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Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

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bramling

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What an awful generation they are. The world seems to have always been in their favour and of course, in their youth, they didn't have to shut down for the Hong Kong flu pandemic (at that point, many of them were around my age but didn't have a year of their life ruined).

I must admit I am really coming round to this conclusion. The generation does very much seem to be characterised by a deeply distasteful “something for nothing” attitude; and the worst thing is they’re utterly shameless with it.
 
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yorksrob

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I really don't think that this is a generational issue. I'm sure that the majority of older residents in the working age bracket would be happy to either battle through or take early retirement and manage their own risk, without shutting down the country.

This is about the political class and its advisors pushing an agenda of lockdown at all costs.
 

43066

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What an awful generation they are. The world seems to have always been in their favour and of course, in their youth, they didn't have to shut down for the Hong Kong flu pandemic (at that point, many of them were around my age but didn't have a year of their life ruined).

That’s a little harsh. People cannot help when they’re born and some generations are luckier than others. I’d suggest it generally isn’t baby boomers who are being paid to sit at home, and taking to face book and Twitter to argue for this to continue. It’s much younger people in the main.

My parents are late baby boomers - retired - and hate what’s going on to the point where they are now breaking the rules. Some other very elderly relatives (in their 90s, with health conditions) also hate the way the overreaction to the pandemic is blighting what little remains of their lives.

I really don't think that this is a generational issue. I'm sure that the majority of older residents in the working age bracket would be happy to either battle through or take early retirement and manage their own risk, without shutting down the country.

This is about the political class and its advisors pushing an agenda of lockdown at all costs.

Agreed. And one generation turning against another is only playing into Cumming’s hands. Along with masks, it’s yet more divide and conquer.
 

ainsworth74

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I really don't think that this is a generational issue. I'm sure that the majority of older residents in the working age bracket would be happy to either battle through or take early retirement and manage their own risk, without shutting down the country.

This is about the political class and its advisors pushing an agenda of lockdown at all costs.

Perhaps but it does get hard to avoid the feeling that there's been a decision to protect the older members of society no matter the cost financially (or in mental health) it might bring upon the younger members. But 'twas ever thus for the Tory party see the protections afforded to pensioners during the austerity of the first part of the 2010s compared to savage cuts made to a range of services and social security used by working age people.

That’s a little harsh. People cannot help when they’re born and some generations are luckier than others. I’d suggest it generally isn’t baby boomers who are being paid to sit at home, and taking to face book and Twitter to argue for this to continue. It’s much younger people in the main.

Though of course the only reason they're having to stay at home and be paid for jobs that they cannot now do (and may well not exist in the near future) is due to having their careers and prospects lined up as a sacrifice to protect the older members of society.
 
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RT4038

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This is about the political class and its advisors pushing an agenda of lockdown at all costs.

Any why would they want to do that? You make it sound like there could be an ulterior motive for having a lockdown (i.e nothing to do with Covid)? This seems very unlikely.

At both Lockdown 1 and Lockdown 2 there is plenty of criticism that the government did not Lockdown early enough. Perhaps this shows that lockdown was only entered into when there was no other option politically. (weighing public opinion vs. health care capacity).
 

yorksrob

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That’s a little harsh. People cannot help when they’re born and some generations are luckier than others. I’d suggest it generally isn’t baby boomers who are being paid to sit at home, and taking to face book and Twitter to argue for this to continue. It’s much younger people in the main.

My parents are late baby boomers - retired - and hate what’s going on to the point where they are now breaking the rules. Some other very elderly relatives (in their 90s, with health conditions) also hate the way the overreaction to the pandemic is blighting what little remains of their lives.



Agreed. And one generation turning against another is only playing into Cumming’s hands. Along with masks, it’s yet more divide and conquer.

Yes absolutely. As a country, we would be better off examining the data provided and it's various omissions and shortcomings.
 

DustyBin

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I am not dismissing those peoples concerns, I am pointing out that they are not the only concerns. Which concerns are more important? Depends where you stand.

That's fair enough but when you say "So being anti lockdown all boils down to the effect on their money, and the inconvenience to which they may be put?" it sounds dismissive and almost accusatory.

You also miss the point that while the bad outcomes of this lockdown are clear, it's far less clear what te positive ones might be - if it reduces the infection rate (which was already looking to be reducing anyway), so what? There is still no exit strategy so the situation just drags on. A vaccine is always a few months away but never arrives - unsurprisingly given that they usually take a couple of years at least. If one never appears, or not until the pandemic has died down anyway, all the measures will have achieved precisely nothing positive but caused massive amounts of damage.

This is the issue. The sacrifices people are being asked to make have no clear benefit, there are too many questions over the timing and the effectiveness of the measures, and no apparent exit strategy. I don't think it's fair to accuse people of being selfish and to tell them they need to be more altruistic under these circumstances. If the governement were able to present credible evidence that the virus was going to be the cause (or even primary cause) of thousands of deaths this winter I think people would be more supportive of the lockdown.
 

yorksrob

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Perhaps but it does get hard to avoid the feeling that there's been a decision to protect the older members of society no matter the cost financially (or in mental health) it might bring upon the younger members. But 'twas ever thus for the Tory party see the protections afforded to pensioners during the austerity of the first part of the 2010s compared to savage cuts made to a range of services and social security used by working age people.

We can pick apart the extremely damaging austerity agenda, but it's noticable that in this particular crisis how vocal many older people are against these measures, and it's also noticable that almost all of the opposition parties are as lockdown happy as the Tories, if not moreso.
 

yorksrob

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Any why would they want to do that? You make it sound like there could be an ulterior motive for having a lockdown (i.e nothing to do with Covid)? This seems very unlikely.

At both Lockdown 1 and Lockdown 2 there is plenty of criticism that the government did not Lockdown early enough. Perhaps this shows that lockdown was only entered into when there was no other option politically. (weighing public opinion vs. health care capacity).

I wouldn't say ulterior motive, more getting the balance wrong. That said, I cannot understand why they would be insistant on tier 3 restrictions that are guaranteed to not be effective (for example). Perhaps it's a way of getting people "to take it more seriously" by getting rid of the frivolity of hospitality, although the pubs and restaurants I've been in over the past few months have been taking their responsibility very seriously.
 

RT4038

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Agreed. And one generation turning against another is only playing into Cumming’s hands. Along with masks, it’s yet more divide and conquer.

Divide and conquer for what?
 

yorksrob

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Why would it necessarily be shared? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Why wouldn't they ?

The evidence isn't provided by secret agents whose lives would be at risk if it were shared. It won't be commercially sensitive. The only plausible reason is that the "evidence" that does exist, is infact the shakey, out of date modelling that has been shared.
 

bramling

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Divide and conquer for what?

Apart from that fact that Cummings is alleged to have anarchist tendencies at heart, whilst people bicker amongst themselves it takes focus away from government incompetence. There’s certainly plenty of the latter to see at the moment if one looks in the right direction.

So it certainly suits the government for people to find outlets to cast blame onto. Far better, for example, for the mob to blame everything on those people not wearing masks, as opposed to the failings of the track and trace system, the shortage of PPE available to health care settings earlier in the year, or the Excel shambles. Likewise a distraction from the small question of how on earth we’re going to pay for the costs being accrued with all this.

Fast forward to autumn 2021 “Sorry your tax bill has gone up, don’t blame us if people had worn masks when we told them then we’d have beaten Covid sooner”?
 
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43066

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Though of course the only reason they're having to stay at home and be paid for jobs that they cannot now do (and may well not exist in the near future) is due to having their careers and prospects lined up as a sacrifice to protect the older members of society.

It’s certainly true that they are being sacrificed to save the elderly. But I’m convinced that’s largely in reaction to much younger people calling for it, than anything the baby boomers themselves are doing.

Let’s face it the emotional “Save granny” trope is difficult to rebut without sounding callous, even when it’s used by those whose grannies probably died years ago, but who’ve had a rather cushy year of it (of course by no means all of those who are furloughed feel like this).

Another factor here is that *lots* of younger people genuinely don’t seem to be aware that the majority of Covid victims are elderly, and think the virus poses an existential threat to themselves and their children.

Divide and conquer for what?

To take attention away from how bad a job the government is doing, and the fact that the response to Covid has been (and continues to be) a vast overreaction.
 
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Class 33

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So the furlough scheme now extended until the end of March. This to me suggests the current national lockdown will go on way beyond 2nd December! Or there is planned to be possibly one or two further national lockdowns early next year! And of course this social distancing nonsense will drag on until at least the end of March! This is all a complete farce! We just can't go on like this!

Many are saying that this second national lockdown will be the final nail in the coffin for MANY pubs, restaurants, hotels, etc now. Many just won't be able to survive having to close down again. Many of them will end up closing for good now.

Another press conference this evening at 5pm with Boris and the NHS Chief. Expect that to all be doom and gloom again.
 

adc82140

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Why would it necessarily be shared? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I think withholding important data from the public in a public health crisis which could be used to encourage behavioural change would be beyond odd even by the standards of this government. Can't really envision the conversation: Track and Trace- "there have been a lot of cases in shops. People need to be careful". Whitty et al- "nah, let's not tell 'em"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Another press conference this evening at 5pm with Boris and the NHS Chief. Expect that to all be doom and gloom again.

I find the absence of Chris Whitty notable. Is he in the naughty corner after the 4000 deaths comment and claiming that cases were rising in Liverpool?
 
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bramling

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That’s a little harsh. People cannot help when they’re born and some generations are luckier than others. I’d suggest it generally isn’t baby boomers who are being paid to sit at home, and taking to face book and Twitter to argue for this to continue. It’s much younger people in the main.

My parents are late baby boomers - retired - and hate what’s going on to the point where they are now breaking the rules. Some other very elderly relatives (in their 90s, with health conditions) also hate the way the overreaction to the pandemic is blighting what little remains of their lives.

It will be interesting to see what happens a year or so down the line, when difficult decisions are having to made as to how the economic damage is repaired. My view is very firmly that pensioners are going to have to be expected to take some form of “hit”, just like the rest of us inevitably are.

I have to declare a bit of an interest, as my parents are firmly from the baby boom era, and being brutally honest their attitude stinks at times.
 

Bantamzen

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Presenting differing opinions is fine, and everybody has a slightly different one - however these opinions are easy when there is no responsibility to everyone in their outcome. In every field experts will have different views. Government has to go for one or the other. Perhaps the country should have a referendum on the matter of lockdown, as we know how well they settle things?

Just because we have no responsibility doesn't mean we can't articulate our views, and it doesn't invalidate them.
 

yorksrob

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I hope that the extension of furlough to March is merely a legislative contingency. I fear that it might signal open-ended lockdown.
 

Tomp94

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I think the lockdown will be over in four weeks, the extended furlough is probably a way for businesses to bring some workers back whilst business picks up, whilst the state funds the wages of those not back.

Okay. That's wishful thinking. Of course the lockdown won't be finished in four weeks. The entire country will be placed into tier to or 3, so it'll be lockdown in all but name.

Why are we tolerating this nonsense? Why are we allowing ourselves to be controlled by the fraudulent media and liar politicians and their pseudo science advisors?

I hope that if the lockdown continues beyond 2nd December (or if the entire country is placed into tier 2 or 3) there is rioting on the streets.
 

bramling

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I hope that the extension of furlough to March is merely a legislative contingency. I fear that it might signal open-ended lockdown.

I can’t really see any other reason for doing it, unless there’s some reason why it could leave them open to claims of unfair treatment from the devolved institutions.

The whole point of the November extension was supposedly to cover this lockdown, so it’s hard to see for what other reason it would need to be extended, in England at least as naturally we don’t know what delights Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster may be planning.

It seems quite premature to be coming up with an extension, especially with a quite specific date when it now ends, being essentially the end of what most would regard as the winter months. I’d say that’s quite telling.

I’d say one course is that we all go into tier 3 come December, tapering down for the bare bones of Christmas, then notching up again, perhaps with another full lockdown during the January or February period. Having said that, this assumes there’s actually any planning going on. Another possibility is Sunak thought it makes a nice splash just at the time Boris is pretty certain to be going, in other words early next year.
 

RT4038

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Just because we have no responsibility doesn't mean we can't articulate our views, and it doesn't invalidate them.

Quite. But it doesn't make them practicable or workable or right either. If one did have the responsibility, maybe those views and opinions would be different.
 

duncanp

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The BBC are reporting that Sunak will extend furlough until March. So I think it's a pretty safe bet that this lockdown will last more than 1 month. Perhaps not the full 4 months until March but I bet it'll be most of that time!

I am not sure that there will be a full lockdown until the end of March (as we have in England at the moment), as for one thing that would be more than people can bear physically and mentally, and it would absolutely destroy the economy for years to come.

What is more likely is that there will be some form of restrictions until the end of March, which will mean that employers are cautious about bringing back staff full time.

What an awful generation they are. The world seems to have always been in their favour and of course, in their youth, they didn't have to shut down for the Hong Kong flu pandemic (at that point, many of them were around my age but didn't have a year of their life ruined).

Absolute rubbish.

I was born in 1963 and therefore qualify as a baby boomer.

During my lifetime there has been:-

  • the miners strike and the three day week at the end of 1973
  • 25% inflation and the government being bailed out by the IMF in 1976/1977
  • a deep recession in 1981- 1983
  • another recession in 1991 - 1993 (where I was nearly made redundant six weeks after taking out a mortgage on a flat in London)
  • the dotcom crash in 2000 - 2003
  • the financial crisis of 2007- 2009
  • and a recession in the early 2010s
  • my state pension age being raised twice

So to say that the world has always been in out favour is utterly wrong.

I was made redundant last year from a job in IT 18 months ago, and there is no hope of me getting another job at my age. So I do know what it is like to experience financial hardship and job insecurity.

And don't think all of us "boomers" are in favour of the current lockdown either. I know that we are eventually going to have to pay for all of this, and some of the tax and welfare changes are going to affect me just as much as the younger generation.
 
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DB

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Quite. But it doesn't make them practicable or workable or right either. If one did have the responsibility, maybe those views and opinions would be different.

And maybe they wouldn't.

The governemnt has no clear strategy now - it's just constant knee-jerk reactions with no discernible aim.
 

bramling

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And maybe they wouldn't.

The governemnt has no clear strategy now - it's just constant knee-jerk reactions with no discernible aim.

Pissing in the wind seems about right. I don’t think there’s been a strategy since they abandoned the original herd immunity one. It’s been flapping about ever since.

He does seem to be afraid of being out of step with other European countries though.
 

C J Snarzell

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I was hoping Sunak would put his foot down with Furlough and say enough is enough. Obviously not and now there is very real prospect of repeated lockdowns until at least March.

I said previously - I'm convinced we will go into a third lockdown come January. I can't see the virus case numbers being low enough by the start of December but BJ has to open the economy for Christmas. What then happens is the existing case numbers (which are not going to be low enough in four weeks time) are topped up by the activities of the population over Christmas & New Year, so by the start of 2021, we are in a similar situation to what we have right now.

Sunak seems pretty switched on and has probably forecasted what is likely to happen over the next few months with businesses being affected by restrictions and closures.

CJ
 

Sanatogen

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I suspect the use of tiers will continue after lockdown and extending furlough should reduce the haggling over finances that we saw before.
 

packermac

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You do realise the NHS makes choices like this on a daily basis even during normal times. How do you think organ donations etc. work? They’re given to the individuals who are likely to benefit the most.

Ambulance chasing is done in relation to cases of medical negligence causing injury/death rather than clinical decisions about how best to allocate treatment.
I would suggest that organ transplants are the decision of a group based on an assessed need and hence a list.
"Ambulance chasing" my sarcastic term has already been proven at the expense of many NHS trusts
However Pope v NHS Commissioning Board (2015) may prove relevant from the swine flu era and the following is taken from an article in Hospital Times by Lionel Stride, Barrister at Law for Temple Garden Chambers.

"Fortunately, although these are undoubtedly unique times, some guidance is provided by Pope v NHS Commissioning Board (2015), which considered clinical negligence in the context of swine flu. The patient in this case fell unwell and believed that she had contracted swine flu. She attended a health centre where she was seen by an experienced nurse who examined her and advised her to return home and rest. Two days later the patient was admitted to A&E, where she suffered a cardiac arrest. She was resuscitated but had sustained brain damage which left her profoundly disabled. Investigations revealed that she had swine flu, which was complicated by pneumonia.

The patient subsequently pursued the NHS for medical negligence. At trial, the Court ruled that there had been a breach of duty and that this was causative of the claimant’s brain damage. Under national guidance, any flu-like illness was to be managed as swine flu. Had the nurse followed this guidance then she would have measured the patient’s blood saturation levels, found them to be low and would then have referred and admitted her to hospital. Had the patient been admitted, she would have been treated appropriately for swine flu and would have avoided the cardiac arrest.

While every case is factually specific, the principle of Pope is that, even in times of an unprecedented health crisis, the courts approach the issue of clinical negligence as they always do; by examining the state of knowledge of the medical profession at the material time and asking whether a reasonable body of professionals would have acted in the same way. It must be remembered, however, that the extent of any strain on resources, and potentially the more limited ability to perform some types of emergency care, will undoubtedly impact on this analysis.

Ultimately, we can all appreciate the crucial role that medical professionals will play in managing the coronavirus pandemic. However, Pope illustrates that, even in times of crisis, clinicians must always strive to follow the relevant guidance and that serious ramifications might occur when this is not the case. The wise choice is perhaps for NICE guidelines to be put up on hospital notice boards or, better still, emailed to all those concerned to remind clinicians under pressure of the correct approach to adopt when seeing vulnerable patients with or without the coronavirus."
 

DustyBin

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Quite. But it doesn't make them practicable or workable or right either. If one did have the responsibility, maybe those views and opinions would be different.

I think what underpins many of the views on here (and elsewhere) is that there are politicians and experts who don't agree with what the government is doing. These are qualified people and yet their concerns and ideas are seemingly dismissed out of hand. The government appear to be being led by a very small and very narrow group of advisors. There was an interesting piece on Sky News earlier talking about the Cheif Economic Advisor's role within SAGE, and questioning why their findings have never been published. One possibility is that they simply weren't involved, which seems unlikely, another is that their projections are too scary to publish....
 
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