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New national restrictions in Scotland

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Richard Scott

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I see my appeal to compassion or even human decency are going down a treat.

Devolved administrations and self promotion? Promoting that they want to keep their citizens alive? That kind of self promotion?

Some people were on borrowed time, so I don't feel compelled to follow rules that may extend their lives somewhat. Wow. Is there a word beyond selfish in the dictionary?

Restrictions haven't made any difference? We in Scotland nearly eliminated this thing in summer. Then tourism came flooding in once restrictions were lifted and this thing started running rampant again.

The person agreeing that we need to take this seriously and abide by some basic restictions is being melodramatic? That sounds like accusation masquerading as insecurity.

Contemptible. Shameful responses.
Ok, well if you live on your own you will fully understand where I'm coming from. I've put up with 8 months of this and stuck to rules, hardly selfish giving up 8 months of my life. Because of it my mental well-being is shot. I can't see a way out of this, I can't see my sister and nephews whom I haven't seen in ages, luckily I can still see my mother but that seems to be on a knife edge at the moment. You have the gall to say these are shameful responses, really. I hope you're in a better place than some of us then because if you aren't then you must be mentally a lot tougher than me and I thought I was pretty strong but this has done me in. Thanks for telling me how I should feel, I'll try and be less selfish for you.
 
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DB

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Hang on, do you live or work in Scotland?

Great to hear. You don't see the value in preserving life. Or the value in science.

Thank you for being so candid.

Nope, but we can have views you know.

But please stop lying with your claim that I don't see the value in preserving life. I never said that. It is clear that these measures cause deaths by other means - particularly suicides - and there is no evidence that draconian restrictions actually make any significant difference in the spread. Compare the stats across the world for cases and the strength of restrictions in force at the time. There is no correlation at all, which there certainly would be if the restrictions were working.
 
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To be pedantic. although the restrictions have now been inserted in SI2020/344 which originally came into force on 2nd November, the restriction on travel into and out of Scotland was inserted into that legislation by SI2020/389 which came into force at 6pm on 20 November 2020.


Hi Jonathan - I appreciate the detailed correction, thank you

I was reading the regs on the legislation.gov.uk and It shows the (now amended) Reg as a single document with the amendment date details in the smallest text size they could possibly find and I must of scrolled right past it. I'll need to watch that in future.

The latest SI is an absolute midden to read as it's amending an amendment to an amended SI
 

Richard Scott

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I do think that being very ill with it was a sobering experience that led me to reevaluate things. I don't agree with all the measures we've seen, but I agree with the desire the government has to drive this right down, because I've had a scary demonstration of how serious it is. I think it genuinely did change my opinions.

At the same time, I appreciate how frustrating and difficult the restrictions are, and they've done my mental health no good at all, so there's a need for a fine balance, and getting that right is extremely difficult.

I don't think you can compare this with flu. Everyone does, but I've only ever had proper flu once or twice, and it was extremely trivial in comparison.
It changed your opinions because you had a bad experience, sorry to hear that but most people don't. For most it isn't like that so please stop telling us it is. As with anything like this some will have it rough but unfortunately that's life. We can't keep going on like this because a small percentage have a bad time of it or it kills them, so does flu and many other ailments.
 

farleigh

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It changed your opinions because you had a bad experience, sorry to hear that but most people don't. For most it isn't like that so please stop telling us it is. As with anything like this some will have it rough but unfortunately that's life. We can't keep going on like this because a small percentage have a bad time of it or it kills them, do does flu and many other ailments.
Very good post
 

bramling

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I think the problem is all attention is being focused on the virus and not other problems that we are now facing. Mental health problems (which is causing a increase in suicide), those with other serious health problems having medical treatment delayed, the fact that the UK economy will probably fail catastrophically if restrictions don’t end soon.

if the matter isn’t resolved quickly we could also see the NHS (and other government services) in deep trouble as mass unemployment will result in vastly reduced funding for such services.

This is the problem, some people just aren’t thinking of the wider effects of this.

It was quite reasonable for there to be a massive focus on Covid last March as an emergency measure. But that was never going to be sustainable over time. Perhaps this latest issue is actually a further demonstration of that, *if* the current situation were to be so serious that emergency measures might now be justified, we’re in a much worse position to do that having had 9 months of restrictions.
 

Butts

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Hi Jonathan - I appreciate the detailed correction, thank you

I was reading the regs on the legislation.gov.uk and It shows the (now amended) Reg as a single document with the amendment date details in the smallest text size they could possibly find and I must of scrolled right past it. I'll need to watch that in future.

The latest SI is an absolute midden to read as it's amending an amendment to an amended SI
Ah glad you've popped up.

Could you answer my earlier query about cross border/ going abroad travel please.
 

Journeyman

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It changed your opinions because you had a bad experience, sorry to hear that but most people don't. For most it isn't like that so please stop telling us it is. As with anything like this some will have it rough but unfortunately that's life. We can't keep going on like this because a small percentage have a bad time of it or it kills them, do does flu and many other ailments.

It's changed my opinions because I've realised it isn't trivial. It might be for a lot of people, but you don't know in advance if you'll be one of them. Before I got it, I wasn't taking the whole thing seriously at all, because I was expecting to basically deal with a cold if I contracted it. If you fancy your chances, fine. I just wouldn't hold that opinion now. To some extent it's irrelevant now, as a recent blood test showed I'm awash with antibodies, but as someone normally very fit and healthy, I'd never have guessed it could make me so ill.

I agree the restrictions are causing a lot of problems, and I certainly don't agree with all of them - I've had an extremely difficult time getting an unrelated minor medical problem resolved - but I'm very frustrated with the people who want to travel vast distances for purely selfish reasons right now. There's a lot I want to do right now, but I'm waiting because I want to be responsible.

If you need to do something essential, I won't complain and I certainly won't lecture or snitch on anyone, but please - be careful, and be aware of how serious this can be. That's all I'm saying.
 

bramling

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Ok, well if you live on your own you will fully understand where I'm coming from. I've put up with 8 months of this and stuck to rules, hardly selfish giving up 8 months of my life. Because of it my mental well-being is shot. I can't see a way out of this, I can't see my sister and nephews whom I haven't seen in ages, luckily I can still see my mother but that seems to be on a knife edge at the moment. You have the gall to say these are shameful responses, really. I hope you're in a better place than some of us then because if you aren't then you must be mentally a lot tougher than me and I thought I was pretty strong but this has done me in. Thanks for telling me how I should feel, I'll try and be less selfish for you.

As you say, giving up 8 months of quality life is hardly selfish. It’s never enough for some people.
 

Wynd

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Very selfish post - do you not care about people outside Scotland?

Do you only care about Covid deaths and not those suffering in other ways - anxiety, depression, mental health....

At least you have been honest but please do try to think of others

I think you better check the title of the thread we are in here.

Mental health is a very valid and entirely appropriate point, but prevalence of the virus is exacerbating those issues. Reduce the virus and we reduce the drivers, somewhat not entirely, of anxiety, depression and loneliness.

FWIW, I too am fatigued by this whole thing, but we absolutely need to focus on getting the cases down. Travel restrictions are IMHO a very powerful tool to achieve that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Ok, well if you live on your own you will fully understand where I'm coming from. I've put up with 8 months of this and stuck to rules, hardly selfish giving up 8 months of my life. Because of it my mental well-being is shot. I can't see a way out of this, I can't see my sister and nephews whom I haven't seen in ages, luckily I can still see my mother but that seems to be on a knife edge at the moment. You have the gall to say these are shameful responses, really. I hope you're in a better place than some of us then because if you aren't then you must be mentally a lot tougher than me and I thought I was pretty strong but this has done me in. Thanks for telling me how I should feel, I'll try and be less selfish for you.

Whats selfish is those disregarding rules designed to get us out of this.

Im not telling anyone how to feel. Its a very tough situation, everyone is experiencing it differently.

What we share is that we are living under prescribed rules that are for the greater good. Disregarding them and advancing the virus is indefensible.
 
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Richard Scott

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I think you better check the title of the thread we are in here.

Mental health is a very valid and entirely appropriate point, but prevalence of the virus is exacerbating those issues. Reduce the virus and we reduce the drivers, somewhat not entirely, of anxiety, depression and loneliness.

FWIW, I too am fatigued by this whole thing, but we absolutely need to focus on getting the cases down. Travel restrictions are IMHO a very powerful tool to a chief that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Whats selfish is those disregarding rules designed to get us out of this.

Im not telling anyone how to feel. Its a very tough situation, everyone is experiencing it differently.

What we share is that we are living under prescribed rules that are for the greater good. Disregarding them and advancing the virus is indefensible.
Ok, so how do we reduce this virus then as past 8 months have shown us that all these restrictions just aren't working?
 

Wynd

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Ok, so how do we reduce this virus then as past 8 months have shown us that all these restrictions just aren't working?

Again. In Scotland we came within touching distance of total elimination. They did work.

I can show you the evidence, but I can't understand it for you.
 

DB

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I think you better check the title of the thread we are in here.

Mental health is a very valid and entirely appropriate point, but prevalence of the virus is exacerbating those issues. Reduce the virus and we reduce the drivers, somewhat not entirely, of anxiety, depression and loneliness.

FWIW, I too am fatigued by this whole thing, but we absolutely need to focus on getting the cases down. Travel restrictions are IMHO a very powerful tool to a chief that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Whats selfish is those disregarding rules designed to get us out of this.

Im not telling anyone how to feel. Its a very tough situation, everyone is experiencing it differently.

What we share is that we are living under prescribed rules that are for the greater good. Disregarding them and advancing the virus is indefensible.

We have repeatedly been told that this measure or that measure will get us out of this. They never do. There is no evidence that these restrictions make more than at most a minimal difference to the speed of spread, and with a more infectious strain they are likely to make even less difference.
 

Journeyman

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Ok, so how do we reduce this virus then as past 8 months have shown us that all these restrictions just aren't working?

I think you could only say that if we lived in a parallel universe where we could see for sure what would happen if we let the disease let rip. I've a feeling it wouldn't be pretty at all.

The US has gone easy on restrictions and the effect has been terrible. Even the Swedes, previously held up as an example of a country that did alright without a lockdown, have admitted they should have been stricter.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Again. In Scotland we came within touching distance or total elimination. They did work.
There were no travel restrictions in the first lockdown. The 5 mile "rule" was guidance.

(I mean, yes it was an offence to leave your home without reasonable excuse, but in law there were no travel restrictions as such)

Total elimination would only have worked if England and Wales had committed to it too.
 

Journeyman

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Again. In Scotland we came within touching distance or total elimination. They did work.

I can show you the evidence, but I can't understand it for you.

I'm afraid that's nonsense. The same pattern could be observed internationally.

I generally agree with you on restrictions, but I'd urge you to dial down the tone a bit. You're looking pretty aggressive.
 

DB

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Again. In Scotland we came within touching distance or total elimination. They did work.

I can show you the evidence, but I can't understand it for you.
It was summer - respiratory viruses always go right down then. Have you never noticed that hardly anyone gets a cold at that time of year?
 

farleigh

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I think you better check the title of the thread we are in here.

Mental health is a very valid and entirely appropriate point, but prevalence of the virus is exacerbating those issues. Reduce the virus and we reduce the drivers, somewhat not entirely, of anxiety, depression and loneliness.

FWIW, I too am fatigued by this whole thing, but we absolutely need to focus on getting the cases down. Travel restrictions are IMHO a very powerful tool to a chief that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Whats selfish is those disregarding rules designed to get us out of this.

Im not telling anyone how to feel. Its a very tough situation, everyone is experiencing it differently.

What we share is that we are living under prescribed rules that are for the greater good. Disregarding them and advancing the virus is indefensible.
Oh no - I sympathise with your wish to get cases down of course. You seem like a rational person in some respects.

i just find your disregard for people with severe anxiety and depression caused by the lockdown rather selfish and somewhat authoritarian and right wing. Expressing those views is fine with me but many people feel unsafe hearing views like that. Just read the many threads on here.

I do not agree that it is for the greater good - again I am rather uncomfortable with your authoritarian views but I respect your right to air them.

Free speech is what we are all about, no?
 

Journeyman

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It was summer - respiratory viruses always go right down then. Have you never noticed that hardly anyone gets a cold at that time of year?

It suits certain people in Scotland to pretend that the summer respite was down to our wise and magnificent leadership.
 

kez19

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It suits certain people in Scotland to pretend that the summer respite was down to our wise and magnificent leadership.


Yet you could argue the toss that no one seen this coming or if they did chose to jump ship? (that would be my take on it)
 

DB

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Total elimination would only have worked if England and Wales had committed to it too.

And even if it proved possible - which I doubt - it would have required closing all borders indefinitely with a 2 week quarantine period - not a viable prospect.
 

Wynd

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It appears to be that the motive of the administration is actually what is up for debate here. And of course the ramifications of those decisions.

Lockdown is having all manner of horrific effects. In the interests of transparency, those are horrendous issues, but against the horrendous outcomes of the virus running free, they are difficult but necessary. Horrendous situation, but I on balance agree with them. Just.
 

farleigh

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It appears to be that the motive of the administration is actually what is up for debate here. And of course the ramifications of those decisions.

Lockdown is having all manner of horrific effects. In the interests of transparency, those are horrendous issues, but against the horrendous outcomes of the virus running free, they are difficult but necessary. Horrendous situation, but I on balance agree with them. Just.
Balanced post.
 

kez19

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And even if it proved possible - which I doubt - it would have required closing all borders indefinitely with a 2 week quarantine period - not a viable prospect.


Lets look at Australia.... whilst its wiki....

Australian borders were closed to all non-residents on 20 March,[3] and returning residents were required to spend two weeks in supervised quarantine hotels from 27 March.[4] Many individual states and territories also closed their borders to varying degrees, with some remaining closed until late 2020.[5] Social distancing rules were imposed on 21 March, and state governments started to close 'non-essential' services.[6][7] "Non-essential services" included social gathering venues such as pubs and clubs but unlike many other countries did not include most business operations such as construction, manufacturing and many retail categories.[8] The number of new cases initially grew sharply, then levelled out at about 350 per day around 22 March, and started falling at the beginning of April to under 20 cases per day by the end of the month.[1]

A second wave of infections emerged in Victoria during May and June, which was attributed to an outbreak at a Melbourne quarantine hotel. The second wave, though largely localised to Melbourne, was much more widespread and deadlier than the first; at its peak, the state had over 7,000 active cases.[9] Victoria underwent a second strict lockdown which eventually lasted almost four months.[10] The wave ended with zero new cases being recorded on 26 October.[11][12][13]

As of 20 December 2020, Australia has reported 28,171 cases, 25,486 recoveries, and 908 deaths, with Victoria's second wave accounting for nearly 75 percent of cases and 90 percent of fatalities.[1] The stated goal of the National Cabinet is "zero community transmission," in contrast to the mitigation strategies implemented by most other nations.[14] Compared to other Western countries, notably the United States and European countries, Australia's handling has been praised for its effectiveness.[15][16][17
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Do list where you think the leadership have failed?
Whilst I don't approve of every decision that the SNP have made throughout the pandemic, I think they have shown excellent leadership/communication compared to the other Governments. For example, restrictions haven't been announced at 21:30 via Twitter. However, there have been some mass failures:
  • Care homes.
  • When Glasgow's cases started to rise in September (with no particular source), tougher restrictions should have been imposed (only in-house gatherings were banned). In comparison, in August, when there was a concentrated spike in Aberdeen related to one pub, all hospitality was closed (and other restrictions I can't remember) for three weeks - which brought cases right down.
  • Students should also not have unnecessarily been sent back to halls.
I could probably list a whole host of others.
 

DB

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It appears to be that the motive of the administration is actually what is up for debate here. And of course the ramifications of those decisions.

Lockdown is having all manner of horrific effects. In the interests of transparency, those are horrendous issues, but against the horrendous outcomes of the virus running free, they are difficult but necessary. Horrendous situation, but I on balance agree with them. Just.

You seem to think that everyone on here has some anti SNP agenda, which simply isn't the case. Until this year I had a high opinion of them and thought it a pity there isn't an English equivalent. However, this year I have been thoroughly uninmpressed with how both the UK government and the devolved administrations have behaved.
 

Journeyman

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Do list where you think the leadership have failed?

It's not so much that they've failed, it's just they haven't done any better than anywhere else. It isn't true that Scotland nearly eliminated it in the summer - it was in retreat everywhere. Scotland has done slightly better than England, but it's more down to the lower population density than anything else.

Nicola Sturgeon communicates far better than Boris Johnson, but there's absolutely no evidence to suggest the Scottish government has handled this significantly better than Westminster and/or anyone else.
 

DB

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Lets look at Australia.... whilst its wiki....

They got in quickly when it was at lower levels, but this is not a sustainable policy and has completely tanked the economy of Melbourne at least.

And the decline coincidenced with the arrival of their summer, which is very likely to be significant. Plus a lot of the continent doesn't really have a winter in the way Europe does.
 
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