Woodhead Tunnel reopening

[Jorge Da Silva]

Speaking of Dore Curve, in the reality once the Hope Valley improvements are complete, is it expected that the East Midlands service will miss out Sheffield and use Dore Curve? Would be a huge improvement for East Midlands-North West passengers.

No

 

[The Planner]

Speaking of Dore Curve, in the reality once the Hope Valley improvements are complete, is it expected that the East Midlands service will miss out Sheffield and use Dore Curve? Would be a huge improvement for East Midlands-North West passengers.

No chance, reduces the Sheffield North West connectivity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Speaking of Dore Curve, in the reality once the Hope Valley improvements are complete, is it expected that the East Midlands service will miss out Sheffield and use Dore Curve? Would be a huge improvement for East Midlands-North West passengers.

Not so good for Sheffield to North West passengers who’d lose half their service.

 

[Philip]

No chance, reduces the Sheffield North West connectivity.

Yes but that will be replaced by additional new services between Sheffield and Manchester as a result of the Hope Valley upgrade.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes but that will be replaced by additional new services between Sheffield and Manchester as a result of the Hope Valley upgrade.

Where do they fit in the timetable at Sheffiled and Manchester?

 

[Philip]

Where do they fit in the timetable at Sheffiled and Manchester?

Sheffield end a path would be made available by not running the East Midlands service into it. Manchester has spare paths into the main station as a result of the Ordsall Chord.

 

[tbtc]

Manchester has spare paths into the main station as a result of the Ordsall Chord

You mean the ones that were promised to double up Northern's services to Mid Cheshire and Stoke (but ended up not being used because the actual capacity freed up (by removing the Scarborough - Liverpool service from crossing the throat at Piccadilly didn't turn out to be that much, hence only being able to use it for an additional Buxton service)?

 

[The Planner]

Sheffield end a path would be made available by not running the East Midlands service into it. Manchester has spare paths into the main station as a result of the Ordsall Chord.

You mean a path from Dore to Sheffield then. It doesn't miraculously make one to Manchester.

 

[Philip]

As I say the Hope Valley upgrade works will provide new paths anyway, hopefully enough capacity for 3 expresses per hour (so half hourly fast to Sheffield and hourly fast via Dore Curve). These along with the stopping service and the freight path.

 

[johnnychips]

Having recently moved to Sheffield, I realise now that Victoria really is up the ar** end of nowhere, even relative to Midland. This is why ideas to reopen routes to Stocksbridge and directly to Penistone fail.

From post #22

‘Interestingly it [Victoria] is about the same distance away from the University of Sheffield in comparison to Midland’

However there is a 5-an-hour tram from Midland to the University.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Excellent, I can link to my favourite ever website for a speculative idea again! The "about" section is glorious.

Home | The Grand Northern Railway Project

Do you think they would appreciate me sending them a tape measure and a "Railway Gauging for Dummies" book ?

 

[JKF]

If you’re spending the kind of ludicroud money required to put this line back, surely building some way of running it into Victoria won’t actually be that much more of an expense, even if it’s several miles of tunnel or whatever.

 

[MarkyT]

Speaking of Dore Curve, in the reality once the Hope Valley improvements are complete, is it expected that the East Midlands service will miss out Sheffield and use Dore Curve? Would be a huge improvement for East Midlands-North West passengers.

But misses out the significant market of Sheffield...

 

[dosxuk]

Last time I checked, it had had 400kv high power electricity cabling installed through the 1950s "new" Woodhead tunnel.

The power lines are a red-herring for reasons not to use the tunnels for future rail use, simply because they could be moved (or rather, new ones installed) back to the old tunnels. National Grid needed to replace the connections and this could have been done by removing the old ones, cutting off the transpennine link for a number of years. Instead they got permission to put the new lines in the new tunnel and then clearing out the old tunnels once the switch had been made.

They've said they are still maintaining the old tunnels for access and future use, and I remember a statement during the consultation that they would be able to move the connection back if the new tunnel was needed for future transport use.

All the connection being in the new tunnel means is it will be a bit more expensive (depending on the tunnel lease agreements) and take a bit longer to get access. It's not like they've back filled the tunnel, installed a power station in there or used it as a mine entrance. It's a tunnel, being used to carry cables rather than trains right now. That has changed in the past and could change in the future if needed.

 

[Jozhua]

*Bakewell Speculation (Sorry)
In regards to Bakewell, I'd probably guess that it would run as a local service, rather than an express one. Still, it might be faster than the existing journey and passengers to Derby would probably enjoy not having to connect in Sheffield, the only place on planet Earth closest to absolute zero. Probably to get the best speed out of it, reduce the stops on one of the existing Buxton stoppers and then have that 1tph go down onto the Bakewell Line towards Derby. Once on Bakewell, you'd probably only be looking at stopping at Bakewell, Rowsley, Darley Dale and then Matlock.

So taking out Davenport, Woodsmoor, Middlewood, Disley and Furnace Vale, I guess you could conservatively cut down Manchester-Buxton travel times to 45-50 mins. Remember, these stations would still all be served by a stopper every hour. But keeping them in, it would be 56 mins, as usual.
30 mins Buxton - Matlock (Based on it being 20 miles - approx the same as Matlock-Derby, but with less stops, so it may actually take less than this.)
33 mins Matlock - Derby

=~2hours

Best time changing at Sheffield to Derby I've seen quoted is 1hr56. So, this would meet my conservative estimates with all stops on a local service. But, you could probably knock 10-20 mins off the journey times between the two if you were willing to do some more express running on the alternate train.

You know, the more I look at it, the more reinstating Bakewell seems like a great idea. It's not too bendy of an alignment - certainly no HS2, but definitely good enough to run service at a decent 60mph or so. There's 5 miles out of the 20 of functional track in the form of Peak Rail and a Freight Alignment coming out of Buxton. Nothing much built on the alignment either. But even ignoring the Derby - Manchester connectivity, for the towns in the middle - especially Bakewell - this would be absolutely game changing for them. Derbyshire has a surprising lack of connectivity between its North and South, so it would make sense to re-instate. I think that would be better than diverting one of the Sheffield trains straight southward at Dore.
*End of Bakewell Speculation

Hope Valley capacity does need to happen, I think it's probably more realistic than re-opening Woodhead. In regards to long term connectivity between the two, just boring a big tunnel under the Pennines isn't completely infeasible. It's been suggested for a motorway, although obviously it could be cheaper, higher capacity, safer and more eco-friendly if it was just a railway. Woodhead is quite a slow alignment, as much as those tunnels are quite juicy - but they are currently being used for National Grid, which would pose some obstruction, although I'm sure as others have said - not insurmountable.

Unfortunately, a proper tunnel is unlikely and Hope Valley capacity has been rumoured for what, like 5 years now? Still nothing has been done. It is absolutely ridiculous. Was literally an extra platform and a passing loop.

Sheffield also needs a similar job as to what was done in Derby with the remodelling there - the work at Derby really was fantastic and the improvement in speed and reliability is noticeable!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The power lines are a red-herring for reasons not to use the tunnels for future rail use, simply because they could be moved (or rather, new ones installed) back to the old tunnels. National Grid needed to replace the connections and this could have been done by removing the old ones, cutting off the transpennine link for a number of years. Instead they got permission to put the new lines in the new tunnel and then clearing out the old tunnels once the switch had been made.

Not my understanding. Cutting off the National Grid power lines for several years was not an option, the transmission line across that part of the Pennines is too important a part of the grid network to do that.

They've said they are still maintaining the old tunnels for access and future use, and I remember a statement during the consultation that they would be able to move the connection back if the new tunnel was needed for future transport use.

As regards the old Victorian era tunnels, hear that they have deteriorated somewhat in recent years, and are apparently no longer serviceable, as there have been collapses in places. Not sure either how exactly they would be being maintained as you describe, given that the portals have now been sealed up.

 

[D365]

From post #22

‘Interestingly it [Victoria] is about the same distance away from the University of Sheffield in comparison to Midland’

However there is a 5-an-hour tram from Midland to the University.

I'm fairly confident the Midland > Victoria walk isn't as long as Midland > University. For one, Victoria is eight minutes walk from Park Square roundabout, which is five minutes from Midland.

 

[johnnychips]

I'm fairly confident the Midland > Victoria walk isn't as long as Midland > University. For one, Victoria is eight minutes walk from Park Square roundabout, which is five minutes from Midland.

I’m not sure of the point you are trying to make. If you want to go from Midland to University, there is a frequent tram if you don’t want to walk, whereas there isn’t from Victoria. If you had to walk from Victoria to Midland to make a connection that is quite a long unpleasant walk.

 

[Halifaxlad]

My earlier point that prompted several of the above posts was in relation to the walking distance between the University of Sheffield and Victoria and Midland stations/sites not between Victoria and Midland.

 

[D365]

My earlier point that prompted several of the above posts was in relation to the walking distance between the University of Sheffield and Victoria and Midland stations/sites not between Victoria and Midland.

Apologies, looking at your post it appears I did misunderstand it!

 

[MichaelAMW]

Would you like to see the line through Woodhead Tunnel reopened to reinstate the second and faster direct route between Manchester and Sheffield?

Manchester and Sheffield are not in the same place and they are separated by a load of hills, so it will obviously take some time time to travel between them. The EMR and TP services each take under an hour. Why is this not a perfectly good service for a journey like that?

 

[Journeyman]

Manchester and Sheffield are not in the same place and they are separated by a load of hills, so it will obviously take some time time to travel between them. The EMR and TP services each take under an hour. Why is this not a perfectly good service for a journey like that?

Woodhead is always a solution looking for a problem. It's such a perennial and predictable thing - it makes no more sense now than it ever did, apart from correcting a wrong in a few enthusiasts' heads.

The current rail services are more than adequate, and Woodhead would deliver nothing new or useful.

 

[D365]

The current rail services are more than adequate, and Woodhead would deliver nothing new or useful.

I wouldn't say "adequate". Acceptable, at best, now that six car TPE services are more frequent.

The fundamental problem is that improving on Manchester<>Sheffield travel would rely on drilling under the Peak District. Nothing's ever going to get away from that.

 

[Hey 3]

Would you like to see the line through Woodhead Tunnel reopened to reinstate the second and faster direct route between Manchester and Sheffield?

Why was the line closed in the first place and why isn't it being considered for reopening instead of the Hope Valley upgrade? The line and its structures are still very much intact and the last few miles between Stocksbridge and Sheffield still a live railway.

I personally wouldn't because Network Rail did a study called the Northern Way and conclude that a 40 minute journey time isn't achieveable via Woodhead and is acheviable via Hope Valley and upgrading that line and wiring it. Furthermore, Gareth Dennis said on Twitter that Woodhead shouldn't reopen and it is a windier route due to the lack of tunnels, the only one being Woodhead, with Hope Valley having 2 via Belle Vue and Guide Bridge and 3 via Stockport, Disley Tunnel(Stockport route only), Cowburn Tunnel and Totley Tunnel.

 

[Trackman]

They've said they are still maintaining the old tunnels for access and future use, and I remember a statement during the consultation that they would be able to move the connection back if the new tunnel was needed for future transport use.

Somebody posted on FB the other week about this who worked on them, they are now filled in with that foam concrete stuff.
The final nail in the coffin is about to be delivered as they are burying HV cables at the Dunford Bridge end too.
I don't know what the fascination about re-opening Woodhead is, really.

 

[tbtc]

Somebody posted on FB the other week about this who worked on them, they are now filled in with that foam concrete stuff.
The final nail in the coffin is about to be delivered as they are burying HV cables at the Dunford Bridge end too.
I don't know what the fascination about re-opening Woodhead is, really.

I don't think it matters how many nails you put in the coffin, there will always be some True Believers who want to rebuild each and every old line - Woodhead will always be an easy solution for such people, they just need to work out what problems its actually meant to "solve"!

I suppose, on some levels, re-opening Woodhead would be a good idea, were it not for three small problems:

1. There's no space at the Manchester end (as I've said earlier, you'd be stuck behind the EMUs that take around half an hour to cover a dozen or so miles as far as Dinting)
2. There's no space in the middle (given the fact that the tunnels aren't going to re-open)
3. There's no space at the Sheffield end (given that you'd need to build a new chord that gets from the height of Wicker viaduct over the river then over the canal then a tight curve under the six lane A57 to reach Midland, where there's no spare paths at the northern end), unless you wanted to built a stand alone station at the old Victoria site which is a long way from everything

I suppose that if you could ignore the realities then it'd be a good idea!

 

[fishwomp]

I suppose, on some levels, re-opening Woodhead would be a good idea, were it not for three small problems:

1. There's no space at the Manchester end (as I've said earlier, you'd be stuck behind the EMUs that take around half an hour to cover a dozen or so miles as far as Dinting)
2. There's no space in the middle (given the fact that the tunnels aren't going to re-open)
3. There's no space at the Sheffield end (given that you'd need to build a new chord that gets from the height of Wicker viaduct over the river then over the canal then a tight curve under the six lane A57 to reach Midland, where there's no spare paths at the northern end), unless you wanted to built a stand alone station at the old Victoria site which is a long way from everything

I suppose that if you could ignore the realities then it'd be a good idea!

(1) is far from a problem: Hyde - Ashburys has the space to restore 4 track. TBH that needs to be done for Guide Bridge - Ashburys anyway for TPE.. there's also space at Mottram yard to fit a passing loop.

(2) problem

(3) Sheffield Midland needs fixing anyway.. blast the cutting? OTOH, HS2 shows what you need to do is build new stations 15 minutes walk from the other station, no problem! Victoria would have no capacity trouble!

 

[The Planner]

I do agree that Woodhead itself seems to be seen as the only bit of the problem, once you start getting into the nitty gritty of it, it isn't Woodhead but Manchester to Sheffield via Woodhead. That is entirely a different kettle of fish.

 

[MarkyT]

At first sight, it seems logical to suppose rerouting of the high voltage grid cables to a newly constructed buried route of some kind might be cheaper than building a similar length of new railway tunnel, as cables can probably negotiate more challenging vertical and horizontal geometry than railways. As others have said though, even if that were true it's just the start in terms of a practical route reinstatement. And in the end, Woodhead wasn't significantly shorter than the Hope Valley, nor any faster and served the wrong passenger station in Sheffield. It held its own as a freight route when the traffic existed at least partly because it kept that slow heavy procession out of Sheffield and away from the transpennine route via Huddersfield; a useful segregation. Once that traffic had dwindled, Woodhead lost its primary raison d'être, and its maintenance and renewal costs could no longer be justified. It isn't particulalry useful for incorporation as part of NPR. It could just plausibly rediscover a new freight purpose if some substantial new traffic could be uncovered, but I doubt that would be a Hull to Holyhead land bridge (for example) any time soon!

 

[Greybeard33]

It could just plausibly rediscover a new freight purpose if some substantial new traffic could be uncovered, but I doubt that would be a Hull to Holyhead land bridge (for example) any time soon!

More plausible for a freight reopening would be Great Rocks to Matlock, in order to get most of the heavy stone trains from Hindlow and Peak Forest out of the Hope Valley. A single track with passing loops would suffice.