Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[BayPaul]

IMHO by the time you need to rely on niche spaces for knees you have created a train where seats are too close together / densely packed. Again not a feature in my car that I need to think about when choosing how to travel....and cars are getting bigger or so it seems to me.

But as I understand it they aren't relying on this niche space. I've seen hundreds of complaints about seat hardnesson 80x trains on here, but I don't think I've seen a single complaint about seat spacing from someone who has been on the trains, so I really don't think seating density is something you need to worry about!

 

[Bletchleyite]

IMHO by the time you need to rely on niche spaces for knees you have created a train where seats are too close together / densely packed. Again not a feature in my car that I need to think about when choosing how to travel....and cars are getting bigger or so it seems to me.

The rest of the 80x don't, mainly because a considerable benefit (there is one! ) of Fainsa's finest is that the back is very thin. FISA LEANs are quite thick backed, so need the "niche".

To give an example, Northern's 158 refurb with ironing boards has very close to the same layout as the originals (only varied to provide priority seats), yet the originals have very poor legroom and the refurbs excellent.

 

[WesternLancer]

But as I understand it they aren't relying on this niche space. I've seen hundreds of complaints about seat hardnesson 80x trains on here, but I don't think I've seen a single complaint about seat spacing from someone who has been on the trains, so I really don't think seating density is something you need to worry about!

I hope so!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2021 ==

The rest of the 80x don't, mainly because a considerable benefit (there is one! ) of Fainsa's finest is that the back is very thin. FISA LEANs are quite thick backed, so need the "niche".

To give an example, Northern's 158 refurb with ironing boards has very close to the same layout as the originals (only varied to provide priority seats), yet the originals have very poor legroom and the refurbs excellent.

Glad to hear that.

 

[Domh245]

Weren't there claims the 810s would have more seats than the 800/802s, despite the shorter vehicle length though?

I don't remember seeing any claims about having more seats, but comparing an 810 to a GWR layout 800/2 there's only a 14 seat difference, and some of that will come from a relatively larger provision of 1st class seats on the 810 (44 v 36)

They beat the LNER layout 5 coach IEPs, which seat 302 (48/254) but those units lose a number of seats to the buffet

 

[RealTrains07]

EMR have released a new video.

Bit misleading saying that the fleet hasnt been replaced since the 80s considering the meridians were brought in much more recently than that.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Bit misleading saying that the fleet hasnt been replaced since the 80s considering the meridians were brought in much more recently than that.

Yeah, but they said the entire fleet not just part of it.

 

[samuelmorris]

This is Abellio we're talking out. Massively overselling upgrades is their MO

 

[py_megapixel]

This is Abellio we're talking out. Massively overselling upgrades is their MO

To be fair, the upgrade from a falling-apart 153 to a brand new 3-car FLIRT is a pretty big one...

 

[greatvoyager]

To be fair, the upgrade from a falling-apart 153 to a brand new 3-car FLIRT is a pretty big one...

True, not to mention it should make the fleet more streamlined.

 

[43066]

Are they still planning to stay on diesel south of Bedford until the OLE has been upgraded? I'd hope however that they can at least start out and accelerate from St Pancras on OLE before dropping the pan, somewhere around Hendon I guess.

Diesel under the wires South of Bedford (subject to modification of OHLE), hotel power at St Pancras to be drawn from the overheads, is the current ambition.

Speculating here but, based on other class 8xx operation, this will presumably require a period of engine pre-warming prior to departure, but will at least avoid the current situation of 222s idling between trips.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you've got 25kV to hand, having an electric engine preheat seems the obvious answer there. The 80x do generally, don't they?

 

[py_megapixel]

Diesel under the wires South of Bedford (subject to modification of OHLE), hotel power at St Pancras to be drawn from the overheads, is the current ambition.

Speculating here but, based on other class 8xx operation, this will presumably require a period of engine pre-warming prior to departure, but will at least avoid the current situation of 222s idling between trips.

Does this mean that the 810s won't use the OHLE for traction power at all in the first instance?

 

[43066]

If you've got 25kV to hand, having an electric engine preheat seems the obvious answer there. The 80x do generally, don't they?

I have no idea, but that would certainly make sense, if it’s possible.

Does this mean that the 810s won't use the OHLE for traction power at all in the first instance?

Certainly not south of Bedford. Whether pans will be raised for the stretch between Bedford and Kettering (only twenty odd miles) is also an unknown at this stage.

 

[hexagon789]

Diesel under the wires South of Bedford (subject to modification of OHLE), hotel power at St Pancras to be drawn from the overheads, is the current ambition.

Speculating here but, based on other class 8xx operation, this will presumably require a period of engine pre-warming prior to departure, but will at least avoid the current situation of 222s idling between trips.

I've seen suggestions they will run electric to Cricklewood then switch to diesel

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2021 ==

Does this mean that the 810s won't use the OHLE for traction power at all in the first instance?

Again I've read that they would run on OLE out of St Pancras until where linespeed rises above 100mph which is in the region of Cricklewood iirc

 

[AM9]

I've seen suggestions they will run electric to Cricklewood then switch to diesel

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2021 ==


Again I've read that they would run on OLE out of St Pancras until where linespeed rises above 100mph which is in the region of Cricklewood iirc

Which might help inner London a bit but if it's a shortcoming of the headspan OLE, when will that be fixed? Apart from the unnecessary CO2 creation, why should Hendon, Mill Hill and Borehamwood have to suffer elevated pollution and noise levels when the infrastructure is there?

 

[Roast Veg]

Certainly not south of Bedford. Whether pans will be raised for the stretch between Bedford and Kettering (only twenty odd miles) is also an unknown at this stage.

I've seen suggestions they will run electric to Cricklewood then switch to diesel

Again I've read that they would run on OLE out of St Pancras until where linespeed rises above 100mph which is in the region of Cricklewood iirc

Of these two possibilities, the former is the simplest from an infratructure wear and staff training perspective, but the latter is more deisrable from an environmental (and perhaps fuel cost, though negligable) perspective. I'm sure both have been looked at extensively, and Network Rail will have their preference.

 

[londonmidland]

Which might help inner London a bit but if it's a shortcoming of the headspan OLE

If I remember correctly the headspan OLE is 125mph capable, however the single masts aren't. Something to do with the max amount of travel it allows vertically as the pantograph pushes it up I think.

 

[AM9]

If I remember correctly the headspan OLE is 125mph capable, however the single masts aren't. Something to do with the max amount of travel it allows vertically as the pantograph pushes it up I think.

I was passing the stretch where the MML runs parallel to the M1 on Wednesday and realised then that most of the OLE supports there are single cantilevers with shorter masts, i.e. the distance between the horizontal catenary support arm and angled registration arm, is quite small. Here is a picture I've found:
https://live.staticflickr.com/1783/28055121327_e920dc3e1c_b.jpg
I imagine that the vertical compliance would need to be constrained because there couldn't be much sag. Would it need more conventional geometry single track masts to be installed from scratch?

 

[Edvid]

Shallow registration arms on single cantilevers are just one aspect. The bigger issue is the MK3b wire runs, which are only tensioned for 100mph running; mechanically independent arrangements may also be required at crossovers between Radlett and Bedford South Junctions inclusive (which means replacing headspans with portals).

What exactly needs doing, how much it'll cost and whether TPTB will pay for it is still unknown AFAIAA.

There's some explanation in this portion of the MML Electrification updates thread.

 

[hexagon789]

Which might help inner London a bit but if it's a shortcoming of the headspan OLE, when will that be fixed? Apart from the unnecessary CO2 creation, why should Hendon, Mill Hill and Borehamwood have to suffer elevated pollution and noise levels when the infrastructure is there?

It's certainly not ideal, but running electric for at least a proportion of the journey to Bedford is better than nothing I suppose

Of these two possibilities, the former is the simplest from an infratructure wear and staff training perspective, but the latter is more deisrable from an environmental (and perhaps fuel cost, though negligable) perspective. I'm sure both have been looked at extensively, and Network Rail will have their preference.

It was my understanding the latter was going to be the arrangement, but I've not seen any firm confirmation

 

[Master29]

The 9 car Meridians were around for about a year and a half, and were rather offset by the fact that all the other Meridians were only 4 cars long..

Worthing noting though that the seating capacity of a 5 car 810 at 312 seats (268/44) is only 38 down on the current 7 car meridian seating (244/106), and that around half of the trains formed of 810s will run as pairs - for around 624 seats (88/536) which dwarfs anything that's run before..

I thought it was a 254/47 seating ratio? 268/44 would seem to indicate pretty dense seating with fewer tables considering the reduced carriage length.

 

[Domh245]

I thought it was a 254/47 seating ratio? 268/44 would seem to indicate pretty dense seating with fewer tables considering the reduced carriage length.

Yes, apologies I was taking the 268/44 from the franchise agreement whilst the series of articles that came out earlier this year quote the 254/47. That said there's only a 14 seat difference between the two standard capacities, 4 (at least, possibly 8) of which would come from a seeming enlarged first class section in the composite coach. I'd expect similar layouts to the rest of the Hitachi 80x, with the 2m difference in vehicle lengths mostly coming from between the doors & vehicle ends compared to the other 80x.

 

[Master29]

Yes, apologies I was taking the 268/44 from the franchise agreement whilst the series of articles that came out earlier this year quote the 254/47. That said there's only a 14 seat difference between the two standard capacities, 4 (at least, possibly 8) of which would come from a seeming enlarged first class section in the composite coach. I'd expect similar layouts to the rest of the Hitachi 80x, with the 2m difference in vehicle lengths mostly coming from between the doors & vehicle ends compared to the other 80x.

Indeed. That is where most of the non window seats are. It always seems rather large on the earlier 800's but I always thought that is down to various equipment. perhaps they're looking to improve on the earlier evolutions of the various 800's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. That is where most of the non window seats are. It always seems rather large on the earlier 800's but I always thought that is down to various equipment. perhaps they're looking to improve on the earlier evolutions of the various 800's.

There are no seats in that bit. The non-window seats are on the other side of the door against the door pocket, which protrudes into the passenger compartment. Stuff like toilets, electrical equipment and bike space are in that end bit so they don't need to intrude into the passenger compartment itself. I guess in these shorter units they will need to.

 

[HSTEd]

How much time would be lost restricting the trains to only 100mph South of Bedford?

 

[Master29]

There are no seats in that bit. The non-window seats are on the other side of the door against the door pocket, which protrudes into the passenger compartment. Stuff like toilets, electrical equipment and bike space are in that end bit so they don't need to intrude into the passenger compartment itself. I guess in these shorter units they will need to.

I wonder if they have a much smaller kitchen than their earlier cousins, hence the ability to squeeze in a few more standard seats.

 

[Pacerman99]

I wonder if they have a much smaller kitchen than their earlier cousins, hence the ability to squeeze in a few more standard seats.

The food preperation area (not a proper kitchen) will be 3m or so long, so about the same size as on the Hull Trains or Transpennine units. The first class seats in particular will be denser than on the 800s, which have generous legroom. Standard class seats will also be denser, and have only 6 bays of 4per carriage as opposed to 8 on an 800.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The food preperation area (not a proper kitchen) will be 3m or so long, so about the same size as on the Hull Trains or Transpennine units. The first class seats in particular will be denser than on the 800s, which have generous legroom.

Do they? They appear to have normal First Class spacing to me, and on the 1 side it is quite poor as they have been unable to resist the temptation to squash in an extra row.

Standard class seats will also be denser, and have only 6 bays of 4per carriage as opposed to 8 on an 800.

That doesn't bode well at all, particularly as the FISA LEAN is a much thicker-backed seat than the Fainsa Sophia (the use of which is why the legroom on other 80x is so good).

I'm getting the feeling I won't like these

 

[Bald Rick]

How much time would be lost restricting the trains to only 100mph South of Bedford?

Not much, and effectively none in the peak. I posted the numbers in a thread somewhere, but can’t find them. It’s about a minute south of Luton, and another couple Luton - Bedford, assuming there’s no pathing time (which there is in the peak, lots).

I can’t help but think there is an easy solution to this.

 

[AM9]

Not much, and effectively none in the peak. I posted the numbers in a thread somewhere, but can’t find them. It’s about a minute south of Luton, and another couple Luton - Bedford, assuming there’s no pathing time (which there is in the peak, lots).

I can’t help but think there is an easy solution to this.

But it won't please those using EWR services who 'need' to get to London 2.5 minutes quicker.