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Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates
- Thread starter Jozhua
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fairly close to the 3750hp for a 5 car 222.
craigybagel
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Thanks all, that answers that pretty comprehensively. It'll be interesting to see how much better they perform on diesel than the older Hitachi units.
Who or what decided that 5 cars meet the profile of the route and services to be operated? Has there been any detailed assessment of numbers and or future growth? These units would likely be in service for 30 years plus and surely 5 car units might not be the best tool for the job in the longer term.
They are to operate in pairs.
Would it not make sense to order longer trains so at least a full unit can be navigated?
It would. Not really sure why they chose 2x5 as they said the services would be doubled up.
5 cars represent the greatest operational convenience. A 2x5 set that just came into St Pancras can divide and operate both slow services North, rather than a mixed fleet that constrains the timetable (both as printed and in times of disruption).
It isn't financially possible to create a 125mph unit with gangways inside those aerodynamic cab fronts.
It isn't financially possible to create a 125mph unit with gangways inside those aerodynamic cab fronts.
Halish Railway
Established Member
It could be for the same reason why WMR opted for three car 730s, that being the lack of depot space for a long train. At the moment the longest train to be maintained in the East Midlands are the 7 car 222s, of course the HSTs are maintained at Neville Hill.
I think the same reasoning is true for Greater Anglia as well with their 720s.
The 810s are apparently going to have the equivalent capacity of a 7 car 222. So for most services it will be a increase in capacity and on double sets it will be the equivalent of adding 4 or 5 coaches. Also extra capacity will be made from removing the stops south of Kettering on the intercity services and having around half of the services running as double sets.
Some services also split on route like to Lincoln which runs as a double set between Nottingham and London and oposit in the evening. I think one of the Corby or Melton services split to in the evening to go back south later on.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Operational experience on GWR is showing that the short sets in pairs is rather a headache. Im pretty sure with hindsight GWR would have ordered more longer sets and fewer 5 car sets. Pretty surprised EMT or whatever its called now has gone down the 5 car route, but if its good enough for GWR I guess its good enough for the fairly short trips on the MML.
They were ordered by the DfT not GWR, the DfT proposed a timetable with much more splitting so ordered a lot more 5 car sets compared to LNER which doesn't have many splits so have more 9 car sets. This splitting timetable never happened, I believe GWR said it wouldn't work but the DfT had already ordered the trains.
Where's the headache, out of interest? The double staffing for the units (which would be applicable to the MML sets), or the attaching/detaching (which will probably be less applicable as the sets that need to be 10 cars in the morning will need to be 10 cars in the evening)
43096
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The difference is that 5-car sets have been in use on the route under MML, EMT and EMR for many, many years now. They are used to them and running them as pairs during the peak.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
First has chosen to go down the splitting route with Avanti's bi-mode AT300s, as they do now with 221s.
It's not quite the same with TPE as the routes mostly can not take 10-car double sets.
Going forward, DfT will no doubt specify anything new.
Splitting 400m HS2 sets into 2x200m sets is the next challenge.
It's not quite the same with TPE as the routes mostly can not take 10-car double sets.
Going forward, DfT will no doubt specify anything new.
Splitting 400m HS2 sets into 2x200m sets is the next challenge.
Ah, But Marsham Street knows best... After all, they never, never, ever, meddle...
northernbelle
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I thought that...Great Minster House where the DfT can be found is on Horseferry Road...The Home Office?
Nottingham59
Established Member
Well actually it's on the corner of Horseferry Road and Marsham Street. Though the main entrance is on Horseferry Road.
GMH is L shaped and the government flogged the Marsham Street wing a decade ago so now only Horseferry Rd.
The Home Office?
Well, they’re as bad as each other for meddling. Though as much as they’d probably like to, the DfT hasn’t lost its own records... yet!
irish_rail
On Moderation
Without wanting to hijack the thread, the headaches are many. Indeed GWR have more or less given up on the splits at Plymouth for the time being as they require so many staff to perform when all the associated ECS moves are considered.
Other problems include needing to staff both sets of a 10 car trains, and invariably there are often shortages leading to catering only in one half of the train, or worse one half the train having to be locked out of use due to no staff.
The actual couplings themselves haven't always been reliable and for a long time there were delays being built up due to trouble splitting or joining them. It only takes one traincrew member to be out of place for no driver to be available to do the split or join.
Other problems revolve around short platforms where passengers get caught in the wrong portion of the train and are thus unable to get off, especially a problem now everyone has the old ipod on and dont listen to announcements.
Other issues include the slowing down of journeys, indeed due to the 10 minutes or so allowed at Plymouth for the split/joins , the journey times from east Cornwall to London are not any better than in HST days , and in some cases are slower.
The wasted space in the middle of the train where the two redundant cabs are is wasted and on busy trains seems rather pointless.
Other issues include depots being overwhelmed. Indeed Laira depot doesn't know what hit it with the sheer amount of moves that now happen to and fro both at night and during the day. GWR have had to recruit alot of extra staff, but sometimes there isn't physically space to get all the units into the maintenance sheds, causing much panic to the depot manager on duty!
On the plus side, the 2 sets means there are additional middle cabs for staff to travel in.
So that's my experience of driving predominantly 5 car 802s in pairs for the past couple of years. Dont get me wrong, over all I think they are OK trains, but that is when they are 9 car or running as a 5 car throughout.
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Halish Railway
Established Member
Add the loss of seats to you’re list of complaints - A 9 car GWR IET has 21 more seats in total than a 2x5 set.
There’s also the issue of the PIS on the trains and at stations incorrectly telling passengers which portion of the train will terminate where. I’ve heard an announcement at Paddington saying that the front five coaches of a Penzance train will terminate at Plymouth.
There’s also the issue of the PIS on the trains and at stations incorrectly telling passengers which portion of the train will terminate where. I’ve heard an announcement at Paddington saying that the front five coaches of a Penzance train will terminate at Plymouth.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Indeed. The whole concept is too complicated and whilst it works fantastically on paper, experience at GWR should be telling the Dft that it isnt quite so rosey in reality.
Railperf
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50% less traction motors though - only two coaches with powered bogies now. They will have to be more powerful than at present as 8x303hp =2424rhp!!
Jozhua
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The thing is there are other TOC's who manage it well and so I suspect that the DfT looked at SWT (as was) saw that they could do it and so thought that GWR could do it.
I don't know why there's a difference, maybe GWR would have managed it better if they had learnt from SWR what is needed.
There's at least 1 late peak which splits and then joins to a return journey service at Guildford. I've seen them do that split in about 60 seconds longer than a standard platform stop when the splitting service was running late.
As such I can understand why the DfT thought that it would be possible elsewhere.
The fact that SWT/SWR have done it forever and know what's needed to get out to work (including possible the maintenance side of things) probably helps, but there's likely to be a long list of other factors which is why there's a difference probably many beyond the control of GWR.
A thorough post! The points about increased staffing and (for Beeston & Long Eaton) relevant to EMR, but the rest I do not think will be
Unless EMR get very ambitious and start splitting trains at Leicester (would seem unlikely) then the splitting & joining will be limited to St Pancras and Etches Park (plus possibly Nottingham with the Newark service?), and even then there is scope for the St Pancras splitting & joining to be much reduced on what it is. Journey times won't be extended to facilitate Joins/Splits, and the possible locations where they will be doing it the staff are used to it and the track is straight
The depot issue also shouldn't be an issue - if as per the assumption above the splitting and joining on the mainline is as little as it is, then so long as Etches Park can form and send them out as 10 cars in the morning, there's no reason to see why they'd struggle to cope.
AFAIK, the units haven't been ordered around a splitting/joining concept as was the case with GWR, but around a constraining platform length at St Pancras, and the need for flexibility. A uniform fleet of 5 cars means that you can throw 312 seats or 624 seats at a service (noting that the previous max capacity on MML was a 2x 5 car 222 at 490, just pipping an HSTs 468), and you'll be able to put double sets on about half the services. There are no real suitable alternative formations either - to match the capacity of a double 222 would need 8 cars but then you'd only be able to get 21 trains rather than 33 for the money which would be stretching things in terms of diagrams, and wouldn't give you any additional capacity!
Good question does it really need one for a 2 hour journey? also will they have the smaller kitchen as used on the Hull Trains/TPE sets?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Voyager and Meridian buffets are tiny, basically just taking up the space where an accessible bog could be, or barely 8 seats.