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We need to talk about Castlefield again.

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jfollows

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I struggled to find the information referred to, so perhaps it's helpful that I post what I found:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...rove-rail-performance-in-the-north-of-england
and

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The third one is interesting - I guess those Piccadilly-North Wales services would run via Crewe?
"The TfW North Wales and Chester service also loses its direct airport link, with the service instead diverted to run to Manchester Piccadilly via Knutsford. This offers a new semi-fast service on the Mid-Cheshire line in addition to the existing hourly service."
 
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Bletchleyite

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"The TfW North Wales and Chester service also loses its direct airport link, with the service instead diverted to run to Manchester Piccadilly via Knutsford. This offers a new semi-fast service on the Mid-Cheshire line in addition to the existing hourly service."

I like that, though it might slow it down a bit?
 

jfollows

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Option A has the fewest change from December 2019 of the three options.
• Most existing origins and destinations are retained, particularly for Newcastle to Piccadilly and Sheffield to Airport journeys.
• Some standardisation is possible in this option, for example Blackpool trains to Hazel Grove, with 4 trains per hour being provided all day from Bolton to the south of Manchester. Cumbria to Manchester Airport trains (currently routed via Wigan) instead run via Bolton.
• The current pattern of TPE Scottish, North route and South route services remain.
• Services through Victoria have been linked to reduce the number of terminating trains at this busy station, with more trains running through (e.g. Wigan – Leeds via Bradford).
• The Transport for Wales service from North Wales and Chester train is re-routed from Manchester Piccadilly and the airport to operate to Stalybridge via Victoria.
• South Manchester stays largely consistent with the December 2019 plan, but Buxton services are reduced to an hourly service outside the peak periods. The Southport service to Alderley Edge is split into a Southport to Victoria service and Piccadilly to Alderley Edge service.

Option B is a variant that maintains Airport connectivity for Liverpool and North Wales. The Cleethorpes/Nottingham service via Sheffield to Liverpool is increased to a standard 2 trains per hour. This means there is no longer a through service from Sheffield to Manchester Airport; a movement which is very operationally challenging at Manchester Piccadilly. Passengers from Warrington Central would also need to change at Piccadilly to access the Airport.
• Stopping trains on the line from Warrington Central are split at Warrington rather than running through from Liverpool, and run at only one per hour off-peak, calling at all stations. This offers an improved pattern for most stations rather than the present pattern of alternate hours at some smaller stations. The two Liverpool-Sheffield services would call at the larger intermediate stations such as Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston.
• There is some standardisation of paths at Manchester Victoria, with 2 trains per hour from Victoria to Leeds via Bradford. Southport trains run to Stalybridge/Victoria all day.
• There is some standardisation of services south of Manchester. One TPE Ordsall Chord train (i.e. that travels to Manchester Airport) is terminated at Victoria, all day.
• In the peak periods, Wigan has a fast hourly service to the south side of Manchester.
• On the Bolton line, the Scotland to Manchester Airport service calls every hour at Bolton and Chorley.
• To the south of Manchester, Buxton would retain two services per hour, but the Crewe line local station services would both be diverted to run via Styal/Manchester Airport.

Option C makes the most interventions and moves closest to 30-minute frequencies on most of the corridors into Manchester, including services on the Blackburn, Calder Valley, Chorley, Wigan, Buxton, Chester via Warrington Bank Quay, Airport (stopping) and Crewe lines.
As for Option B, the Cleethorpes/Nottingham service via Sheffield to Liverpool becomes 2 services per hour, meaning there is no direct service from Sheffield to Manchester Airport – a move that is very operationally challenging at Manchester Piccadilly.
• Stopping trains on the line from Warrington Central are split at Warrington rather than running through from Liverpool, and run at only one per hour off-peak, calling at all stations. This offers an improved pattern for most stations rather than the present pattern of alternatehoursatsomesmallerstations. ThetwoLiverpool-Sheffield services would call at the larger intermediate stations such as Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston.
• In this option, there would be no direct service from either Sheffield or Liverpool to Manchester Airport.
• In peak periods, one train per hour would run via the Ordsall Chord to Manchester Airport. The train from Newcastle would terminate at Manchester Victoria. Off-peak, the train will run to Manchester Airport.
• The TfW North Wales and Chester service also loses its direct airport link, with the service instead diverted to run to Manchester Piccadilly via Knutsford. This offers a new semi-fast service on the Mid-Cheshire line in addition to the existing hourly service.
• There would be regular calls in the Scotland and Cumbria trains at Bolton and Chorley, with these services running at 30 minute intervals.
• Chester would have two trains per hour to Manchester Victoria at 30 minute intervals, continuing on to Leeds.
• In the peak periods Wigan maintains a fast hourly service to the south of Manchester.
• To the south of Manchester, Buxton retains two trains per hour.
• The Crewe line local station services run at 30 minute intervals and call at all stations, and run via Manchester Airport.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I'd probably say I favour option C, as it is heading us closer to a proper Takt rather than the classic Northern "hourly from everywhere to everywhere".

However, a few things I would change:
  • Remove the peak-only service entirely, with a view to operating longer trains in the peak instead. Demand is likely to reduce due to COVID and home-working anyway.
  • Reduce TPE to a 4tph service - Liverpool-Newcastle, Liverpool-Scarborough, Picc-Hull and Picc-Redcar would be my preferences. No TPE service over the Ordsall Chord at all.
  • Liverpool-Oxford Road (I guess this is the Patricroft/Eccles stopper?) moved to Victoria and extended to Stalybridge, more reflecting what is there now and making space for...
  • In its place, the Southport service reduced to 1tph but operated using 5-car Class 195 sets for extra capacity and a visible upgrade (would they fit the bay?). I genuinely think this would be more popular with Sandgrounders who really do seem to have set their lives up around the Castlefield service they have had since the Windsor Link opened than 2tph to/via Vic, despite the railway's view to removing it. New Lane, Bescar Lane and Hoscar to become request stops on all services so it's a clear hourly clockface pattern at all stations west of Wigan.
  • Consolidate the Liverpool-Warrington-wherever expresses on one TOC, be that EMR, Northern or TPE.
  • Piccadilly-Huddersfield stopper retained but moved to Northern.
  • Not sure about Ordsall. Ideally I'd mothball it but that would be politically impossible. Could perhaps a 2tph EMU service from Victoria calling at all stations to the Airport using 331s or 323s be fitted in?
 

LOL The Irony

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So the TfW becomes the Mid-Cheshire. The only thing I disagree with is giving the Manchester - Clethorpes to Northern and extending it through the corridor when it's better suited to its current TPE or EMR.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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FWIW I particularly like, with Option C, how the Airport tail wagging the dog of the entire North West regional rail network has been largely removed.

Yes i agree. Liverpool to Cleethorpes allows both Cleethorpes and Liverpool to lose the train to Airport (arguably the least used part of the former) and provides another service to Liverpool from Sheffield.
 

Ianno87

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Yes i agree. Liverpool to Cleethorpes allows both Cleethorpes and Liverpool to lose the train to Airport (arguably the least used part of the former) and provides another service to Liverpool from Sheffield.

And both still retain a half-hourly same/cross platform connection at Piccadilly 13/14 anyway.
 

Bletchleyite

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True. Its not well used (the airport spur)

It's not as low-used as people often think, but running through services from everywhere onto it is not necessarily of benefit, indeed it's of particular disbenefit to the intermediate stations which were better off with a half hourly local service from the main trainshed at Picc than the bitty service they now have.

A not-terrible use for Ordsall (if we can't just mothball it) might be a clean half hourly EMU service from Victoria calling at all stations to the Airport, which I guess the clean pattern of Option C may fit in more easily instead of 2 of the TPEs. Such a service would be very punctual (and if it ended up way off, cancelling a run to sort it out wouldn't be too consequential) and so wouldn't stuff up Castlefield in the same way.
 

Ianno87

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A not-terrible use for Ordsall (if we can't just mothball it) might be a clean half hourly EMU service from Victoria calling at all stations to the Airport, which I guess the clean pattern of Option C may fit in more easily instead of 2 of the TPEs. Such a service would be very punctual (and if it ended up way off, cancelling a run to sort it out wouldn't be too consequential) and so wouldn't stuff up Castlefield in the same way.

But then you're chewing up Victoria with terminating services.
 

Ianno87

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OK, a DMU from Stalyvegas then, with a view to switching to an EMU once that bit gets wires. Or how's about 769s?

Either way, a local service, not TPE.

But Stalyvegas is already accommodating a local service and possibly a TfW service in a single bay platform.

I think the options proposed are best balancing all the current infrastructure constraints, not just shoving the problem somewhere else down the line.
 

Purple Orange

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I like the idea of splitting Alderley Edge-Stalybridge in option A & C and terminating in Piccadilly & Victoria respectively.

When would this come in to effect?
 

Fokx

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OK, a DMU from Stalyvegas then, with a view to switching to an EMU once that bit gets wires. Or how's about 769s?

Either way, a local service, not TPE.

Then you might as well just keep the Airport to Newcastle 802’s and terminate the Redcar at Victoria instead

Passengers do not want to be constantly changing trains, particularly families with several items of luggage

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I've just realised option c would negate the need for 769s.
Win win
 

Bletchleyite

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Why on earth does option A have a peak Scotland-Airport service by Northern?

I'd not noticed that that was wrongly coloured, but I think the suggestion was that the peak-time Scottish services would run via Parkside instead of Bolton, presumably to make room for one of the other peak only services. Possibly so there's a path for peak time Southport-Oxford Road?

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is it possible the Cleethorpes to Liverpool service being Northern an error (instead of TPE)

Less likely as transferring that to Northern has been proposed.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I'd not noticed that that was wrongly coloured, but I think the suggestion was that the peak-time Scottish services would run via Parkside instead of Bolton, presumably to make room for one of the other peak only services.

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Less likely as transferring that to Northern has been proposed.

why would you transfer it to Northern?
 

Purple Orange

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The incorrect colours does give rise to wondering what else might be incorrect. I’d have thought very little in reality.

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  • Because it's much more of a local service than North TPE is.
Like services to the airport, TPE needs to stop being all things to all people. It will continue to change until the HS2/NPR question is resolved, but I would complete it’s transition to a pure long-distance intercity operation which is what it will be post HS2/NPR, where we will see it merge with XC passenger demand (If Birmingham is amalgamated in to NPR via Manchester)
 
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cle

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I like option C too. It leans towards the Takt (2tph Chester - Leeds!) and lessens the airport thing.

I'm curious if this spells the end of the second full Mid Cheshire service that was planned (shuttles to Stockport) - or if there might ultimately be 3tph via Knutsford. And what that means for the journey time. It does give North Wales the Stockport connection though, and the Met at Alty if might be useful.

Option C - with the all Warrington BQ-Manc service to Vic move and the sever on the CLC to hourly and Warrington Central-Ox Road only - does tee up the Metrolink move for the longer term. Warrington folk will get used to using Victoria.
 

Bletchleyite

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Option C - with the all Warrington BQ-Manc service to Vic move and the sever on the CLC to hourly and Warrington Central-Ox Road only - does tee up the Metrolink move for the longer term. Warrington folk will get used to using Victoria.

Warrington folk would use the Cleethorpes and the Nottingham to get to Oxford Road/Picc if they wanted. The local service is for local stations (bit League of Gentlemen there).

Interestingly for the CLC it's back to something much more like the 1998 timetable where you had the 2 expresses, a semifast to Ringway and the 2 stoppers, hourly (I think) on each side of Warrington, though with Chassen Road/Trafford Park/Humphrey Park only 2-hourly, to which this proposal is an improvement. Perhaps Class 195 operated for the acceleration compared with a Pacer?
 
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