A Trip from Kings Cross

[MidnightFlyer]

I was having a run on the ECML yesterday, doing KGX-New Barnet, New Barnet-WGC and return. As anybody who uses it knows, at KGX there are two booking offices, the main one, with a queue often of about 35 people, and the FCC one, in the construction site. There was a woman there (the small FCC one) asking about something to do with St Pancras and tickets, holding up a queue of abput 5 people, asking questions like ' how do I get to St Pancras', and taking all the time oin the world. Why do people do this? they ask straightforward questions about directions and where's this and that, and time sof trains to wherever to booking office staff who have other jobs to do. What do they waste time when other people need the services of the staff for a proper reason, I was in the queue behind her, eventually I just took the risk of my penalty fare and went to WGC, outside of my 1-6 Zone Travelcard, luckily i had time at New Barnet to buy a valid ticket, but why dod people waste time on staff asking questions they could ask someone else?

 

[route:oxford]

I was having a run on the ECML yesterday, doing KGX-New Barnet, New Barnet-WGC and return. As anybody who uses it knows, at KGX there are two booking offices, the main one, with a queue often of about 35 people, and the FCC one, in the construction site. There was a woman there (the small FCC one) asking about something to do with St Pancras and tickets, holding up a queue of abput 5 people, asking questions like ' how do I get to St Pancras', and taking all the time oin the world. Why do people do this? they ask straightforward questions about directions and where's this and that, and time sof trains to wherever to booking office staff who have other jobs to do. What do they waste time when other people need the services of the staff for a proper reason, I was in the queue behind her, eventually I just took the risk of my penalty fare and went to WGC, outside of my 1-6 Zone Travelcard, luckily i had time at New Barnet to buy a valid ticket, but why dod people waste time on staff asking questions they could ask someone else?

Sounds like a "mystery shopper".

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sounds like a "mystery shopper".

What does that mean?

 

[stut]

Lots of potential reasons.

King's Cross, particularly at the moment, could be rather overwhelming for somebody not used to London, or to rail travel.

Some people lack the confidence to approach others with such queries, particularly when everybody seems to be in such a rush (as is often the case at London stations) - somebody in uniform is much more approachable.

Some people spend much of their life alone and savour even the briefest human contact.

Some people have little concept of being in a huge rush, and wouldn't imagine people would leave such little time to do something like catch a train (I know plenty who wouldn't consider getting to the station any later than 15 minutes before a train leaves).

There's precious little information, and no 'information' counter in that part of the station. If you arrive on platforms 9-11 right now, you might as well be in a crowded shed with a handful of gates on it.

 

[ainsworth74]

What does that mean?

Someone her TOC has hired to go and ask a load of difficult questions to test her customer service skills and knowledge of ticketing and the surrounding area.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yeah, was more the stuff llike 'where is St Pancras' and questions like that she was aking that got to me. It says 'Tickets' above the window, I just wished she'd have seen the queue behind her...
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Someone her TOC has hired to go and ask a load of difficult questions to test her customer service skills and knowledge of ticketing and the surrounding area.

COuld ahve done it when there wasn't a queue of 5 people behind her, all desperate to get a train in 10 mins, especially when there was a reduced service

 

[generalvegitable]

a mystery shopper is someone who works for your company who comes in and pretends to be a customer, while they do this they are secretly testing the staff, it could be their customer service, their knowledge of the area or whatever, after that they report back to the company's head office with their findings and the head office then tell the staff how they did, and if they have done badly they get disciplined.

the staff have no idea when the mystery shopper will come, what they will do, or who it is, anyone could be the mystery shopper, even someone you know could be doing that

 

[mumrar]

If someone is lost and trying to find a station, the first thing they will look for is a member of staff to ask, regardless of their job. The booking office has the advantage of the member of staff usually in one guaranteed place, unlike station staff who roam around. It is quite often the case on the railway to be asked the wrong question for your job. As a guard I've been asked directions to a local business to a station I work to (how would I know?), what platform/time service X leaves from, even though I've just rolled in to the station myself. Where someone will drive to pick them up from (car park etc). Where the nearest cash point is. Why service X was cancelled (particularly funny when they're asking about the inward journey and I've just started 14:00). Can I carry someones case over the footbridge. I guess the OP would expect me to turn any of these requests down and just say it's not my job to know, but how is that going to help the confused traveller?

It strikes me that a few people on here have nothing but utter contempt for customers or staff that don't know absolutely everything already.

 

[jon0844]

I did chuckle thinking that someone would spend time asking where St Pancras was at that ticket office. You can see St Pancras clearer than King's Cross itself in this position!!!

Mystery shoppers don't just ask awkward questions (that is probably too obvious) but are meant to ask even the most straight forward, mundane, questions to see how people react - no doubt to having been asked a million times before, and gradually getting more and more disinterested. However, I doubt a mystery shopper would deliberately hold up a long queue for no good reason.

This is one reason why you should have more than one window open at any given time, as you obviously can't tell when someone will come in that asks a million questions and then asks again and again, possibly not even travelling at that moment - or even that day.

Mind you, I've gone to a ticket window with no queue to ask some complicated stuff, then loads of people arrive and by then it's too late for me to go - and I do feel bad. If possible, I'll let people in front if I am travelling later.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If someone is lost and trying to find a station, the first thing they will look for is a member of staff to ask, regardless of their job. The booking office has the advantage of the member of staff usually in one guaranteed place, unlike station staff who roam around. It is quite often the case on the railway to be asked the wrong question for your job. As a guard I've been asked directions to a local business to a station I work to (how would I know?), what platform/time service X leaves from, even though I've just rolled in to the station myself. Where someone will drive to pick them up from (car park etc). Where the nearest cash point is. Why service X was cancelled (particularly funny when they're asking about the inward journey and I've just started 14:00). Can I carry someones case over the footbridge. I guess the OP would expect me to turn any of these requests down and just say it's not my job to know, but how is that going to help the confused traveller?

It strikes me that a few people on here have nothing but utter contempt for customers or staff that don't know absolutely everything already.

I actually would, in a booking office, say 'look, its not my job to know'! The gateline crew are evrywhere near there, they could help, but when she saw everyone waiting, she carried on leisurely asking questions - surely you would hurry up. As your a TM, when someone asks you 'where's the nearest taxi rank?' what do you do?
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It strikes me that a few people on here have nothing but utter contempt for customers or staff that don't know absolutely everything already.

I dont have contempt, just find it a bit annoying, when theres a massive queue behind, that shes asking questiobns to someone thats its not even in their job description to know. Especially where St PAncras is!

 

[Greenback]

If someone is lost and trying to find a station, the first thing they will look for is a member of staff to ask, regardless of their job. The booking office has the advantage of the member of staff usually in one guaranteed place, unlike station staff who roam around. It is quite often the case on the railway to be asked the wrong question for your job. As a guard I've been asked directions to a local business to a station I work to (how would I know?), what platform/time service X leaves from, even though I've just rolled in to the station myself. Where someone will drive to pick them up from (car park etc). Where the nearest cash point is. Why service X was cancelled (particularly funny when they're asking about the inward journey and I've just started 14:00). Can I carry someones case over the footbridge. I guess the OP would expect me to turn any of these requests down and just say it's not my job to know, but how is that going to help the confused traveller?

It strikes me that a few people on here have nothing but utter contempt for customers or staff that don't know absolutely everything already.

Rail staff must be used to being asked many strange uestions. I never quite got used to the number and types of questions I had to answer at the booking office!

I did chuckle thinking that someone would spend time asking where St Pancras was at that ticket office. You can see St Pancras clearer than King's Cross itself in this position!!!

Mystery shoppers don't just ask awkward questions (that is probably too obvious) but are meant to ask even the most straight forward, mundane, questions to see how people react - no doubt to having been asked a million times before, and gradually getting more and more disinterested. However, I doubt a mystery shopper would deliberately hold up a long queue for no good reason.

This is one reason why you should have more than one window open at any given time, as you obviously can't tell when someone will come in that asks a million questions and then asks again and again, possibly not even travelling at that moment - or even that day.

Mind you, I've gone to a ticket window with no queue to ask some complicated stuff, then loads of people arrive and by then it's too late for me to go - and I do feel bad. If possible, I'll let people in front if I am travelling later.

Yes! We need more ticket windows open, not less!! (Grenback is back on his favourite hobby horse!)

I actually would, in a booking office, say 'look, its not my job to know'! The gateline crew are evrywhere near there, they could help, but when she saw everyone waiting, she carried on leisurely asking questions - surely you would hurry up. As your a TM, when someone asks you 'where's the nearest taxi rank?' what do you do?
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I dont have contempt, just find it a bit annoying, when theres a massive queue behind, that shes asking questiobns to someone thats its not even in their job description to know. Especially where St PAncras is!

If you say anything like that you will soon be out of a job! As railway staff you would be expected to know absolutely everything, from the location of the nearest lottery seller, to the price of a room at the Holiday Inn. Not to mention an encyclopedic knowledge of local buses, routes times and fares!

At the end of the day, the customer is still a customer. It is not the customer's fault if the TOC cannot provide adequate facilities, thus causing a delay to other customers!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Point taken about needing more windows open. FCC wanted to cut opening times at booking offices at 'quiet' places like Flitwick, Hertford North and Huntington etc to something like 0600-0900 M-F and that's it, as well as unstaffing the stations on Moorgate-Finsbury Park. Stupid

 

[Greenback]

It's not just FCC. SWT also want to make further cutbacks. It's all based on the fallacy that customers can buy their tickets at TVM's. Coincidentally of course, the TVM's work out a lot cheaper to run than a ticket office, and provide plenty of opportunity for additional revenue through Penalty Fares!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm inclined to take completely the opposite view from the OP on this, although I do realise that there are always going to be days where we're in a hurry and/or we're trying to do a lot in the one day and a small delay will have a big effect on our plans.

I find it troubling that we would ever not want to spend as much time as it takes with someone, and the more assistance or assurance they need, then the more I'd hope that it is given willingly.
We are so used to the sophisticated systems which are in place to allow us to rush through our day at high speed, sometimes even at stressful speed, that we easily forget that ordinary human contact and mutual support is far more valuable than fast mechanised processing systems.

Why do people do this?

If someone is slow, standing in Kings Cross, asking someone where St Pancras is, then they quite clearly don't know where St Pancras is. They are asking for, and are in need of, help and assurance. They are not in a stress induced panic that things are not happening quickly. They are the very person we should be going out of our way to assist, and at their own pace.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

the TVM's work out a lot cheaper to run than a ticket office,!

Is that true or sarcasm?

 

[Greenback]

I agree. There is far too much rush and impatience in modern life. Although I have to disagree when I am getting on a bus in the pouring rain and someone at the front is fumbling about with change while I get soaked!

 

[ainsworth74]

Booking windows and the numbers of them open really should be prescribed into Franchise's. I dislike DfT meddling but in this case I'm willing to make an exception.
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Is that true or sarcasm?

Well which do you think is cheaper a machine or the wage, benefits and pension of a person?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I agree. There is far too much rush and impatience in modern life. Although I have to disagree when I am getting on a bus in the pouring rain and someone at the front is fumbling about with change while I get soaked!

And I disagree when I'm stuck in a queue at KGX waiting to buy a ticket for a train leaving in 5 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Booking windows and the numbers of them open really should be prescribed into Franchise's. I dislike DfT meddling but in this case I'm willing to make an exception.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well which do you think is cheaper a machine or the wage, benefits and pension of a person?

Good point. But having actually a human stood in front of you is a lot more reassuring to me and comfortable than a machine. Could see a hall of a load of booking offices closing in London within the next couple of years with Oyster Cards... places like Acton ML, Castle Bar Park and Northolt Park etc, though LO will remain because it would look bad on TfL's record

 

[mumrar]

And I disagree when I'm stuck in a queue at KGX waiting to buy a ticket for a train leaving in 5 minutes.

Don't you think you should allow yourself longer to buy a ticket then. Exoecting to get to the office and be served and complete the transaction in a hurry and still catch your train in 5 minutes is tight.

I note that you were rushed, but when you say this customer should have moved aside, what makes you think she wasn't in a hurry for that information too?

 

[jon0844]

It's not just FCC. SWT also want to make further cutbacks. It's all based on the fallacy that customers can buy their tickets at TVM's. Coincidentally of course, the TVM's work out a lot cheaper to run than a ticket office, and provide plenty of opportunity for additional revenue through Penalty Fares!

Let's see the DfT say that you can go with only TVMs but must stop issuing penalty fares, on the basis that the machines can't be assured of taking all forms of payment (notes, giving change, cards), cannot answer specific questions, issue extensions, issue tickets for future travel (in most cases, give or take the next day - after 3pm the day before), issue all the tickets that are available from a ticket desk... (need I go on?)

Do that and let's see how many TOCs opt to close ticket windows or reduce the hours to the minimum. If they're genuinely interested in both saving money and not having staff sitting around doing nothing off-peak, they should be more than happy to do that.

Now we've got the other thread about wheelchair access, I suppose you can also include the need for every station to have staff on hand to assist whenever trains are running - even if the station only has a handful of users at certain times of the day.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Don't you think you should allow yourself longer to buy a ticket then. Exoecting to get to the office and be served and complete the transaction in a hurry and still catch your train in 5 minutes is tight.

I note that you were rushed, but when you say this customer should have moved aside, what makes you think she wasn't in a hurry for that information too?

I'll show you why I had 5 mins: 0917 PRE-CRE; 1029 CRE-EUS, I think after that the 1234 LST-ROM; train was 20 late from ROM to LST, to Kings Cross, (taxi was slowwww), across the station to the otherside, queued for 8 MINS, thought stuff it, and hoped there was no RPI onboard. but I had a 1-6TC to get me to New barnet, where I legged it to the ticket office, brough the ticket to WGC, back down the other side, to the train, to WGC and back to KGX. If anyone's curious as to why i didnt just get the next train or had a run to romford first, the word is crossovers. . I also had to be back for the 1720 MAN,
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Let's see the DfT say that you can go with only TVMs but must stop issuing penalty fares, on the basis that the machines can't be assured of taking all forms of payment (notes, giving change, cards), cannot answer specific questions, issue extensions, issue tickets for future travel (in most cases, give or take the next day - after 3pm the day before), issue all the tickets that are available from a ticket desk... (need I go on?)

Do that and let's see how many TOCs opt to close ticket windows or reduce the hours to the minimum. If they're genuinely interested in both saving money and not having staff sitting around doing nothing off-peak, they should be more than happy to do that.

Now we've got the other thread about wheelchair access, I suppose you can also include the need for every station to have staff on hand to assist whenever trains are running - even if the station only has a handful of users at certain times of the day.

Thing is staff aren't just there to sit on there arses and do nothing off-peak, they are also there as reassurance and security (I'm sure more people feel comfirtable on a staffed station than they do on one with CCTV and a help point. All stations with over 100,000 passengers a year should be manned, also a good question: how many more people feel comfortable using a ticket office than a TVM. I think, given the choice, 90%+ would use the human option

 

[jon0844]

I didn't say staff don't do anything off-peak, although at a station like Brookmans Park, I'd hazard a guess they actually do get very bored (can they watch TV or go on the Internet?) but that's the perception by the TOCs who think a TVM will suffice.

And I don't believe that for one second - especially because of the last bit, people feeling more comfortable using a ticket office. Even if you do get the right ticket from a TVM, irregular travellers will probably always wonder if they did. That doesn't paint a good picture for the railway.

Indeed, TVMs are more for regular travellers who are in a hurry, and yet the machines possibly don't issue the tickets they want!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I didn't say staff don't do anything off-peak, although at a station like Brookmans Park, I'd hazard a guess they actually do get very bored (can they watch TV or go on the Internet?) but that's the perception by the TOCs who think a TVM will suffice.

And I don't believe that for one second - especially because of the last bit, people feeling more comfortable using a ticket office. Even if you do get the right ticket from a TVM, irregular travellers will probably always wonder if they did. That doesn't paint a good picture for the railway.

Indeed, TVMs are more for regular travellers who are in a hurry, and yet the machines possibly don't issue the tickets they want!

I think they can go on the Internet, just so ong as they keep one eye on the outside etc, can you just explain that middle paragraph, I dont get it!!!

 

[Greenback]

Booking office staff can do a lot more than just issue tickets and take money for the TOC. They do provide reassurance and security. They can answer questions about fares, provide help with restrictions, and answer all sorts of general questions (as we've seen in this thread) while acting as the public face of the raiwlay and the TOC.

At smaller stations they can be multi functional, providing disabled assistance and despatching trains.

Unfortunately,as jon says, TOC's believe that, unless an office is issuing x amount of tickets per hour, the staff are sititng around drinking tea and reading the paper. In reality, they are dealing with customers inw ays that don't appear on the balance sheet! Some examples are: looking up train times, issuing replacement season tickets, maintaining TVM's, receiving refund applications, giving directions(!), dealing with complaints, sorting out problems with pre booked tickets, making reservations, or issuing zero fare excesses!

I quite agree that TVM's have a role to play, but it is to supplement the ticket office not to replace it. I also agree with Yorkie's view that some booking office staff do not do themselves any favours by refusing to issue certain tickets (like excesses!)

 

[jon0844]

I think they can go on the Internet, just so ong as they keep one eye on the outside etc, can you just explain that middle paragraph, I dont get it!!!

I said that you would feel more confident you bought the right ticket from there than a machine, if you were someone who doesn't travel and understand all those nice 'simple' tickets you can get!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It was a response to you saying people prefer a ticket window. And I said that you would feel more confident you bought the right ticket from there than a machine, if you're someone who doesn't travel and understand all those nice 'simple' tickets you can get!

so do you support having booking offices - sorry my brain's a bit slow.........

 

[jon0844]

Absolutely. And, I also support machines - with improved software and a wider range of tickets. I'd also recommend 'quick ticket' machines that can issue a handful of tickets, like returns to major cities (e.g. London), Travelcards and the like.

TVMs as they stand can't replace booking offices, but even if they eventually could - I'd keep staff to deal with enquiries or offer some sort of security presence.

If you're talking about a station that only has a couple of trains per day, then I guess there are exceptions - but you should probably close the station entirely - which would cut crime at the stations too.

For now, I'm not talking about those quiet, rural, stations - but the planned cuts for ticket office staffing include stations that are busy and the TOC simply thinks a machine will do.

 

[Greenback]

Another drawback of the current TVM's is that they can be quite slow to use if you are unfamiliar with them. Which is why I agree with jon that a quick ticket machine would be a good idea.

 

[paul1609]

I think that more ticket offices are very unlikely.
Lets face it within five years paper tickets with in the South East are likely to somewhat of a threatened species probably limited to premium anytime products for visitors . The rest of us will be using itso enabled smartcards. Many stations will have booking offices limited to a few hours in the morning peak and many suburban stations will be tvm only.

 

[jon0844]

I agree, with smartcards being the future, but we want to keep the staff and not allow the railway to become totally unstaffed as it could do if restrictions aren't put into place.