TPE May 2022 Unit Allocation

[Purple Orange]

With the announcement of the ECML consultation, how do people think the various units will be dispersed across the TPE network?

The North Trans Pennine timetable will be:

• Liverpool - Newcastle
• Liverpool - Scarborough
• Manchester Victoria - York
• Manchester Airport - Saltburn
• Manchester Piccadilly - Hull
• Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield

It makes sense for the 802s to remain on the Liverpool-Newcastle services, but that wouldn’t use all 802s. Perhaps the remainder could be allocated to Manchester Airport - Saltburn to make use of most wiring, or Liverpool - Scarborough.

Could it also be that we see 185s run the remaining services, with the Mk5a+68s gone elsewhere?

 

[JonathanH]

A good first step in this consideration would be to count up the number of diagrams on each route. Then it can be matched to the routes, noting the availability of 19 802s, 13 Mark 5 sets and 51 185s less whatever get sent elsewhere or are needed for Manchester to Cleethorpes.

Then, to look at where units are overnight, given that 802s only go to Doncaster, Heaton, Edge Hill and Craigentinny, 68s go to Longsight and Scarborough, 185s go to Ardwick and York.

 

[Purple Orange]

A good first step in this consideration would be to count up the number of diagrams on each route. Then it can be matched to the routes, noting the availability of 19 802s, 13 Mark 5 sets and 51 185s less whatever get sent elsewhere or are needed for Manchester to Cleethorpes.

True. Although I don’t have sight of the current diagrams required to compare unfortunately.

 

[JonathanH]

True. Although I don’t have sight of the current diagrams required to compare unfortunately.

No, but a quick look at the proposed timetable says how long it takes to go Liverpool to Newcastle before the same unit can do that again.

 

[LittleAH]

So many other things to take into account.

1) Diversionary routes and TRU
2) MRTF - TPE could still run 2 trains to the Airport on the chord
3) ECML consultation - can't see northern leaders being remotely happy, may not happen or like MRTF be delayed
4) New routes - Can TPE go on the Durham coast? What about Liverpool-Nottingham
5) Access to Craigentinny - will require knowledge and ECS movement, may as well make them a service for pax.

 

[Purple Orange]

So, notwithstanding the valid points SuperNova makes, my basic maths says the following diagrams are needed:

• 7 x Liverpool - Newcastle
• 7 x Liverpool - Scarborough
• 4 x Manchester Victoria - York
• 8 x Manchester Airport - Saltburn
• 5 x Manchester Piccadilly - Hull
• 2 x Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield

Assuming 802s run from Liverpool, that would result in 5 surplus units. If the rest were 185s, that would require 38 units (assuming 6-car trains). I’m unsure how many diagrams Liv-Nottingham would be.

 

[43096]

So, notwithstanding the valid points SuperNova makes, my basic maths says the following diagrams are needed:

• 7 x Liverpool - Newcastle
• 7 x Liverpool - Scarborough
• 4 x Manchester Victoria - York
• 8 x Manchester Airport - Saltburn
• 5 x Manchester Piccadilly - Hull
• 2 x Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield

Assuming 802s run from Liverpool, that would result in 5 surplus units. If the rest were 185s, that would require 38 units (assuming 6-car trains). I’m unsure how many diagrams Liv-Nottingham would be.

Liverpool-Nottingham is 6 circuits, so needs 12 units. And then there is south TPE to Cleethorpes to factor in.

 

[RobShipway]

Manchester - Cleethorpes requires about 18 units on the current timetable. Some of those services are working as single units with some services using paired units. I am presuming that Manchester Piccadilly - Hull would be using a similar amount of units?

 

[DanNCL]

My predictions:

• Liverpool - Newcastle (802)
• Liverpool - Scarborough (68+Mark 5)
• Manchester Victoria - York (185)
• Manchester Airport - Saltburn (68+Mark 5 with some 802s)
• Manchester Piccadilly - Hull (185)
• Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield (185)

I don't understand the obsession that many people on this forum seem to have with ditching the Mark 5 sets. Without them 3 car diagrams would become common again on routes where they aren't suitable.

5) Access to Craigentinny - will require knowledge and ECS movement, may as well make them a service for pax.

Can easily be done by allocating 802s to one or two West Coast TPE services removing the need for ECS workings between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

 

[RobShipway]

I don't understand the obsession that many people on this forum seem to have with ditching the Mark 5 sets. Without them 3 car diagrams would become common again on routes where they aren't suitable.

Maybe, they want class 442's instead!

It is a shame that you cannot put a diesel engine in a class 313 unit, otherwise I would say that Southern should do a swap!

Before any asks, yes these comments are not serious.......

 

[LittleAH]

Can easily be done by allocating 802s to one or two West Coast TPE services removing the need for ECS workings between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

I mean that's not easy is it... Newcastle depot need to operate them.

 

[DanNCL]

I mean that's not easy is it... Newcastle depot need to operate them.

Test runs on the West Coast with 802s had just started to take place before the crack issues with them were dicsovered with a view to being able to get them to Craigentinny via the West Coast service in the future.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

So many other things to take into account.

1) Diversionary routes and TRU
2) MRTF - TPE could still run 2 trains to the Airport on the chord
3) ECML consultation - can't see northern leaders being remotely happy, may not happen or like MRTF be delayed
4) New routes - Can TPE go on the Durham coast? What about Liverpool-Nottingham
5) Access to Craigentinny - will require knowledge and ECS movement, may as well make them a service for pax.

Believe you me, unlike the Manchester timetable change, the ECML timetable change will happen, regardless of what Northern leaders say. Its been set in stone.

 

[geordieblue]

What about Leeds-Huddersfield?

 

[RobShipway]

What about Leeds-Huddersfield?

Leeds - Huddersfield comes under the Liverpool - Newcastle services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Leeds - Huddersfield comes under the Liverpool - Newcastle services.

Why? The markets served by the two services are just about as far apart as it's possible to get within the same operator, in terms of usage.

 

[Fokx]

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Leeds - Huddersfield comes under the Liverpool - Newcastle services.

Why?

They don’t even use the same units. It’s not physically possible to use a 802 on the Leeds to Hudds all stations

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[/

My predictions:

• Liverpool - Newcastle (802)
• Liverpool - Scarborough (68+Mark 5)
• Manchester Victoria - York (185)
• Manchester Airport - Saltburn (68+Mark 5 with some 802s)
• Manchester Piccadilly - Hull (185)
• Manchester Piccadilly - Huddersfield (185)
• Huddersfield to Leeds (185)

Pretty much spot on there except the Manchester Victoria to York will be 802’s so long as nothing changes

 

[DanNCL]

Pretty much spot on there except the Manchester Victoria to York will be 802’s so long as nothing changes

Seems a waste of a bi-mode unit when nearly all of that route is unelectrified, especially as TPE don't do diesel-electric switchovers on the move therefore wouldn't make use of any of the short sections of overhead wires there are between Manchester and York. If 185s aren't an option for it then it would surely make more sense to take the 68+Mark 5 sets off the Saltburn route to use on Victoria to York, with the Saltburn route getting the 802s, at least there's 30 miles of wires between York and Northallerton for them to use on that route.

 

[LittleAH]

Test runs on the West Coast with 802s had just started to take place before the crack issues with them were dicsovered with a view to being able to get them to Craigentinny via the West Coast service in the future.

And? They'll still need to run up to Craigentinny via the ECML. Or do you know more than what somebody from TPE said today in a call with staff?

 

[RobShipway]

Why? The markets served by the two services are just about as far apart as it's possible to get within the same operator, in terms of usage.

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Why?

The services between Liverpool and Newcastle stop at both Leeds and Huddersfield. Why do you need more services? Surely the local services between Leeds and Huddersfield should be down to the local TOC provider?

 

[D365]

Manchester - Cleethorpes requires about 18 units on the current timetable. Some of those services are working as single units with some services using paired units. I am presuming that Manchester Piccadilly - Hull would be using a similar amount of units?

The intention is very much for most, if not all, South Transpennine services to be operated in pairs. At least as far as Sheffield/Doncaster.

 

[RobShipway]

The intention is very much for most, if not all, South Transpennine services to be operated in pairs. At least as far as Sheffield/Doncaster.

Apologies, that it is not brilliant but the attached is an excel spreadsheet I did yesterday noting from Realtime Trains all Manchester Airport/Manchester Piccadilly to Cleethorpes. The timings in the excel spreadsheet are from Manchester Piccadilly. The document shows that there is about 18 units used overall through the day. Some services are single unit services from Cleethorpes to Manchester or vice versa, but some of those units through the day do get coupled up at some point with other units. I presume that this is done at Doncaster?

As yet I have not done the same with the Hull to Manchester services to see what units are used.. But other than the peak periods between 6am - 10am and 3pm - 7pm, could you not have it such that if the Hull services are also single car to Manchester, that they get coupled with the Cleethorpes services at Doncaster prior to travelling on to Manchester?

If the Hull trains through the day are two unit trains, then could you have three units working from Doncaster to Manchester?

 

[HST43257]

How about this? Number in brackets is number of trains being used every day. Everything is 5 or 6 coaches. Feel free to point out any mistakes as well

802 (15/19)
7x Liverpool to Newcastle
8x Man Airport to Saltburn

185 (30/36)
4x Huddersfield to Leeds
10x Man Pic to Hull
4x Man Pic to Huddersfield
12x Man Airport to Cleethorpes

68 (11/13)
7x Liverpool to Scarborough
4x Man Vic to York

 

[DanNCL]

And? They'll still need to run up to Craigentinny via the ECML. Or do you know more than what somebody from TPE said today in a call with staff?

To the best of my knowledge at the time what I said was the case, I wasn’t aware that it had changed. No need to be rude about it.

 

[RobShipway]

I think we are all forgetting that the following services require trains:

Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley via Preston
Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central via St Helens Central

How about this? Number in brackets is number of trains being used every day. Everything is 5 or 6 coaches. Feel free to point out any mistakes as well

802 (15/19)
7x Liverpool to Newcastle
8x Man Airport to Saltburn

185 (30/36)
4x Huddersfield to Leeds
10x Man Pic to Hull
4x Man Pic to Huddersfield
12x Man Airport to Cleethorpes

68 (11/13)
7x Liverpool to Scarborough
4x Man Vic to York

Some if the class 802's are required for the Liverpool via Newcastle to Edingburgh route aren't they?

 

[43096]

I think we are all forgetting that the following services require trains:

Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley via Preston
Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central via St Helens Central

I think everyone’s assumption is that the 397s will continue to work those, as now.

 

[HST43257]

I think we are all forgetting that the following services require trains:

Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley via Preston
Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central via St Helens Central

They have their Class 397s which are completely separate from what we are looking at

Some if the class 802's are required for the Liverpool via Newcastle to Edingburgh route aren't they?

I didn’t get the impression that many, if any, Edinburgh via Newcastle services were running. I guess 1 or 2 will have to for maintenance but that’d be start and end of day so irrelevant imo.

 

[D365]

Apologies, that it is not brilliant but the attached is an excel spreadsheet I did yesterday noting from Realtime Trains all Manchester Airport/Manchester Piccadilly to Cleethorpes. The timings in the excel spreadsheet are from Manchester Piccadilly. The document shows that there is about 18 units used overall through the day. Some services are single unit services from Cleethorpes to Manchester or vice versa, but some of those units through the day do get coupled up at some point with other units. I presume that this is done at Doncaster?

As yet I have not done the same with the Hull to Manchester services to see what units are used.. But other than the peak periods between 6am - 10am and 3pm - 7pm, could you not have it such that if the Hull services are also single car to Manchester, that they get coupled with the Cleethorpes services at Doncaster prior to travelling on to Manchester?

If the Hull trains through the day are two unit trains, then could you have three units working from Doncaster to Manchester?

I’m very confused by this. TPE don’t operate Doncaster to Hull, unless you are suggesting a new route.

Don’t forget that several diagrams have gone back to single 185s in order to cover for Hitachi problems.

 

[Neptune]

Surely the local services between Leeds and Huddersfield should be down to the local TOC provider?

TPE are the local provider of Leeds - Huddersfield stoppers the same as Man Pic - Huddersfield stoppers. They have been for a few years now.

 

[37424]

Given the reduced scope for the 802's on that service proposal unless allocated to other TPE services not originally proposed. the Dft might decide to send of few 802's elsewhere, and if they opted to keep all the 185's with TPE they might just keep a limited number of 802's for Newcastle
Liverpool services only.