the 19th July. If some people on here are correct in their assertions, I can see hoards of anti-maskers intentionally invading the personal space of those who choose to continue wearing masks, just so they can make a point.

I don't see anything like that happening.

 

[Bantamzen]

Has he named the person? Otherwise it is just an anonymous member of the public, whom for all you know may not even exist.

No but that bloke might read that article, and if he has an exemption it might make him feel bad for no good reason. And frankly anyone in that position, especially in a union should not be running to the press to shame ordinary people. Too many people out there, and in here are far to keen to shame to make themselves feel more virtuous.

Alternatively he is trying to create more jobs for his members by pushing for an increase in the number of buses so people can space out properly.

Are you new here....?

 

[greyman42]

Enforcement of face covering requirements on TfL is in my wide experience negligible to non-existent.

As you say, anyone who regularly uses TfL will have noticed this but for whatever reason, the media seem to push the notion that compliance is 99%.

 

[jumble]

I don't see anything like that happening.

Exactly Why should they
I personally could not care less whether anyone wears a mask or not after 19 July
My Partner will probably carry on wearing one and I won't and so what ?

 

[greyman42]

Likewise I've seen people of all ages, shapes and sizes not wearing them with minimal dispute. The only example was an angry old man on the Circle line last year that swore at four young people sitting near me. Two of them were eating at the time so no requirement to wear a mask anyway. He was walking up and down the train picking on people so clearly looking for trouble.

Not to be advised on the Underground as sooner rather than later he will find it.

 

[Andyh82]

Looking on Twitter, all the celebs who often tweet politics are retweeting images of the chart showing a massive rise in cases, suggesting it is reckless to reduce measures now and it’s ‘yet other mistake by this government #getborisoutnow’

I can sense which way this is going to go, it’ll be ‘the tories’ versus everyone else

 

[Dent]

If some people on here are correct in their assertions, I can see hoards of anti-maskers intentionally invading the personal space of those who choose to continue wearing masks, just so they can make a point.

Who has said that they intend to intentionally invade anyone's personal space?

 

[Darandio]

Not so much guilt tripping as being careful and thoughtful to others, perhaps? I can think of plenty of people I know on here that I know will throw the masks away at the earliest opportunity, having only ever worn them in the first place to avoid a fine rather than out of consideration.

It certainly was guilt tripping. Suggesting that someone who has decided (legally!) not to wear a mask could be some sort of walking biohazard infecting others around them. What a despicable virtue signalling cesspit of a society we have become.

By the way, you can count me in on the last part except mine is already off, it came off on June 21st. I'd already had my first jab and now get tested three times a week. Realistically I could easily have claimed a genuine exemption due a history of chest and breathing issues but wore one both to do my bit and avoid hassle. But then they moved the goalposts yet again, mask gone.

 

[quantinghome]

Interesting public opinion poll out today:

 

[Bantamzen]

Interesting public opinion poll out today:

View attachment 99268

Ah yes, YouGov. The Karen of opinion polling.

Let's see what actually happens when facemasks are no longer mandatory.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Interesting public opinion poll out today:

View attachment 99268

Note the words "in terms of Covid 19".

I imagine in terms of personal safety (for example), the results would be quite different.

 

[notlob.divad]

Exactly Why should they
I personally could not care less whether anyone wears a mask or not after 19 July
My Partner will probably carry on wearing one and I won't and so what ?

You, personally, probably not. But given any little chance, the kind of people who aggressively invaded Chris Whitty's personal space and BBC journalists the other week... I feel those whom choose to continue wearing masks will become their next targets.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Boris lays out what might happen on 19th won't be confirmed til 12th July but

All legal restrictions will be revoked
No restrictions on events sizes
No face coverings but guidance will remain that face coverings may be good on public transport
No 1m +
No vaccine certification

Will still have test & trace so you may still have to self isolate but changes to come for double dosed

Border controls will remain but working towards no quarantining from Amber countries if your double dosed.

It will be all about guidance not regulations.

 

[Dent]

You, personally, probably not. But given any little chance, the kind of people who aggressively invaded Chris Whitty's personal space and BBC journalists the other week... I feel those whom choose to continue wearing masks will become their next targets.

What are you basing this on?

 

[tommy2215]

Funny how despite this press conference being about ending all legal restrictions, Boris started off by telling everyone there would be 60k cases a day by the 19th, more people in the NHS and more people dying. Even now they can't resist trying to scare people

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Funny how despite this press conference being about ending all legal restrictions, Boris started off by telling everyone there would be 60k cases a day by the 19th, more people in the NHS and more people dying. Even now they can't resist trying to scare people

Maybe but they probably expect some people to continue to wear masks and social distancing in there useless models to justify removing all restrictions.

 

[Bikeman78]

Why I feel about it is simple. He has chosen oust someone in the media for it. Did he for one moment that he might be exempt? Does he not realise that he might have fellow members of the union that are also exempt? No he's gone into full bedwetter mode and cried about it publicly, declaring that he hasn't used public transport since. All that is bad enough until you also consider that he is literally talking jobs from under his own member's feet by effectively declaring public transport unsafe.

Someone simply sitting next to you without a mask is no more of a risk than you sitting in a cafe or pub, or walking around a supermarket. This fear-jerking behaviour has gone too far now, and its time to stop. Especially from people prominent in things like the unions.

From my observations there are plenty of bus drivers and supermarket staff not wearing masks now; definitely more than a few months ago. Plenty more have them not covering their nose. Who can blame them? I wouldn't want to wear one for 8-12 hours every day.