Caledonian Sleeper

[Essexman]

On a brighter note, have you noticed that Flexipass balances originally extended to June are now good through to December 2021?

I hadn’t. That’s good news, thanks.

 

[cambsy]

the sleeper having a bit of a time of it lately, with several partially cancelled services, Last nights sleepers Mon 8th Feb, both cancelled Edinburgh-Inverness and vv, and looks like a set is left over in Inverness, so a bit of arranging to do, is this all weather related or problems with stock or traction?.

 

[InOban]

Another train failed at Carrbridge yesterday afternoon. Nothing to do with CS.

 

[FQTV]

CS have another IT issue now. Fort William trains shown as fully booked for most of August whereas last week they showed plenty of availability.
CS have reported it to their IT department.
They changed my room for June booking as room selector on website is still down.
CS do seem to get a lot of IT issues.

Good news: the website room selector is working again.
Bad news: there are currently only two bookable dates for the Fort William service for the whole of the coming year - 25th and 26th March 2021 (ie the two first dates of planned-to-be-restarted operations). It could be that 'fixing' August is causing this problem on an interim basis, of course.

 

[MrEd]

Good news: the website room selector is working again.
Bad news: there are currently only two bookable dates for the Fort William service for the whole of the coming year - 25th and 26th March 2021 (ie the two first dates of planned-to-be-restarted operations). It could be that 'fixing' August is causing this problem on an interim basis, of course.

I hope this gets fixed soon. I don’t want to sound pessimistic but I don’t hold out a lot of hope for the Fort William service (or any of the other sections which were suspended after Christmas) restarting in late March. Late May would be my guess, but we’ll see.

 

[FQTV]

I hope this gets fixed soon. I don’t want to sound pessimistic but I don’t hold out a lot of hope for the Fort William service (or any of the other sections which were suspended after Christmas) restarting in late March. Late May would be my guess, but we’ll see.

My feeling is that late March is ambitious for a restart, but Easter School Holiday is one of those fixed points that always drive targetting for planning. Late May would then potentially also miss another fixed point: half term.

As we’ve seen throughout, it’ll probably be when we reach preceding fixed points, particularly the English review on the 22nd February, and the proposed reopening of some schools in Scotland at the same time, that we get a better idea.

One thing that has occurred to me for the coming year is whether Caledonian Sleeper should really look at its ticketing terms, though.

They are unusually ‘binary’; customers have only two options, of either full payment, no changes, no refunds -or- full payment, free changes, full refund.

Indeed, for Caledonian Double, only one option is offered: fully changeable and refundable.

The issues here are that there’s almost no incentive for a fixed ticket holder to do anything other than no-show if they can’t travel, leaving rooms empty, and flexible ticket holders can pull out up to two days before departure, leaving those rooms empty too - in the latter case with all revenue lost and little opportunity to resell.

I’ve no idea if this has already happened on occasion, but I can see it being a risk in future, especially given that certain occupancy combinations mean that the price difference between fixed and flexible is not all that great.

 

[paul1609]

That weekend March 28 is also when the clocks go forward and that is in when the West Highland passengers (especially Southbound) normally surge in my experience but i guess we will just have to wait and see this year.

 

[BRX]

I can see there being enormous demand for the sleeper as soon as restrictions are lifted... lots of people with visits postponed from Christmas, lots of people doing UK rather than overseas holidays, lots of people keen on a mode of transport that's about as low risk as you can get and which doesn't require wearing a mask the whole way. Myself I'm hoping for a trip in May/June, which might of course turn out not to be possible but if it is, I won't be surprised to find the sleeper fully booked out quite rapidly after being made available.

 

[Ianno87]

I can see there being enormous demand for the sleeper as soon as restrictions are lifted... lots of people with visits postponed from Christmas, lots of people doing UK rather than overseas holidays, lots of people keen on a mode of transport that's about as low risk as you can get and which doesn't require wearing a mask the whole way. Myself I'm hoping for a trip in May/June, which might of course turn out not to be possible but if it is, I won't be surprised to find the sleeper fully booked out quite rapidly after being made available.

Cally Sleeper could be onto a winner if they do some canny (if carefully worded) marketing about the requirement not to need masks in cabins, and effectively having "private space", for people still concerned about such things.

 

[John Bishop]

1M16 showing cancelled from Inverness tonight.

 

[PG]

Cally Sleeper could be onto a winner if they do some canny (if carefully worded) marketing about the requirement not to need masks in cabins, and effectively having "private space", for people still concerned about such things.

Hmm I wonder if there political masters would permit them to do that though given that they seem to want to control the messaging, and CS being at odds with the overall message would be frowned upon?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hmm I wonder if there political masters would permit them to do that though given that they seem to want to control the messaging, and CS being at odds with the overall message would be frowned upon?

They do at least mention it on their website on the virus page https://www.sleeper.scot/coronavirus-covid-19/ :

In line with Government guidance, all guests are asked to wear a face covering when in the station environment and on train. Guests are not required to wear a face covering when inside their own room on board, however face masks are required on board in public areas.

 

[PG]

They do at least mention it on their website on the virus page https://www.sleeper.scot/coronavirus-covid-19/ :



View attachment 90388

To be fair, yes they do, but I think @Ianno87 was suggesting something more visible is whats needed.

 

[alistairlees]

Good news: the website room selector is working again.
Bad news: there are currently only two bookable dates for the Fort William service for the whole of the coming year - 25th and 26th March 2021 (ie the two first dates of planned-to-be-restarted operations). It could be that 'fixing' August is causing this problem on an interim basis, of course.

The rooms to Fort William are back again for the majority of dates from 25th March onwards.

 

[FQTV]

The rooms to Fort William are back again for the majority of dates from 25th March onwards.

They are indeed, and interestingly, for all the dates that I've checked so far, all loaded fares are flexible - but generally at levels that I'd previously have expected to be the 'fixed' level.

Although it will tie your money up, this could be a good time for those considering a Summer trip to Fort William to grab availability and maintain the option of cancelling for a full refund until twelve noon, two days before the date of booked journey arrival.

 

[LeylandLen]

All the previuous posts seem to do with going to/from Inverness, /Fort William,that is with the Highlander. No doubt The Lowlander (Eus to Edinburgh.Glasgow will be reinstated one day ; it would take pressure off Highlander.

 

[AberdeenBill]

New to this forum but fairly regular user of the Caley Sleeper over the past 5 years or so (circa 6 trips per year) having not used it since the mid eighties prior to that. Some great posts on here. Anyway, given the announcements by both the UK and Scottish governments last week (albeit the Scottish one appeared to be less definitive on dates), when do others think that the Lowlander and Highlander portion to Aberdeen (for 'non essential' use) is likely to be reinstated? I have a (twice previously pushed back) booking for 21 May. I think this may be touch & go although Boris announced that UK holidays with self contained accommodation can commence 12 April at earliest and that hotels and B&Bs can reopen no earlier than 17 May.

 

[31160]

Hello all a few weekends the Glasgow portion is showing diverted via Shotts due to work in the Motherwell area, am i right to assume that when this happens the Glasgow bit goes to Edinburgh and gets joined up there?

 

[92002]

Hello all a few weekends the Glasgow portion is showing diverted via Shotts due to work in the Motherwell area, am i right to assume that when this happens the Glasgow bit goes to Edinburgh and gets joined up there?

The Glasgow Lowlander has not run in many moths. Its only the Edinburgh portion. Glasgow passengers should use the Fort William Highlander from Queen Street instead.

 

[31160]

The Glasgow Lowlander has not run in many moths. Its only the Edinburgh portion. Glasgow passengers should use the Fort William Highlander from Queen Street instead.

No this isnt until May

 

[TimboM]

Hello all a few weekends the Glasgow portion is showing diverted via Shotts due to work in the Motherwell area, am i right to assume that when this happens the Glasgow bit goes to Edinburgh and gets joined up there?

Assuming it's Sunday nights, then the Sleepers are already running via ECML on Sunday nights in May.

This means for 1M11 (assuming everything is running by then) the Glasgow portion runs across to Edinburgh and joins with the Edinburgh portion (which has run out earlier as ECS) there, before heading east out of Waverley to go via ECML to Wembley and then Euston.

1S26 is the reverse - i.e. full train to Edinburgh via reverse at Wembley and ECML, Edinburgh portion is split off there and Glasgow portion then carries on west out of Waverley onto Glasgow.

Not too complicated therefore to run via Shotts rather than Carstairs when it's diverted via ECML.

 

[MrEd]

New to this forum but fairly regular user of the Caley Sleeper over the past 5 years or so (circa 6 trips per year) having not used it since the mid eighties prior to that. Some great posts on here. Anyway, given the announcements by both the UK and Scottish governments last week (albeit the Scottish one appeared to be less definitive on dates), when do others think that the Lowlander and Highlander portion to Aberdeen (for 'non essential' use) is likely to be reinstated? I have a (twice previously pushed back) booking for 21 May. I think this may be touch & go although Boris announced that UK holidays with self contained accommodation can commence 12 April at earliest and that hotels and B&Bs can reopen no earlier than 17 May.

Everything’s a bit up in the air at the moment. You will need to look at government announcements nearer the time to see what sort of domestic travel is allowed in late May- this will inform how CS reacts to serve the market that is likely to exist at the time. If I were to give you an answer I would merely be speculating. Certainly the Inverness and Edinburgh services will be running then, but I’m not sure about Glasgow or Aberdeen. Even though free travel was allowed last summer the Aberdeen portion was not reinstated until late October (only to be withdrawn again a week later after England went into lockdown a second time). This may have had something to do with the line closure after the tragic accident at Stonehaven, but then again, it also took until well into autumn for the Glasgow section to be reinstated, as projected demand for that portion during the summer of 2020 was very low. CS will look at expected demand for the service and plan which portions to reinstate based on that. Obviously the Fort William one will be the big one to reinstate once domestic tourism (above and beyond a self-contained self-catering holiday, which is unlikely to generate much demand for the sleeper) returns. No one is quite sure when that is, it will probably be at some point in late May but everything is subject to change at short notice.

I wouldn’t put your life savings on the Aberdeen section returning in time for 21 May but I don’t think it’s an impossibility either.

 

[221129]

the Aberdeen portion was not reinstated until late October

Which of course was only because of the fact the line was shut.

 

[6Z09]

Which of course was only because of the fact the line was shut.

Yes, but there is no disputing the fact that the Aberdeen portion is by far the least well used part of the whole operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but there is no disputing the fact that the Aberdeen portion is by far the least well used part of the whole operation.

It certainly is, which is interesting as in years gone by it wasn't. There's a not unreasonable argument that the operation should be flipped around, with the Fort William getting a through service and longer train, and the Aberdeen just a couple of coaches taken off at Edinburgh.

 

[AberdeenBill]

Everything’s a bit up in the air at the moment. You will need to look at government announcements nearer the time to see what sort of domestic travel is allowed in late May- this will inform how CS reacts to serve the market that is likely to exist at the time. If I were to give you an answer I would merely be speculating. Certainly the Inverness and Edinburgh services will be running then, but I’m not sure about Glasgow or Aberdeen. Even though free travel was allowed last summer the Aberdeen portion was not reinstated until late October (only to be withdrawn again a week later after England went into lockdown a second time). This may have had something to do with the line closure after the tragic accident at Stonehaven, but then again, it also took until well into autumn for the Glasgow section to be reinstated, as projected demand for that portion during the summer of 2020 was very low. CS will look at expected demand for the service and plan which portions to reinstate based on that. Obviously the Fort William one will be the big one to reinstate once domestic tourism (above and beyond a self-contained self-catering holiday, which is unlikely to generate much demand for the sleeper) returns. No one is quite sure when that is, it will probably be at some point in late May but everything is subject to change at short notice.

I wouldn’t put your life savings on the Aberdeen section returning in time for 21 May but I don’t think it’s an impossibility either.

Thanks for response which is pretty similar to my own view. Ticket availability appears to be showing from 29 April on CS website but that definitely wont happen. Aberdeen does not have the same tourist pull as Fort William or Inverness and the business demand isn't likely to have returned by May with the combination of oil sector downturn and others still working from home and avoiding business travel. When there was no availability once in summer 2019 i took a day train on ECML leaving Euston at about 6:00am and arriving in Aberdeen about 13:30 with a change at Edinburgh. Quite a pleasant trip but eats too much into your day / weekend compared to a 7:40 arrival with a full day ahead.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Yes, but there is no disputing the fact that the Aberdeen portion is by far the least well used part of the whole operation.

I've not used the sleeper for years but I'd be surprised if there is not a seasonal imbalance to it in normal times. In winter a 4 - 2 split in favour of Aberdeen, in summer potentially the reverse and with some 3 / 3 splits in the shoulders of the fairly short summer period & at other busy weekends. So over the year full year, assuming such capacity broadly matches demand Aberdeen would be a bit ahead.

I'm sure someone will be able to confirm how the split normally works and varies through the year but I was under the impression more than three to FW was very much the exception.

The Aberdeen market has obviously collapsed to a greater extent than other routes when in the 70s/80s Aberdeen had three down and two up trains with sleepers, fourteen sleeping cars in total in 73/74, still significantly less than either Edinburgh or Glasgow but more than Inverness, whilst Fort William of course only got two sleeping cars - often full in summer but sometime sparsely used in winter - except at summer weekends when four were provided up to an including 1979 but then not for many years after that.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I've not used the sleeper for years but I'd be surprised if there is not a seasonal imbalance to it in normal times. In winter a 4 - 2 split in favour of Aberdeen, in summer potentially the reverse and with some 3 / 3 splits in the shoulders of the fairly short summer period & at other busy weekends. So over the year full year, assuming such capacity broadly matches demand Aberdeen would be a bit ahead.

I'm sure someone will be able to confirm how the split normally works and varies through the year but I was under the impression more than three to FW was very much the exception.

The Aberdeen market has obviously collapsed to a greater extent than other routes when in the 70s/80s Aberdeen had three down and two up trains with sleepers, fourteen sleeping cars in total in 73/74, still significantly less than either Edinburgh or Glasgow but more than Inverness, whilst Fort William of course only got two sleeping cars - often full in summer but sometime sparsely used in winter - except at summer weekends when four were provided up to an including 1979 but then not for many years after that.

In recent but pre-Covid summers the split was 4 to Fort Bill and 2 to Aberdeen.

Logic would almost dictate the Aberdeen became a portion off the Lowland as that would offer far more realistic arrival times in Fife and Dundee than present and might increase it’s custom.

 

[AberdeenBill]

I've not used the sleeper for years but I'd be surprised if there is not a seasonal imbalance to it in normal times. In winter a 4 - 2 split in favour of Aberdeen, in summer potentially the reverse and with some 3 / 3 splits in the shoulders of the fairly short summer period & at other busy weekends. So over the year full year, assuming such capacity broadly matches demand Aberdeen would be a bit ahead.

I'm sure someone will be able to confirm how the split normally works and varies through the year but I was under the impression more than three to FW was very much the exception.

The Aberdeen market has obviously collapsed to a greater extent than other routes when in the 70s/80s Aberdeen had three down and two up trains with sleepers, fourteen sleeping cars in total in 73/74, still significantly less than either Edinburgh or Glasgow but more than Inverness, whilst Fort William of course only got two sleeping cars - often full in summer but sometime sparsely used in winter - except at summer weekends when four were provided up to an including 1979 but then not for many years after that.

Slightly off topic but continuing on the theme of decline in the market since the 70's as referred to by Cheshire Scot, i was interested to read that before flights were generally affordable and the motorway system was in its infancy, that in the early 1960's there were no less than 15 Scottish sleeper services leaving London termini on most evenings (hopefully link below works):

Europe by Rail | Anglo-Scottish Night Trains Sixty Years Ago

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In recent but pre-Covid summers the split was 4 to Fort Bill and 2 to Aberdeen.

Logic would almost dictate the Aberdeen became a portion off the Lowland as that would offer far more realistic arrival times in Fife and Dundee than present and might increase it’s custom.

Does that imply 4 Aberdeen for the rest of the year or 3 + 3 or a mixture of both? Fort William is certainly the one which has grown whilst all the others have shrunk.

Good point about Fife and Dundee, probably approaching 50% of the potential market for that portion, and still get to Aberdeen not long after ten (subject to pathing).

in the early 1960's there were no less than 15 Scottish sleeper services leaving London termini on most evenings

And into the 1980s there were still 11, and with a fair chunk of seated accommodation too.