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Cuts to investment in rail infrastructure.

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LNW-GW Joint

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GRIP was actually formulated to get control of the West Coast Route Modernisation project which had failed spectacularly under Railtrack.
It also borrowed from complex construction projects in the nuclear and oil industries.
The main aim was to get a signed off specification by all stakeholders before work starts on the ground, and to stop "scope creep".
HS2 is not being managed by Network Rail (except for its interface to the current network).
Crossrail, at one time in joint TfL/NR hands, has in recent years been entirely a TfL project (with DfT oversight, and NR as a subcontractor).
The Treasury also insists on rigorous project management where large sums of public money are involved.
 
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Bald Rick

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Given the Rail Network Enhancements Pipeline document hasn't been refreshed in over 13 months and that only a couple of projects have been mentioned since then tells me NR haven't been instructed to move any projects beyond there current phase so there development and design is probably falling behind so many projects way off being shovel ready so I concur with you that this probably suits all concerned.

Lots of enhancement projects have been instructed to move forwards in the past year.

Almost every project is overspent
That’s not true.



GRIP was actually formulated to get control of the West Coast Route Modernisation
That’s not true either!


If all else fails, ring Bechtel :D

That is one lesson learned...
 

greyman42

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And wasn't the PM saying a few weeks ago that the government is committed to infrastructure projects as they create much needed jobs?
Perhaps the reality regarding the financial state of the country is hitting home.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Lots of enhancement projects have been instructed to move forwards in the past year.
Then why haven't they issued an update? Scottish Transport provide regular updates on the projects they are sponsoring but in England its smoke and mirrors and the only time you get to hear anything is when a Minster has got something to crow about
 

Brush 4

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The usual silence from the DfT. As no-one has posted a list of the cutbacks, it would seem there isn't one yet so, we can only try to second guess. There have been whispers about Aylesbury-MK being removed from E-W so, perhaps that is one. Electrification projects? Resignalling?
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The usual silence from the DfT. As no-one has posted a list of the cutbacks, it would seem there isn't one yet so, we can only try to second guess. There have been whispers about Aylesbury-MK being removed from E-W so, perhaps that is one. Electrification projects? Resignalling?
Resignalling is largely funded from Operate Maintain Renewal budget which NR has day to day control over.

Given the green agenda and the fact NR had was on with developing MML electrification you would have thought that was an ideal project to demonstrate substance rather than intent to electrify the economy.
 

hwl

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If all else fails, ring Bechtel :D
Dad's was saying that one long before I was born!

The problems is that often people don't like the costs they suggest which tend to be far far closer actual outturns.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Resignalling is largely funded from Operate Maintain Renewal budget which NR has day to day control over.

Given the green agenda and the fact NR had was on with developing MML electrification you would have thought that was an ideal project to demonstrate substance rather than intent to electrify the economy.
The problem is that in specifying very high performance bi-modes for the MML you now struggle to achieve any journey time savings with electrification.
 
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Bald Rick

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The problems is that often people don't like the costs they suggest which tend to be far far closer actual outturns.


.. but almost always over the outturns, with a % fee related to the ‘saving’...



The problem is that in specifying very high performance bi-modes for the MML you now struggle to achieve any journey time savings with electrification.

And thus a business case, one assumes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Then why haven't they issued an update?

That I don’t know. Might be worth asking them through the normal channels?
 

Hadders

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I suspect these cut backs are just the start. Expect to see things like:

Maintenance holidays
New rolling stock not procured
Life expired signalling and track layouts being patched up rather than replaced
3 for 2 on any rolling stock tat does get ordered to reduce maintenance costs
Station refurbishments and maintenance cut back
Cleaning reduced
A push for ticket office closures and more DOO
Fares increased to price passengers off rather than procure more capacity
 

johnnychips

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I suspect these cut backs are just the start. Expect to see things like:

Maintenance holidays
New rolling stock not procured
Life expired signalling and track layouts being patched up rather than replaced
3 for 2 on any rolling stock tat does get ordered to reduce maintenance costs
Station refurbishments and maintenance cut back
Cleaning reduced
A push for ticket office closures and more DOO
Fares increased to price passengers off rather than procure more capacity
Is your real name Mr Grinch? :D

Hope your predictions aren’t right, but the one thing we won’t see in the next year is reduced cleaning!
 

Hadders

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Is your real name Mr Grinch? :D

Hope your predictions aren’t right, but the one thing we won’t see in the next year is reduced cleaning!

I hope my predictions aren't right, but I fear they will be....

It feels like back to the 80s
 

Jozhua

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NR hardly gave themselves any credibility they could deliver big projects after the GW Electrification fiasco and that was just one project that got exposed. Almost every project is overspent and thats despite the vast army of support staff that the project function carry that good old BR managed to do with out. They have estimators, value management teams, risk management teams, project controls, planners often sourced from consultancies on day rates that will make your eyes water and they still couldn't keep control of projects (Crossrail was infected with the same ethos as well and many NR people migrated there and now have moved onto HS2).
The GRIP process facilitated this largesse and consigned getting things done to a secondary outcome so im delighted to see it consigned to the bin and replaced with something that should allow the railway spirit of getting things done to flourish again as well costing in less. Project Speed is just what is needed but it will take a while to change out the GRIP culture so Haines is right to target a few projects that showcase what the industry can do when it has the will.
You see the problem is, the government is always unwilling to put forwards money to solve these things. So industry tries to do everything it can to reduce costs, but ends up just spending a load of money on bean-counters, "competitive bidding", bureaucracy, etc. The constant feast/famine of funding is significantly worsening the situation too. Projects like HS2 have gone so over-budget because the DfT has been trying to put all the risk on bidders, who have then just shoved all their prices up, because many of these contractors haven't done a big project like this, at least in the UK for decades and there can be unexpected situations (aka COVID) that may extend construction time and cost, so they really can't guarantee a specific figure.

What needs to happen, is realistic timescales and cost expectations from the DfT itself. Be willing to put forwards a decent level of funding, over an extended period of time, with a good long term roadmap of what the railway should best look like to serve future needs.

What also doesn't help, is a general public who has no gauge for what things like this cost, who then have £100bn figures waved in their faces and are told this is some ungodly amount of money, when in reality, it is a lot, but it's pretty standard for these kinds of projects.
I'll give a good example, I asked some family how much they thought the Boeing 737 we had just flown on holiday on cost:

Some said half a million, some said a few million. None of them got close to the £80 million figure.

Most people just generally never see sums of money much more than five figures, which is reasonable when talking about individual or household finances. However, when you scale that up to an entire country, the sums of money become an entirely different ballpark. Even at £100bn, HS2 would chalk up to £1500 per person. Over ten years, that's £150 per year, for high speed rail and extra capacity on the existing network for a significant amount of the country. HS2 is designed to last for 120 years, so per year the cost to each individual after it opens is £12.80.
 

Surreyman

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Well on a positive note, all that money that Northern have spent on refurbishing their 15X DMU fleets isn't going to be wasted!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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You see the problem is, the government is always unwilling to put forwards money to solve these things. So industry tries to do everything it can to reduce costs, but ends up just spending a load of money on bean-counters, "competitive bidding", bureaucracy, etc. The constant feast/famine of funding is significantly worsening the situation too. Projects like HS2 have gone so over-budget because the DfT has been trying to put all the risk on bidders, who have then just shoved all their prices up, because many of these contractors haven't done a big project like this, at least in the UK for decades and there can be unexpected situations (aka COVID) that may extend construction time and cost, so they really can't guarantee a specific figure.
BR faced these issues but it earned the trust of the DofT who then authorised many projects year after year in the 1980's. We then went on and delivered them successfully ( i was personally involved in all the third rail extensions all delivered on time and to budget). Our success on these projects in my view came from us being responsible for the whole project with multiple discipline teams coordinated by light touch Project Managers. We were all in it together and specifically managed our risks and used the railway family ethos to help each other out. The rot set in when Railtrack came in and created the Major Projects Division largely staffed by outsides who didnt understand the environment and adopted a risk transfer to a single main contractor. This then created multiple interfaces with sub contractors with everyone wanting there mark up along with a huge cottage industry around how you allow contractors to access the operation railway. In BR we made use of the maintenance teams to support us and they benefited from the overtime!.

Doubt we can ever get back to that situation but over many years the Works Delivery Teams have been making good inroads on smaller renewal projects and have shown that the raw get in done spirit is still alive in the workforce.
 

Grumpy Git

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It never ceases to amaze me that a lot of those in charge of these projects don't have a clue what they are doing. Hence the massive influx of highly paid "consultants" who are not much better.

More money is spent on risk aversion than on actually getting the job done. I see it all the time in my industry, (not rail).
 

RT4038

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More money is spent on risk aversion than on actually getting the job done. I see it all the time in my industry, (not rail).

Which, in turn, is caused by our 'blame and shame' culture. We get what we deserve!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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How can it when the those funding the OLE installation, the Treasury, cannot force the operator of the Bi-modes to give them up for electric trains and then dictate where the released Bi-modes go to the greatest advantage of the business case?

The DfT did just that with the IEP fleets (GWR and LNER).
They specified and contracted the trains (and the bi-mode/electric mix) and then told the franchise bidders how to use them (for 27 years!).
They did the same with the Thameslink class 700 fleet, and are doing the same with the HS2 fleet.
Other franchises (with private money) get a bit more choice, but it gave us 3 fragmented fleets on TPE.

That GWR doesn't operate any straight electric trains to Cardiff is entirely down to DfT (and NR's inability to wire to Bristol because of cost overruns).

On the other hand, when DfT has control of all the current franchises with direct awards, they can dictate what happens to the existing fleets.
 

HSTEd

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What we have now in the railway industry, like many other ex-nationalised industries, is a market without prices and a central planning system with no planners.
 

Jozhua

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BR faced these issues but it earned the trust of the DofT who then authorised many projects year after year in the 1980's. We then went on and delivered them successfully ( i was personally involved in all the third rail extensions all delivered on time and to budget). Our success on these projects in my view came from us being responsible for the whole project with multiple discipline teams coordinated by light touch Project Managers. We were all in it together and specifically managed our risks and used the railway family ethos to help each other out. The rot set in when Railtrack came in and created the Major Projects Division largely staffed by outsides who didnt understand the environment and adopted a risk transfer to a single main contractor. This then created multiple interfaces with sub contractors with everyone wanting there mark up along with a huge cottage industry around how you allow contractors to access the operation railway. In BR we made use of the maintenance teams to support us and they benefited from the overtime!.

Doubt we can ever get back to that situation but over many years the Works Delivery Teams have been making good inroads on smaller renewal projects and have shown that the raw get in done spirit is still alive in the workforce.
This is really interesting - an often overlooked aspect is people. People with prior experience tend to be faster at their jobs, working out better ways of working, etc. Maximising potential in Human Resources is arguably more important than any "gadget bahn" style solutions.
Which, in turn, is caused by our 'blame and shame' culture. We get what we deserve!
True, and the funny thing is, the politicians at the top who look to find someone to blame, have no-one but themselves to take it
What we have now in the railway industry, like many other ex-nationalised industries, is a market without prices and a central planning system with no planners.
Seems like it. It's essentially proto-nationalised anyway.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Chris Heaton Harris was challenged over this at yesterdays Transport Committee and confirms it is a 1B but impact not yet assessed but made the point many projects have shifted to the right due to Covid so unlikely to have achieved all the spend. Wouldn't be drawn on what schemes have been impacted yet as working through it with NR.
 

swt_passenger

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Chris Heaton Harris was challenged over this at yesterdays Transport Committee and confirms it is a 1B but impact not yet assessed but made the point many projects have shifted to the right due to Covid so unlikely to have achieved all the spend. Wouldn't be drawn on what schemes have been impacted yet as working through it with NR.
^^^
Which is exactly what we’ve been discussing isn’t it? It’s not really the big scare story people want it to be, and as I mentioned in the speculation version of this thread, 10% of project spend being delayed to the next CP would not actually be unusual...
 

Class 170101

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^^^
Which is exactly what we’ve been discussing isn’t it? It’s not really the big scare story people want it to be, and as I mentioned in the speculation version of this thread, 10% of project spend being delayed to the next CP would not actually be unusual...

But I doubt that £1bn will actually appear in Control Period 7 as a deferral from the current period as extra spending, it will still be lost to the Industry.
 

Bald Rick

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Another factor to bear in mind is Project Speed. It is intended to deliver projects much more quickly. This has two consequences:

1) delivering long duration projects more quickly (but not too quickly) usually makes them cheaper. 10% isn’t out of the question.

2) many of the projects to be delivered more quickly had some / most of their delivery in CP7. Delivering them more quickly brings a proportion of that spend into CP6. Except I have no doubt that Treasury will not permit that, and any such works will have to be funded from within the £9.4m.
 

ABB125

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Another factor to bear in mind is Project Speed. It is intended to deliver projects much more quickly. This has two consequences:

1) delivering long duration projects more quickly (but not too quickly) usually makes them cheaper. 10% isn’t out of the question.
Which begs the question, why hasn't anyone tried this before?*

*I suspect that someone may have, but it worked so no-one's ever heard about it?
 

Bald Rick

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Which begs the question, why hasn't anyone tried this before?*

*I suspect that someone may have, but it worked so no-one's ever heard about it?

Well, it’s been boiling frogs for project schedules for a long time. Generally driven by an aversion to disrupt the train service either through planned works or overruns. But also an aversion of going over budget, so the level of checking and assurance has increased steadily over the years (which in itself increases costs and schedules). In my view it’s been worse than the cost increases, indeed it has driven much of the cost increases.
 

NoRoute

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What also doesn't help, is a general public who has no gauge for what things like this cost, who then have £100bn figures waved in their faces and are told this is some ungodly amount of money, when in reality, it is a lot, but it's pretty standard for these kinds of projects.
I'll give a good example, I asked some family how much they thought the Boeing 737 we had just flown on holiday on cost:

Some said half a million, some said a few million. None of them got close to the £80 million figure.

Most people just generally never see sums of money much more than five figures, which is reasonable when talking about individual or household finances. However, when you scale that up to an entire country, the sums of money become an entirely different ballpark. Even at £100bn, HS2 would chalk up to £1500 per person. Over ten years, that's £150 per year, for high speed rail and extra capacity on the existing network for a significant amount of the country. HS2 is designed to last for 120 years, so per year the cost to each individual after it opens is £12.80.

The public's scepticism is quite right because outside of London, around the rest of the country, there are many rail and infrastructure improvements which cost a small fraction of that, just noise in the scheme of the HS-2 budget, which are popular with local communities but go absolutely no-where for decades because the funding isn't available.

So we have a general public who had it drummed into them for so long that money simply isn't available for even minor things in their communities, who then suddenly find there's a near bottomless pit of money for HS-2. Their local council can't afford to fix the bus shelters, but the bus services have been cut to the bone anyway, the roads are full of pot holes and there isn't even a normal train service to their local towns, but suddenly central government has shaken the magic money tree and hey there's £100Bn for a new high speed rail line. There's nothing for you and your community, but heck it's only £150 a year per person.

The whole line about 'releasing capacity' is fundamentally flawed, firstly because there's no direct capacity effects for large parts of the country outside the HS-2 catchment area, secondly because HS-2 by-passes many towns along its route and that extra capacity is coming from removal of services which currently stop at some of these towns (some towns will get a worse service post HS-2) and thirdly because there's the naivete of the HS-2 enthusiasts in believing that the £100Bn spent on HS-2 won't be part funded from funding cuts to the rest of the rail network. Ultimately there's only so much rail funding to go around and a sizeable chunk of that £100Bn for HS-2 will come from the existing network, so there won't be the cash to fund some huge growth in new services from al of the 'released capacity'.

HS-2 is an example of the huge disparity we see, where local projects get starved of investment but major government project get blank cheques.
 
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