New national restrictions in Scotland

[Wynd]

You seem to think that everyone on here has some anti SNP agenda, which simply isn't the case. Until this year I had a high opinion of them and thought it a pity there isn't an English equivalent. However, this year I have been thoroughly uninmpressed with how both the UK government and the devolved administrations have behaved.

Do I? My key argument has been that many posts are devoid of compassion or scientific rigour. Countries have eliminated, lockdowns have worked, restrictions do make a difference, but some here reject this.

At the risk of straying in to politics and going off topic, its very interesting that you are taking the contrarian position. It appears more people are impressed with the devolved decisions than unimpressed. Has it been perfect? Absolutely not. But hey, whatever. I care not either way, as I said already, this pandemic should be above politics. Clearly it is not.

Whilst I don't approve of every decision that the SNP have made throughout the pandemic, I think they have shown excellent leadership/communication compared to the other Governments. For example, restrictions haven't been announced at 21:30 via Twitter. However, there have been some mass failures:

• Care homes.
• When Glasgow's cases started to rise in September (with no particular source), tougher restrictions should have been imposed (only in-house gatherings were banned). In comparison, in August, when there was a concentrated spike in Aberdeen related to one pub, all hospitality was closed (and other restrictions I can't remember) for three weeks - which brought cases right down.
• Students should also not have unnecessarily been sent back to halls.

I could probably list a whole host of others.

Oh please don't tell me you are one of the Aberdeen has been singled out self styled victims are you? Aberdeen hasn't been treated any better or worse than anywhere else. I say this as a local.

 

[kez19]

They got in quickly when it was at lower levels, but this is not a sustainable policy and has completely tanked the economy of Melbourne at least.

And the decline coincidenced with the arrival of their summer, which is very likely to be significant. Plus a lot of the continent doesn't really have a winter in the way Europe does.

I agree I think I chose this link in particular in terms of the whole "close the borders" theory, that seems to be thrown around between England/Scotland


As well as in terms of the new cases in Australia thats their summer now.

 

[Journeyman]

They got in quickly when it was at lower levels, but this is not a sustainable policy and has completely tanked the economy of Melbourne at least.

And the decline coincidenced with the arrival of their summer, which is very likely to be significant. Plus a lot of the continent doesn't really have a winter in the way Europe does.

Australia is also a completely different country to the UK. The population is much smaller and it isn't a massive international travel hub like the UK is.

 

[Wynd]

Schools.
Care homes
Economy
Healthcare

Show me a government that has not failed by that measure?

 

[Journeyman]

Show me a government that has not failed by that measure?

Whataboutery is a poor debate tactic.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Oh please don't tell me you are one of the Aberdeen has been singled out self styled victims are you? Aberdeen hasn't been treated any better or worse than anywhere else. I say this as a local.

No, I'm not. I'm not sure why that affects matters anyway.

You are clearly portraying a pro-SNP agenda here and it's not working.

 

[farleigh]

Do I? My key argument has been that many posts are devoid of compassion or scientific rigour. Countries have eliminated, lockdowns have worked, restrictions do make a difference, but some here reject this.

At the risk of straying in to politics and going off topic, its very interesting that you are taking the contrarian position. It appears more people are impressed with the devolved decisions than unimpressed. Has it been perfect? Absolutely not. But hey, whatever. I care not either way, as I said already, this pandemic should be above politics. Clearly it is not.



Oh please don't tell me you are one of the Aberdeen has been singled out nut jobs are you? Aberdeen hasn't been treated any better or worse than anywhere else. I say this as a local.

Your key argument seems to lack compassion. You seem like a nice person but I find your authoritarian right wing views - whilst i am happy to listen to them - somewhat discomforting.

You did not respond to my post about the impact upon people with mental health issues which is fair enough. But please do not throw these people to the wall in the name of defeating the virus.

Surely you can see this.

 

[Wynd]

Your key argument seems to lack compassion. You seem like a nice person but I find your authoritarian right wing views - whilst i am happy to listen to them - somewhat discomforting.

You did not respond to my post about the impact upon people with mental health issues which is fair enough. But please do not throw these people to the wall in the name of defeating the virus.

Surely you can see this.

I addressed this above in detailing that the effects are horrific but on balance, a very very fine balance, this is the lesser of two evils. I suggest you re-check my posts regarding mental health, which I take very seriously. As for Right wing Authoritarian, it sounds like someone is projecting there.

No, I'm not. I'm not sure why that affects matters anyway.

You are clearly portraying a pro-SNP agenda here and it's not working.

Am I? Asking for evidence, or questioning some posts tells you little in fact. Isn't it telling that someone trying to intrude a little balance is seen by you as pro-SNP? By that logic shall we assume you are some sort of militant Unionist?

Going by some post in here, it is plain as day to see there are a number of deeply Anti-SNP views on here, that are pretty extreme to say the least.

As I have said twice already, politics is beyond this. For now there is a pandemic to be resolving. But I appreciate the topic of this thread is perhaps more about the politics and ramifications than the pandemic itself.


Isn't it interesting that I can be both right wing authoritarian and a supposed SNP agenda promoter in the same place at the same time...

Whats the SNP agenda I am promoting? Keeping people alive? Is that not a policy supported by many other parties? By that logic Adam Tomkins is in the running to be a future SNP MSP...

 

[devon_metro]

Again. In Scotland we came within touching distance of total elimination. They did work.

I can show you the evidence, but I can't understand it for you.

I see in one of your previous posts that you referred to the tourists flocking in. So Scots going on holiday had no effect? Last time I checked, tourism to Glasgow is not particularly high and that's where we saw cases rising most. As somebody who witnessed quite a few tourists in Edinburgh over summer where a lot of hospitality was (finally) largely open, it wasn't until the students arrived that cases rose with any signifance and the same is true across much of the UK.

Elimination of viruses is largely futile without a vaccinne, unless you ban all travel forever. Eventually it's going to come back until people have imminity. So whilst the efforts of the more harsh Scottish restrictions may have lowered cases more than the rest of the UK, did the government seriously expect it to be maintained without a virus? Scotland is not an island so you can't just bring up the drawbridge like New Zealand. Whether you like it or not, Scotland shares close ties with the rest of the UK. The four nations of the UK should have co-ordinated the pandemic response throughout. Same messaging, same tiers/levels. Unfortunately politics has come into why this didn't happen (and all sides are culpible). This just breeds confusion which does not help the pandemic response - does anybody seriously know what FACTS stands for? Oh, and to criticise the government does not make people incompassionate. Coronavirus is not the only thing happening, so it is right that people challenge rules if they are not proportionate to the risk. Is putting Highlands into Level 4 rational? Probably not. To blindly accept it helps nobody.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Am I? Asking for evidence, or questioning some posts tells you little in fact. Isn't it telling that someone trying to intrude a little balance is seen by you as pro-SNP? By that logic shall we assume you are some sort of militant Unionist?

Going by some post in here, it is plain as day to see there are a number of deeply Anti-SNP views on here, that are pretty extreme to say the least.

As I have said twice already, politics is beyond this. For now there is a pandemic to be resolving. But I appreciate the topic of this thread is perhaps more about the politics and ramifications than the pandemic itself.

What evidence do you want? I gave a (non-exhaustive) list of failures that I think the SNP have made just a few posts ago. Why don't you respond to them, that might make your view a bit more balanced?

Politics is not beyond this. Nicola Sturgeon makes subtle digs at Westminster/the English regularly at her daily briefings.

 

[DB]

I addressed this above in detailing that the effects are horrific but on balance, a very very fine balance, this is the lesser of two evils. I suggest you re-check my posts regarding mental health, which I take very seriously.


Am I? Asking for evidence, or questioning some posts tells you little in fact. Isn't it telling that someone trying to intrude a little balance is seen by you as pro-SNP? By that logic shall we assume you are some sort of militant Unionist?

Going by some post in here, it is plain as day to see there are a number of deeply Anti-SNP views on here, that are pretty extreme to say the least.

As I have said twice already, politics is beyond this. For now there is a pandemic to be resolving. But I appreciate the topic of this thread is perhaps more about the politics and ramifications than the pandemic itself.

The only one pushing politics on here is you. But yes, some of us think that all the devolved administrations are using thus politically - hence the rules having to be different in each country when a joint approach would actually make more sense given the open borders.

 

[farleigh]

@Skite Train please try to think of others in difficult situations.

 

[Journeyman]

What evidence do you want? I gave a (non-exhaustive) list of failures that I think the SNP have made just a few posts ago. Why don't you respond to them, that might make your view a bit more balanced?

Politics is not beyond this. Nicola Sturgeon makes subtle digs at Westminster/the English regularly at her daily briefings.

The only reason those briefings are still going on is because they're free party political broadcasts. There's no way they remain necessary.

 

[DB]

I see in one of your previous posts that you referred to the tourists flocking in. So Scots going on holiday had no effect? Last time I checked, tourism to Glasgow is not particularly high and that's where we saw cases rising most. As somebody who witnessed quite a few tourists in Edinburgh over summer where a lot of hospitality was (finally) largely open, it wasn't until the students arrived that cases rose with any signifance and the same is true across much of the UK.

Elimination of viruses is largely futile without a vaccinne, unless you ban all travel forever. Eventually it's going to come back until people have imminity. So whilst the efforts of the more harsh Scottish restrictions may have lowered cases more than the rest of the UK, did the government seriously expect it to be maintained without a virus? Scotland is not an island so you can't just bring up the drawbridge like New Zealand. Whether you like it or not, Scotland shares close ties with the rest of the UK. The four nations of the UK should have co-ordinated the pandemic response throughout. Same messaging, same tiers/levels. Unfortunately politics has come into why this didn't happen (and all sides are culpible). This just breeds confusion which does not help the pandemic response - does anybody seriously know what FACTS stands for? Oh, and to criticise the government does not make people incompassionate. Coronavirus is not the only thing happening, so it is right that people challenge rules if they are not proportionate to the risk. Is putting Highlands into Level 4 rational? Probably not. To blindly accept it helps nobody.

It is questionable whether it was the students either - the time of year when cases started to rise was when cases if respiratory viruses always start to rise. I don't think it's helpful to go blaming this or that group.

 

[Wynd]

The only one pushing politics on here is you. But yes, some of us think that all the devolved administrations are using thus politically - hence the rules having to be different in each country when a joint approach would actually make more sense given the open borders.

I couldn't help but notice Tier 4 was only introduced by Downing Street today, something that has existed in Scotland for some time. A joint approach would have been far better, but please don't propose one side is worse than the other. Downing St is as guilty as Bute House not to have coordinated.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The only reason those briefings are still going on is because they're free party political broadcasts. There's no way they remain necessary.

Tell me about it. I bet Sturgeon's best friends are enjoying the free airtime too - Jason Leitch especially. He's a dentist for goodness sake.

 

[Wynd]

The only reason those briefings are still going on is because they're free party political broadcasts. There's no way they remain necessary.

Informing the public on health messaging is unnecessary?

The BBC are hardly big fans of the SNP, nor are they allowed to grant any one party more airtime than another as we know in the impartiality rules.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I couldn't help but notice Tier 4 was only introduced by Downing Street today, something that has existed in Scotland for some time. A joint approach would have been far better, but please don't propose one side is worse than the other. Downing St is as guilty as Bute House not to have coordinated.

Tier 4 has not existed in Scotland - level 4 has.

Informing the public on health messaging is unnecessary?

Every day? Yes. Repetitive messaging becomes tiresome and people will start ignoring it. Behavioural scientists should know this.

 

[Journeyman]

I couldn't help but notice Tier 4 was only introduced by Downing Street today, something that has existed in Scotland for some time. A joint approach would have been far better, but please don't propose one side is worse than the other. Downing St is as guilty as Bute House not to have coordinated.

Actually, Westminster placed England in a national lockdown a good couple of weeks before Tier 4 was first used in Scotland. They didn't call it Tier 4, but that's effectively what it was. They've now introduced the term in England because different restrictions apply in different places.

 

[takno]

Tell me about it. I bet Sturgeon's best friends are enjoying the free airtime too - Jason Leitch especially. He's a dentist for goodness sake.

He qualified as a dentist. Might even have been one for 5 years. As far as I can tell after that he did an MBA, and he's been doing glorified PR for the Scottish Govt for 13 years since then

 

[Wynd]

Is this where we are now? The BBC are promoting the SNP?

If that's where we are, I'm out. Thats wilder than thinking lockdowns don't suppress a virus.

 

[Journeyman]

Informing the public on health messaging is unnecessary?

The BBC are hardly big fans of the SNP, nor are they allowed to grant any one party more airtime than another as we know in the impartiality rules.

Look at how much of a fuss the SNP made when the BBC proposed dropping the coverage of the daily briefings. Hardly anyone pays them any attention - they just repeat the same thing over and over again. They're only necessary when things actually change. Sturgeon is just desperate to keep promoting herself because of the election next year.

 

[DB]

I couldn't help but notice Tier 4 was only introduced by Downing Street today, something that has existed in Scotland for some time. A joint approach would have been far better, but please don't propose one side is worse than the other. Downing St is as guilty as Bute House not to have coordinated.

Yes, they've all been useless at coordination (or more likely, unwilling to do so) But knowing that doesn't really help, nor does it make anyone anti SNP.

 

[kez19]

Is this where we are now? The BBC are promoting the SNP?

If that's where we are, I'm out. Thats wilder than thinking lockdowns don't suppress a virus.

So we suppressing the virus I thought it was eliminating earlier?

As for BBC Scotland then yes I don’t see Boris giving daily briefings do you?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Thats wilder than thinking lockdowns don't suppress a virus.

I'm not disputing that fact.

But they also suppress the economy, people's mental health and the number of jobs going about. Those all need taken into consideration. If it wasn't for them I would have expected Sturgeon to pursue a lockdown-til-vaccine route.

Could you please give your opinion on whether the SNP have made any failures during the pandemic because at the moment you are portraying a very pro-SNP mantra and the impression I get is that you think they have done absolutely nothing wrong.

 

[Wynd]

Oh no wait, I was too early there.

The SNP have bullied the BBC in to promoting, daily, the SNP on the BBC for party political gain whilst they are in government during a pandemic which the SNP are mishandling going by many post on here.

Wouldn't a failing government want the least amount of publicity possible? Particularly from a broadcaster that is opposed to the very idea of the SNP in their name? British Broadcasting...

This is getting wilder and wilder by the minute. Honestly, this is hilarious now. hahaha

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The SNP have bullied the BBC in to promoting, daily, the SNP on the BBC for party political gain whilst they are in government during a pandemic which the SNP are mishandling going by many post on here.

Could you please provide balanced arguments? You are quite clearly SNP-biased.

What is your opinion on the (mis-)handling of care homes, education, FE students, etc?

I recognise the fact that the BBC are quite obviously anti-SNP because quite regularly they air the daily briefing, then the question from the BBC journalist, cut to one of their political editors and then Douglas Ross. And then it's time for the lunchtime news.

 

[kez19]

Oh no wait, I was too early there.

The SNP have bullied the BBC in to promoting, daily, the SNP on the BBC for party political gain whilst they are in government during a pandemic which the SNP are mishandling going by many post on here.

This is getting wilder and wilder by the minute.

Of course she does but you don’t see BBC backing down from it, I believe it was to go down an editorial route for the briefings, why not just make it twice a week?

If the broadcast is about COVID keep it COVID not going off on one about other topics and keep it to 15 mins?

 

[DB]

Oh no wait, I was too early there.

The SNP have bullied the BBC in to promoting, daily, the SNP on the BBC for party political gain whilst they are in government during a pandemic which the SNP are mishandling going by many post on here.

Wouldn't a failing government want the least amount of publicity possible?

This is getting wilder and wilder by the minute. Honestly, this is hilarious now. hahaha

I would suspect you were from SNP central office, but I doubt their policy is to insult and belittle anyone who disagrees with them...

 

[Butts]

As I understand it although the "ban" in travelling to England has already been enacted the change in Tier Levels is effective from Boxing Day in Scotland.

Living in Falkirk which is in Tier 2 means that you are still permitted to Travel Abroad as I understand it. It is advised against but not legally restricted.

In order to get to an Airport you are permitted to enter a higher level area (IE Edinburgh). So if I were to fly down to Birmingham from Edinburgh with the intention of continuing overseas that would be permissible under current regulations ?

Sorry to interrupt the political debate....

Here we are Mr Cunningham !!!