Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[Bigfoot]

Paul Clifton tweeted stating they will be stripped of useful parts and scrapped.

https://twitter.com/PaulCliftonBBC/status/1377555838584389633

For the many who have asked: all the @SW_Help Class 442s will be stripped of anything useful, then scrapped. You won’t see them again. Full story to follow in
@RAIL - I’ve had my personal 442 trophy on the wall for a few years.

 

[Journeyman]

Paul Clifton tweeted stating they will be stripped of useful parts and scrapped.

Can't imagine there's much in them that can be used elsewhere. Are the new traction packages compatible with anything else?

 

[Doomotron]

Can't imagine there's much in them that can be used elsewhere. Are the new traction packages compatible with anything else?

The seats had been modified could probably be used elsewhere, possibly in the 458s.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Paul Clifton tweeted stating they will be stripped of useful parts and scrapped.

I’m guessing the phrase ‘useful parts’ is referring to seating, possibly their new flooring and that’s about it. As any mechanicals couldn’t be used I imagine.

 

[bramling]

So in that case we've now ended up with a better solution with a more modern, accessible fleet. Why are people complaining?

It’s reasonable for people to expect their tax / fares revenue to be spent judiciously. Since using the 458s would have been a viable option from the start, it does seem like someone chose a less-than-optimal solution.

However I do tend to agree that what’s done is done.

 

[Journeyman]

It’s reasonable for people to expect their tax / fares revenue to be spent judiciously. Since using the 458s would have been a viable option from the start, it does seem like someone chose a less-than-optimal solution.

However I do tend to agree that what’s done is done.

You can guarantee that if SWR had chosen 458s from the start, these forums would have been full of howls of protest from those wanting 442s instead.

 

[Wolfie]

442's are too small a fleet to be bothering with. More hassle than they are worth, (unless you re-introduce the bar). The 455/6/8's and 707 are all going because its too many fleets and difficult to diagram crews. The biggest fleet is also the oldest so it makes sense to replace the lot.

Mainline youve got 158, 159 442, 444, 450. Ideally, SWR pre-pandemic probably would have wanted a single fleet here but the Desiros are too new to be replaced but can no longer buy new ones as previously mentioned.

Make operational and economic sense to replace the 442 and 158/159's with a new bi-mode fleet, possibly AT300's or similar would be far better all round.

Re your penultimate para. New Desiros no, but the 350/2s are available, hardly ancient, and can be made DC capable.

 

[antharro]

the 350/2s are available, hardly ancient, and can be made DC capable.

This would make SO much sense. They'd work with SWR's existing fleet and I would suggest that as they'd have a longer lifespan that the money would be better invested.

 

[Journeyman]

This would make SO much sense. They'd work with SWR's existing fleet and I would suggest that as they'd have a longer lifespan that the money would be better invested.

But they need to be fitted with DC traction equipment and have all the seats replaced. I strongly suspect they were offered the 458s on a deal they couldn't refuse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A sensible, integrated railway that owned all its stock would reseat the 350/2s to 2+2, keep them at LNR, and transfer 350/1s to SWR instead.

 

[Journeyman]

A sensible, integrated railway that owned all its stock would reseat the 350/2s to 2+2, keep them at LNR, and transfer 350/1s to SWR instead.

What's with this obsession with 350s? It isn't happening.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Since using the 458s would have been a viable option from the start, it does seem like someone chose a less-than-optimal solution

It wasn’t optimal in terms of meeting the franchise contract - the terms of the franchise required additional mainline capacity far sooner than any of the existing South West Suburban fleets could be replaced to provide it.

You can argue about the merits of the specification but that’s what DfT specified.

 

[Energy]

A sensible, integrated railway that owned all its stock would reseat the 350/2s to 2+2, keep them at LNR, and transfer 350/1s to SWR instead.

No it wouldn't, it would keep all the 350s (and 360s) at LNWR.

I'm sort of surprised they didn't replace the 442s at the time of the slam door replacement given the electrical equipment being of a similar age.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's with this obsession with 350s? It isn't happening.

Because they are modern, quality units and not replacing old junk with slightly less old junk?

 

[Journeyman]

No it wouldn't, it would keep all the 350s (and 360s) at LNWR.

I'm sort of surprised they didn't replace the 442s at the time of the slam door replacement given the electrical equipment being of a similar age.

A bigger fleet of 444s certainly would have saved a lot of bother later on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A bigger fleet of 444s certainly would have saved a lot of bother later on.

Certainly true.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Absolutely true. I think unfortunately that a lot of enthusiasts have elevated the Mark 3 design to a mythical status it's never really deserved, and certainly doesn't deserve now. Although the 442s dealt with some of the worst problems with Mark 3s, and although they were a huge improvement on the knackered REPs and TCs, in true Southern style they were the last 23m, end door Mark 3 vehicles built, and the design was showing its age.

I now get extremely annoyed by people waxing lyrical about how great Mark 3s are, because the design is close to 50 years old, and the advances in design, accessibility, comfort, efficiency and reliability since then have been enormous. Yes, you can make Mark 3s comfortable to travel in, but to say they're truly fit for purpose in 2021 is getting on for delusional.

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The 350s are 3+2 and AC only.

They only need shoegear adding and cabling to the front end of the traction converters as its same traction package.

PS: I can let them know where they can find a few shoebeams that are no longer needed

 

[fgwrich]

Because they are modern, quality units and not replacing old junk with slightly less old junk?

Agree there. This conversion making the rather awful Juniper fleet the newfound Triggers Broom (from 4 car to 5 car to 4 car, outer suburban to inner suburban to outer suburban / express etc). Taking the fleet of 350s, with suitable conversion, would at least give SWR a more standardised EMU fleet of Desiros and 701s. I have to wonder how the costs would stack up either, converting and re-fitting the 350s to DC operation + modifications of the interior + Siemens Desiro Maintenance vs Conversion and refurbishment + maintenance of the Juniper fleet. But, then again, this is SWR / the DFTs money.

Presumably Porterbrook still must have ideas for them that we await to see, other than "FLEXX".

 

[bramling]

You can guarantee that if SWR had chosen 458s from the start, these forums would have been full of howls of protest from those wanting 442s instead.

Indeed. The more relevant question though is whether there would have been howls or protest from the end users on the Portsmouth Direct line.

FWIW I get the feeling the 442s weren’t wonderfully popular, it seems in reality the punters have never been happy since they lost the 444s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Apr 2021 ==

It wasn’t optimal in terms of meeting the franchise contract - the terms of the franchise required additional mainline capacity far sooner than any of the existing South West Suburban fleets could be replaced to provide it.

You can argue about the merits of the specification but that’s what DfT specified.

Fair point. It’s certainly true to say most people expected the 442s to be up and running much sooner.

 

[RealTrains07]

But they need to be fitted with DC traction equipment and have all the seats replaced. I strongly suspect they were offered the 458s on a deal they couldn't refuse.

Especially considering porterbrook also own the 350/2s as well. They could have been on the table but its like you said this must have been a deal that couldnt have been missed

 

[Wolfie]

And now they've finally been made more reliable, it's all going to waste. Couldn't make it up.!

Made more reliable? The damned things don't work!

 

[northernbelle]

To my mind having ex-LNWR Class 350s would have made the most sense in practical terms though I suspect the deal offered for the 458s is probably what has swung it. With a proper interior reconfiguration, the 458s have the potential to be a better experience than a 450.

Remember the 458s would likely have gone for scrap once finished with SWR, so getting some additional income on an ongoing basis is probably a winner for Porterbrook.

 

[Fincra5]

There's a lot of circles " 458s would have been better in the first place" ... they weren't available at the time when 442s were needed for the franchise and passenger levels etc..

Sure you could say 350/2 would be more suitable but thye need coverting to DC, 2+2 seating and so on. Probably more cost and effort than a fleet for 458s that already exist. Also 458s are likely to be available for refurbishment sooner than 350/2s..

It's all up to DfT, not this forum

 

[spark001uk]

Paul Clifton tweeted stating they will be stripped of useful parts and scrapped.

He also tweeted saying the 458s will be converted from 3+2 seats to 2+2.!!

 

[43096]

Because they are modern, quality units and not replacing old junk with slightly less old junk?

The 458s are not “junk” and are only around 8 or 9 years older than the 350/2s. They are also don’t need voltage conversion, unlike the 350s.

I suspect, though, this is more to do with your Grammer fetish.

 

[Wolfie]

The 458s are not “junk” and are only around 8 or 9 years older than the 350/2s. They are also don’t need voltage conversion, unlike the 350s.

I suspect, though, this is more to do with your Grammer fetish.

The 458s have been less than reliable since the 5 car conversion, have been badly maintained since SWR initially planned to get rid of them, and some insiders have hinted that there may be deeper underlying problems. Hopefully none of those is a serious problem.
Given that DC Desiros have been operating with SWT/SWR for years l seriously doubt that "voltage conversion" for the 350/2s is that big a deal.

 

[Bigfoot]

He also tweeted saying the 458s will be converted from 3+2 seats to 2+2.!!

Haha. I didn't spot that one!

 

[Bessie]

458's are already 2+2 with some 1+1 seating by the doors for extra standing capacity. I expect all of these to be replaced (seats are worn out/damaged) and hopefully the existing 442 seats can be fitted into these units. Can the Axminster carpet get used as well?

 

[Bigfoot]

458's are already 2+2 with some 1+1 seating by the doors for extra standing capacity. I expect all of these to be replaced (seats are worn out/damaged) and hopefully the existing 442 seats can be fitted into these units. Can the Axminster carpet get used as well?

Given the carpet will have holes in it from all the seats and have been cut around the floor fixtures dividers etc I doubt it will be reusable. Also Axminster will be more than happy to produce another run of carpet.

 

[Goldfish62]

458's are already 2+2 with some 1+1 seating by the doors for extra standing capacity. I expect all of these to be replaced (seats are worn out/damaged) and hopefully the existing 442 seats can be fitted into these units. Can the Axminster carpet get used as well?

Yes, the seats didn't get new foam or covers during the 5-car project so it would make good sense to replace them with seats that have already been done, and which already have armrests.

The numerous metro-style vertical grab poles aren't really appropriate for longer distance trains, and again the seats from the 442s would come equipped with grab handles.