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TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

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Fokx

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Thanks for that.
Do you know which services over the Pennines remain 68 hauled? Are they the ones listed in my earlier post, or is there some new variant planned?

Sadly I don’t remember myself as I don’t sign the traction, but the information should be available soon.

I strongly believe it will be the diagrams you’ve posted AFAIK, utilising three units on rotation, with a set swap on the first half of diagram B. Ie one unit stays in Scarborough overnight and is swapped at Ardwick mid-morning with a new set
 
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Watershed

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The December 20 diagrams are as follows:

Set 1:
05:54 MCV-LIV
06:54 LIV-SCA
12:34 SCA-YRK
14:00 YRK-SCA
18:34 SCA-YRK
20:00 YRK-SCA

Set 2:
05:34 SCA-YRK
07:02 YRK-SCA
09:34 SCA-YRK
11:00 YRK-SCA
13:34 SCA-YRK
15:00 YRK-SCA
16:34 SCA-YRK
18:00 YRK-SCA
20:34 SCA-MIA

Set 3:
06:34 SCA-YRK
08:03 YRK-SCA
10:34 SCA-YRK
12:00 YRK-SCA
15:34 SCA-YRK
17:00 YRK-SCA
19:34 SCA-YRK
22:00 YRK-SCA

I don't anticipate there being any major changes to those diagrams for the remainder of the timetable period, or indeed for the initial part of the May timetable. There is perhaps a chance of some changes in September.

is swapped at Ardwick
Err, don't think so! ;)
 

Watershed

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Is there still problems at Scarborough with noise complaints?
Yes, to an extent. The root cause is the combination of ETS being needed to clean and service the carriages (which means the 68's engine rises to 1150 RPM, where it is very bassy and reverberating), as well as the lack of sufficient noise insulation in adjacent properties and at the sidings.

I think it's just one of those that is going to continue to rumble on, because I certainly don't see the first issue going away anytime soon.
 

Roger B

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Yes, to an extent. The root cause is the combination of ETS being needed to clean and service the carriages (which means the 68's engine rises to 1150 RPM, where it is very bassy and reverberating), as well as the lack of sufficient noise insulation in adjacent properties and at the sidings.

I think it's just one of those that is going to continue to rumble on, because I certainly don't see the first issue going away anytime soon.
Sounds to me TPE they need to install some shore-based power for use while cleaning / maintaining stock. Won't antagonise neighbours, will reduce fuel bills, and be environmentally better - commercial power generation from coal comes to an end at the end of this month (albeit there will still be a reserve capability for some time afterwards). Just do it!
 

Watershed

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Good pun there, I like it!
Unintended actually!

Sounds to me TPE they need to install some shore-based power for use while cleaning / maintaining stock. Won't antagonise neighbours, will reduce fuel bills, and be environmentally better - commercial power generation from coal comes to an end at the end of this month (albeit there will still be a reserve capability for some time afterwards). Just do it!
This would of course be the ideal solution. But there are various practical issues with it which mean it's difficult to do. If insulation doesn't sufficiently protect against the noise, I think this will be the only option.
 

kingston_toon

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The December 20 diagrams are as follows:

Set 1:
05:54 MCV-LIV
06:54 LIV-SCA
12:34 SCA-YRK
14:00 YRK-SCA
18:34 SCA-YRK
20:00 YRK-SCA

Set 2:
05:34 SCA-YRK
07:02 YRK-SCA
09:34 SCA-YRK
11:00 YRK-SCA
13:34 SCA-YRK
15:00 YRK-SCA
16:34 SCA-YRK
18:00 YRK-SCA
20:34 SCA-MIA

Set 3:
06:34 SCA-YRK
08:03 YRK-SCA
10:34 SCA-YRK
12:00 YRK-SCA
15:34 SCA-YRK
17:00 YRK-SCA
19:34 SCA-YRK
22:00 YRK-SCA

I don't anticipate there being any major changes to those diagrams for the remainder of the timetable period, or indeed for the initial part of the May timetable. There is perhaps a chance of some changes in September.


Err, don't think so! ;)

Hi all, I think I saw in another thread these three diagrams would be applicable from Monday - could a kind soul confirm whether this will be the case? Cheers!
 

L+Y

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Does anybody know if crew training has yet restarted on 68+Mk5 sets, to allow the diagrams to start to ramp up again later in the year?

As a total outsider, I can't help but feel the fleet risks going the way of the SWR 442s, but really hope I'm wrong!
 

FrodshamJnct

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Does anybody know if crew training has yet restarted on 68+Mk5 sets, to allow the diagrams to start to ramp up again later in the year?

As a total outsider, I can't help but feel the fleet risks going the way of the SWR 442s, but really hope I'm wrong!

Yes, I think so. There has been runs through Crewe recently. There was a set on platform 12 when I was there on Wednesday, and there has been runs on other days too.
 

sjpowermac

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Does anybody know if crew training has yet restarted on 68+Mk5 sets, to allow the diagrams to start to ramp up again later in the year?

As a total outsider, I can't help but feel the fleet risks going the way of the SWR 442s, but really hope I'm wrong!
No current training of TPE drivers.

There have been some training runs with Nova 3 sets between Leeds Balm Road and Tyne but those have been for Freightliner drivers. Freightliner are responsible for stock movements for the Nova 3 sets and Fault Free Running moves on the WCML.

I guess it’s a case of watch this space.
 

VauxhallNova

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As a total outsider, I can't help but feel the fleet risks going the way of the SWR 442s, but really hope I'm wrong!
As others have said, this has been TPEs intended outcome since the start of the franchise. They always wanted a new direct award with more Hitachis and to bin the Mk5As, hence branding them as Nova 3 despite arriving first. Look at the contract changes made at the start of the franchise that allow them to bin a fleet if they deem them 'not up to standard', before construction had even started.

Having four different fleets of trains adds even more complexity to their considerable train crew issues and over-reliance on Rest Day Working.

As sjpowermac says, we will have to wait and see what the future brings.
 
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nicolaboo

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I see the 3 diagrams listed above.
Are they for Mon-Sat, with a change on Sunday, or don't the Nova3s run Sundays?
Just wondering about the 1E27 8:19 Picc to Scar.
 

Watershed

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I see the 3 diagrams listed above.
Are they for Mon-Sat, with a change on Sunday, or don't the Nova3s run Sundays?
Just wondering about the 1E27 8:19 Picc to Scar.
The diagrams are a little different on Sundays. 1E27 is booked a Nova 3:

Set 1
0932 SCA-YRK 1022 1T60
1100 YRK-SCA 1149 1T29
1332 SCA-YRK 1423 1T68
1500 YRK-SCA 1549 1T37
1632 SCA-YRK 1723 1T74
1800 YRK-SCA 1849 1T43
2034 SCA-MIA 2324 1P94

Set 2
0819 MAN-SCA 1053 1E27
1132 SCA-YRK 1223 1T64
1300 YRK-SCA 1349 1T33
1432 SCA-YRK 1523 1T70
1600 YRK-SCA 1649 1T39
1732 SCA-YRK 1823 1T76
1900 YRK-SCA 1949 1T45

Set 3
1034 SCA-YRK 1125 1T62
1200 YRK-SCA 1249 1T31
1534 SCA-YRK 1625 1T72
1700 YRK-SCA 1749 1T41
1934 SCA-YRK 2025 1P92
2200 YRK-SCA 2249 1T51
 

Jamesrob637

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The diagrams are a little different on Sundays. 1E27 is booked a Nova 3:

Set 1
0932 SCA-YRK 1022 1T60
1100 YRK-SCA 1149 1T29
1332 SCA-YRK 1423 1T68
1500 YRK-SCA 1549 1T37
1632 SCA-YRK 1723 1T74
1800 YRK-SCA 1849 1T43
2034 SCA-MIA 2324 1P94

Set 2
0819 MAN-SCA 1053 1E27
1132 SCA-YRK 1223 1T64
1300 YRK-SCA 1349 1T33
1432 SCA-YRK 1523 1T70
1600 YRK-SCA 1649 1T39
1732 SCA-YRK 1823 1T76
1900 YRK-SCA 1949 1T45

Set 3
1034 SCA-YRK 1125 1T62
1200 YRK-SCA 1249 1T31
1534 SCA-YRK 1625 1T72
1700 YRK-SCA 1749 1T41
1934 SCA-YRK 2025 1P92
2200 YRK-SCA 2249 1T51

Hopefully a fourth, fifth etc. gets added over the course of the year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Looks like two diagrams are 3 coaches instead of 5 today. TPE uplifted their timetable last week instead of leaving it until May (but I think further uplifts are planned in May) - maybe this is the reason they can't substitute 6 coaches on one or both diagrams? 6x185 is about the same or a shade over the capacity of Nova 3.
 
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Watershed

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Hopefully a fourth, fifth etc. gets added over the course of the year.
I wouldn't get your expectations too high I'm afraid. Until the government stops recommending social distancing etc., the traction training required to utilise additional sets is going to continue to progress at a glacial pace.

Looks like two diagrams are 3 coaches instead of 5 today.
Two failures and no spare available. A very unfortunate situation given there are 5 sets sitting in storage.

TPE uplifted their timetable last week instead of leaving it until May (but I think further uplifts are planned in May)
To be clear, it was a reversion to the December 2020 timetable, which is itself a fair reduction compared to the pre-Covid timetable. There are no planned increases in May, any increases will happen in September at the earliest.

maybe this is the reason they can't substitute 6 coaches on one or both diagrams?
It's simply down to where there are spare units available. There are no spare 68 sets kept at Scarborough, so if there is a failure then a booked double 185 will typically need to be split in half to provide a unit to cover.
 

BoroAndy

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I wouldn't get your expectations too high I'm afraid. Until the government stops recommending social distancing etc., the traction training required to utilise additional sets is going to continue to progress at a glacial pace.


Two failures and no spare available. A very unfortunate situation given there are 5 sets sitting in storage.


To be clear, it was a reversion to the December 2020 timetable, which is itself a fair reduction compared to the pre-Covid timetable. There are no planned increases in May, any increases will happen in September at the earliest.


It's simply down to where there are spare units available. There are no spare 68 sets kept at Scarborough, so if there is a failure then a booked double 185 will typically need to be split in half to provide a unit to cover.
Maybe time a spare nova3 was kept at Scarborough, plenty of platforms. And it's not as though every unit has to go to Longsight every day.
 

Watershed

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Maybe time a spare nova3 was kept at Scarborough, plenty of platforms. And it's not as though every unit has to go to Longsight every day.
Unfortunately there are various reasons why this cannot happen, although I would agree it would be a pragmatic solution given current failure rates.
 

Jamesrob637

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Looks like more failures today. How long before defeat is admitted that these trains are not reliable?
 

Roger B

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Looks like more failures today. How long before defeat is admitted that these trains are not reliable?
Sent a Nova3 to Scarborough
It rolled right down the track.
But the very same evening
They sent our Nova3 back

Return to depot, faults unknown
No such error codes, no such zone
There were lots of rattles, things becoming loose
And the longer we run them, they just keep getting worse.

We fixed it and tested it,
Seemed to go okay
But only for a mile or two
And then it broke down again

Return to CAF, cheap as ****,
We’re out of money, we’re out of luck,
They’re costing us thousands, just can’t get them done
Would’ve been so much cheaper to have bought more Nova1s

(with apologies to Elvis Presley)
 
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CW2

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The lack of Nova 3s for the past couple of days is probably related to them being withdrawn for inspection after a yaw damper failure on a Northern CAF unit.
Railway Gazette link
 

Fokx

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Looks like more failures today. How long before defeat is admitted that these trains are not reliable?

One of the ‘failures’ is to do with the fact yesterday’s 185 stays at Scarborough overnight and is used on today’s service.

It’s nothing new, it’s been like that since December
 

VauxhallNova

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Looks like more failures today. How long before defeat is admitted that these trains are not reliable?
Do you think these are similar to the 802s in that sense?

Didn't the Mk5As in fact have a higher reliability for a while?
 

HST43257

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Not sure if this has been covered yet, but does anyone have 68 diagrams from the new timetable change next weekend?
 

Jamesrob637

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Does a Mk5 set work to Redcar on Sundays? This small excerpt from Journey Check:

Facilities on the 11:05 Redcar Central to Manchester Airport due 14:12.
Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 5.
 

Watershed

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Does a Mk5 set work to Redcar on Sundays? This small excerpt from Journey Check:

Facilities on the 11:05 Redcar Central to Manchester Airport due 14:12.
Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 5.
No, that's just a typo. All Redcars are booked a double 185, i.e. 6 coaches. Mk5s are not authorised for Redcars yet.
 

Jamesrob637

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No, that's just a typo. All Redcars are booked a double 185, i.e. 6 coaches. Mk5s are not authorised for Redcars yet.

Thanks! Knew that was the case Mondays to Saturdays but wasn't sure whether Sundays are different. Makes sense to not have to cancel Newcastles, but rather still operate them as 3-car freed up from Redcars.
 

xotGD

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There is a feature on this evening's Look North about people complaining about the noise from 68s in Scarborough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The chap from TPE indicated that something would be done in the next 6 weeks to address the overnight noise issue. Sets no longer stabled at Scarborough?
 
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