• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Our total reliance on a vaccine and putting life on hold until it's rolled out

Status
Not open for further replies.

43066

Veteran Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
12,089
Location
London
It's a strange world where Donald Trump is saying something sensible!

Agree.

That admission is at least honest. Whatever we do now, Covid is going to run its course, unless or until we have a vaccine. All the measures being taken now are doing is ruining lives and pushing up deaths from other causes, no doubt for years to come.

It’s the same story all over the world - Germany is about to “lose control” again, and even China has further cases, despite imposing unbelievably stringent measures that would never be acceptable in any liberal western country.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,744
The way I see it is that COVID-19 is just going to become part of the repertoire of what we call 'common colds' and will become endemic, with or without a vaccine. The sooner our leaders accept this, the better it will be for everyone.

I would much rather all this research resource went into improving vaccines for TB (especially in this modern age of MDR TB), continuing the development HIV vaccines, and furthering vaccine development of the ever growing plethora and severity of neglected tropical diseases, such as dengue.
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,960
Location
Ely
Anyone who still thinks this is a good idea should read this from the excellent Malcolm Kendrick. Some highlights:

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/10/10/a-sars-cov2-vaccine-dont-hold-your-breath/
You may be interested in the start and end date of this AZ trial {ie. the phase III trial for the 'front-runner' 'Oxford' vaccine}:
Estimated Study Start Date: August 17, 2020
Estimated Primary Completion Date*: December 2, 2020
Estimated Study Completion Date: October 5, 2022

*date when all volunteers have been recruited onto the trial.

As you can see, even if all goes to plan, their study will not be completed until two years from now. Then they will have to analyse the data and suchlike, which will take a couple of months, even as a rush job. Which means they are unlikely to have everything sorted before early 2023.

...

“These [vaccine] protocols do not emphasize the most important ramifications of COVID-19 that people are most interested in preventing: overall infection, hospitalization, and death.”

[The COVID-19 vaccine trials are only looking to see if these vaccines reduce symptoms that may be as mild as cough and headache. They are NOT requiring that the vaccines reduce the risk of infection, hospitalization or death.]

...

I hope you can now see my scepticism earlier this year, when people were claiming a vaccine could be made available six months after the start of the outbreak. I was aware – as is everyone else who knows how clinical trials are done – that this simply cannot be done. Or to be more accurate, the only way to do it is by cutting some essentially corners. The corners called ‘safety’, and ‘efficacy’.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,350
Well it is not necessary to wait for the end point to do statistical analysis.
Thanks to the magic of computers you can do such analysis at any intermediate point in the study you like
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,960
Location
Ely
Well it is not necessary to wait for the end point to do statistical analysis.
Thanks to the magic of computers you can do such analysis at any intermediate point in the study you like

True, there's not much need for a delay after the study ends. That's still two years away however.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,244
Location
UK
True, there's not much need for a delay after the study ends. That's still two years away however.
Indeed, the study of long term side effects, by definition, can't be rushed.
 

plugwash

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
1,995
The question then becomes are the benefits of rolling out a vaccine early to at least some portion of the populace worth the risks of rolling a vaccine out before the long term effects can be fully studied.
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,960
Location
Ely
The question then becomes are the benefits of rolling out a vaccine early to at least some portion of the populace worth the risks of rolling a vaccine out before the long term effects can be fully studied.

Depends if it is truly voluntary or not.

If there is any degree of coercion whatsoever than that is utterly unacceptable. I'm somewhat concerned at the reports of potentially rolling out a vaccine for NHS staff by Christmas, for example. How voluntary would that be for them?
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,744
Depends if it is truly voluntary or not.

If there is any degree of coercion whatsoever than that is utterly unacceptable. I'm somewhat concerned at the reports of potentially rolling out a vaccine for NHS staff by Christmas, for example. How voluntary would that be for them?

I do worry they might get round it in the general population by saying something like "You can't travel abroad unless you've had the vaccine" - which is a nice loophole to get around the forced vaccination issue, as travel is voluntary and vaccine requirements are already standard practice. Personally I want my travel freedoms back, but I'm not sure if I want a rushed vaccine if this becomes the case...

For NHS staff, if its in their contract that they need to have reccomended vaccinations to remain in their work, then I guess that will also be a form of coercion. Does anybody know if these kind of employment clauses exist for such staff?
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,960
Location
Ely
For NHS staff, if its in their contract that they need to have reccomended vaccinations to remain in their work, then I guess that will also be a form of coercion. Does anybody know if these kind of employment clauses exist for such staff?

I'm not sure, but either way I think we need to distinguish between established tried-and-tested vaccines, and the total rushjob we'd be talking about here. I can't see how it can be considered ethical *in any way whatsoever* to force someone to undergo what would be experimental medical treatment in order to perform a job.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,744
I'm not sure, but either way I think we need to distinguish between established tried-and-tested vaccines, and the total rushjob we'd be talking about here. I can't see how it can be considered ethical *in any way whatsoever* to force someone to undergo what would be experimental medical treatment in order to perform a job.

Me too - but then again we would have thought a year ago that the effective house arrests of a whole population on unproven scientific grounds would also be fairly unethical. I just don't trust the right decisions to be made anymore. Hopefully the robust ethics protocols around vaccine research should be enough to stop this happening though.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,927
Location
First Class
Usual disclaimer (i.e. I’m not an anti-vaxxer) but I was directed to this on another forum by somebody who says they know one of the people affected:


The BMJ questions transparency of information surrounding safety of Pandemrix “swine flu” vaccine
  • A series of internal GlaxoSmithKline reports suggest possibility that serious safety signal had emerged for Pandemrix during 2009 H1N1 vaccine campaigns
  • Data indicated large discrepancies in rate of adverse event reporting for Pandemrix as compared to other GSK pandemic influenza vaccines
  • Manufacturer and some public health bodies received reports but did not make them public
  • Why did questions around the vaccine’s safety not emerge earlier?
  • Is the vaccine safety monitoring system fit for purpose?

Unfortunately the full paper is paywalled but I’m sure you’ll get the gist of it. I think I’ll avoid being vaccinated, for a year or two at least as this kind of thing makes me nervous, despite all of the reassurances that vaccine approval is all but fail-proof.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
6,188
I think that's already happened, and is a large part of why people aren't complying with the latest measures. In March people hoped we'd have lockdown, flatten the curve, open the Nightingale hospitals, buy ventilators and then things would improve, what happened to that? Normality by November? Vaccine by September some claimed, now "within weeks" or before Christmas or whatever, no doubt soon to be pushed back again. Does anyone expect the circuit break/firebreak lockdowns to end after two weeks?
By observing the number of cars on the roads, it's clear that the Welsh lockdown is not as effective as the first one back in March. Admittedly there are more places open, e.g. McDonalds where there are numerous cars parked on the pavement or on double yellows outside. No wonder public health is so poor when people cannot be bothered to park legally in the car park provided by McDonalds and walk 50 metres to the door.
 

Richard Scott

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Railtours & Preservation
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
4,583
So the first knight in shining armour was the lockdown, then masks, now they're pinning their hopes on a vaccine. What then? None of this is very scientific, just oh that didn't work, what about this idea? If you taught science like that you'd be out of a job pretty quickly.
 

joncombe

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2016
Messages
869
It is very dangerous though, if for whatever reason it doesn't come through, you poison the well.
I think that ship has long since sailed. Pretty much everytime Boris has done a press conference he has promised normality, or close to it, is a few weeks away. Or that the lockdown will only last a few weeks etc. Yet his statements always turn out to be false. I think that is why compliance is dwindling because it feels like we are being told to accept restrictions with the carrot dangled. But the carrot always turns out to be lies. Similarly we see senior figures in the Government and MPs ignoring the restrictions with seemingly no consequence which is surely going to make people less willing to comply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think this echoes what many have said on here that the virus cannot be controlled.

Yes I think that's the case. There was a report a few weeks ago that just over 80% of people that test positive have no symptoms at the time of the test and around 75% of cases are asymptomatic, so they never develop symptoms. That is just out of the people that got tested.

So given that this means the majority of people that get Covid 19 not don't feel ill or get any symptoms at all. So unless they are aware they have been in contact with someone that has it, they are unlikely to "self isolate" or even request a test. So they will spread it, unknowingly.

So how can you control something that is highly infectious but most people don't even know they have? It would not be acceptable to keep people locked away at home for long periods.
 
Last edited:

initiation

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2014
Messages
432
A great mini-speech here from Lord Sumption examining some of the issues (this is in addition to his lecture shared last week). The last two paragraphs are damning - the Government are deliberately avoiding parliamentary scrutiny.
I never realised the usage of the Public Health vs Civil Contingencies Act. This is an extremly damaging time for a constitution like ours which is not formalised.


I am not a scientist. But I firmly believe that every citizen has a right and duty to understand the science. I also consider that when scientists differ, as they do on Covid-19, a sceptical lay public comes into its own.
Across Europe, governments have adopted a variety of different policies, but the ones which have retained the confidence of their people have been those who treated them as adults, set out an intelligible plan from the outset, explained it in moderate terms and stuck to it. Our government’s record on all of these points has been poor. We need rational thought, and not panic flight from uncomfortable facts. We need a sense of proportion, and an ability to learn from our experience of a problem which has been with humanity for as long as humanity has existed. Above all, we need strategic thought which looks to the long term, and not just a series of expedients in response to the latest pressures. The government’s biggest failure of communication has been the lack of an exit plan. We cannot just go on running away from a virus when the reality is that it cannot be suppressed and we are going to have to live with it. The government must either accept that reality and explain how we are going to manage it long term, or give us an exit plan. To date, it has done neither.
The closest historical parallel for Covid 19 is Spanish flu, which spread across Europe and North America between 1918 and 1921. Spanish flu was less infectious than Covid-19 but a good deal more mortal. However, the major difference between the two epidemics was that Spanish flu mainly attacked fit and healthy people in their 20s and 30s, whereas Covid-19 mainly attacks the old and people with serious underlying clinical conditions. A rational government would make use of this fact, which ought to make Covid-19 much easier to deal with.
The average age at which people die with Covid-19 is 82.4, which is close to the average age at which people die of anything else. The risk of death for people under 65 is tiny. As the charts produced by Professor Whitty at Saturday’s Downing Street press conference show, it is not the young who are filling NHS beds. It is overwhelmingly those aged over 65. A rational policy would protect the old and vulnerable, not the young and relatively invulnerable.
It is no answer to that to say that if infection spreads through the under 65s, they may transmit it to the over 65s. That can be limited, first, by the proper management of care homes and, secondly, by the old and vulnerable isolating themselves if they wish to. They will be no worse off than they are going to be under a compulsory lockdown. Some of them would no doubt prefer to take the risk and enjoy their remaining years. If so, that is a choice which they are morally entitled to make. They should not be deprived of the choice by ministers in Whitehall.
What is clear is that these are the people that we should be protecting from infection. Yet ministers insist on treating the entire population as an undifferentiated mass. No justification has ever been advanced for this irrational and, to my mind, immoral, policy.
The justification now advanced for the latest lockdown is substantially the same as for the first, namely to save the NHS from being overwhelmed. I regret to say that there is a serious question of trust here. After six months of relentless propaganda of this kind, I do not believe them. If the NHS is really threatened, then there are serious questions to be asked about what the government has been doing since April to build up NHS capacity, given that it was told at the outset that when it lifted the lockdown the disease would return, possibly stronger. The government has declined to disclose the studies behind their predictions, but on the face of it some of them are absurd. The prediction of up to 4,000 deaths a day is the kind of thing that brings government communications into disrepute. No country has hit such a rate. 4,000 deaths per day is three times higher than peak death tolls in India whose lockdown policies have collapsed and which has a population 20 times the size of ours. According to the July document from SAGE leaked to The Spectator, SAGE is working on a case fatality rate of 0.7%. So 4,000 deaths per day equates to about 4 million new cases per week. These are Noddyland numbers. They are designed to frighten, not to inform.
During the first lockdown, the peak of hospitalisations was on 11 April, when Covid patients were receiving top priority in the allocation of NHS acute beds but only 42% of them were occupied by patients. Since then the Nightingale hospitals have become available and we are told by the Prime Minister that there are 13,000 additional nurses. Moreover, the pattern of infections has changed. The rise in infections is being driven younger people, who are not going to become seriously ill, let alone die and are unlikely to need hospital treatment. The government is relying on statistical models which have a consistent record of exaggeration and are based on arbitrary and unexplained “worst case” assumptions.
But there is a more fundamental problem about the use that is being made of these models, which has been pointed out in their reports by the modellers themselves. Modelling provides a conceptual framework for decision-making. Models are not evidence and they are not forecasts. If you want to take away people’s right to make their own decisions about their health in the light of their own circumstances, you need convincing evidence, and you need to share it.
The cost of this approach is extremely high. I am not just talking about the financial cost, although that is vast, and seems likely to hang like a financial ball and chain round our public finances for many years. I am talking mainly about the social cost. The victims of lockdowns are the poor, the badly housed and the precariously employed. They are children living in penury and insecurity. They are couples falling apart amid the pressures of confinement and the threat of violence. They are people
struggling with loneliness and mental illness. There are millions of them. My GP tells me that she saw more cases of self-harm among adolescents in the last 6 weeks of the lockdown than in the whole of 2018 and 2019 put together. She has had to prescribe more antidepressants to people in their 20s than ever before. One of her patients, who lived in a upper floor flat without a garden, was moved on three times by the police when she tried to sit in the sun outside her front door. She was 87 years old. Measures like these kill. Poverty kills. Depression kills Loneliness kills. Insecurity kills. And when they do not kill, they maim. The consequences will be felt for years.
Above all, lockdowns inflict an appalling injustice on the younger generation, people entering the job market whose prospects are being snuffed out. The spectacle of bright engineering graduates and talented musicians, forced to abandon their skills to stack shelves at supermarkets is a savage indictment of current policies.
Trying to hide from the Covid virus involves suppressing some basic features of our humanity: our sociability, our need for cooperative work, and our emotional dependence on interchange with other humans. These things are not some kind of optional extra which we can learn to do without, like drinking alcohol in Lent or doing without sugar in your tea. The whole of our world is built on human sociability. It is what distinguishes life from mere existence.
There are good reasons to believe that our continent will have to face further threats at least as serious as Covid-19 more often in future. Europe and North America have had it easy for the last 70 years, because they have not been hit by the epidemics which have been an accepted feature of live in other parts of the world. We have to devise an approach to epidemic diseases which works time and again. We cannot keep running away, or defy the forces of nature indefinitely. We cannot suspend the ordinary currents of human life every time it happens. We have to learn to live with as our ancestors have done for many centuries. In his press conference, the Prime Minister said that we have to be “humble in the face of nature”. I see no sign of that humility in the policies that he then proceeded to outline.
I should like to turn to a second major issue for you as Parliamentarians, namely the role of Parliament itself. I think that this is a critical moment in Parliament’s history. Representative institutions have lost public respect in much of the world over the past 30 years, and especially in this country. The successive surveys of political engagement by the Hansard Society paint a consistent and dismal picture. In April 2019, they published a survey suggesting that a majority of population would welcome rule by a Putinesque strongman, and most of those thought that the strongman should not be unduly troubled by such impedimenta as Parliament.
In my lecture at Cambridge last week, I sought to trace the various ways in which the government has sought to escape Parliamentary scrutiny over Covid-19. The main problem is the government’s use of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, instead of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004. The Civil Contingencies Act is the only statute which contemplates government by emergency decree of the kind that we have experienced since March. It was tailor-made for this kind of crisis. Parliament recognized the dangers of government by decree and was prepared to authorize it only on the footing that the process was subject to strict Parliamentary scrutiny. Critical features of the scheme of the Civil Contingencies Act are that if the regulations are too urgent to be submitted to Parliament for approval in advance, they will have provisional validity for 7 days, subject to Parliamentary approval within that period. Crucially, the Civil Contingencies Act provides for continuing Parliamentary supervision after the regulations have been approved. They expire after 30 days, unless renewed and reapproved. Moreover, they can be amended in either House, and may be rejected by Pt at any time, whereas Public Health Act regulations remain in force for as long as ministers choose.
I think that Parliament should refuse to approve any further regulations under Public Health Act, and say that they should be resubmitted under the Civil Contingencies Act. Whatever one’s opinion about the new lockdown, it is impossible to defend the absence of proper Parliamentary scrutiny in a Parliamentary democracy. I suspect that the appetite for rejecting regulations under either Act may be limited. But the advantage of this scheme is that ministers would have to come before the House at regular intervals with a coherent explanation, backed by evidence. What the last 6 months have shown is that decisions made in cabinet cabals, without wider deliberation or exacting Parliamentary involvement are likely to be less well through out, less coherent, and more impulsive.
I have no doubt that a desire to minimize Parliamentary scrutiny has been a deliberate policy, and not just a welcome accident. I set out my reasons for thinking that in my Cambridge lecture. What seems clear is that if Parliament cannot rise to the challenge of curbing the most determined attempt in modern times to rule by executive decree, then I seriously question whether it can claim any real constitutional relevance
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,350
Boris spreading more lies about "defeating the virus" by "spring".
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,530
Location
Taunton or Kent
With this talk of a vaccine not supporting a complete return to normality (normality as in freedom not to wear masks, not be required to socially distance, etc.), if this happens I think such a revelation will cause the masses to rebel/resent being under restrictions further, if they haven't already by the time one emerges (even if this is only early next year rather than years away). So much has been (wrongly) made of a vaccine being an exit strategy/miracle cure that, if anyone starts saying that we can't return to normal, even after it's been deployed (to a large proportion of those who need it say), this will cause outrage.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,442
With this talk of a vaccine not supporting a complete return to normality (normality as in freedom not to wear masks, not be required to socially distance, etc.), if this happens I think such a revelation will cause the masses to rebel/resent being under restrictions further, if they haven't already by the time one emerges (even if this is only early next year rather than years away). So much has been (wrongly) made of a vaccine being an exit strategy/miracle cure that, if anyone starts saying that we can't return to normal, even after it's been deployed (to a large proportion of those who need it say), this will cause outrage.

Its certainly alienated me, especially when only 30 million doses of one vaccine were ordered. I won't be eligible for one of those 30 million... That tells you how much risk Covid-19 poses to under 50s without pre existing medical conditions.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,350
Its certainly alienated me, especially when only 30 million doses of one vaccine were ordered. I won't be eligible for one of those 30 million... That tells you how much risk Covid-19 poses to under 50s without pre existing medical conditions.

Well it pretty much confirms, as expected, that long covid was a media-exaggeration designed to conceal the overwhelming age-distorted nature of the disease's casualty profile.

Just like the absurd attempts to whip up a hysteria over reinfection to justify the eternal lockdown, when there is no real evidence that reinfection will be a significant problem.

The poor and young sacrificed for the old and rich.
 
Last edited:

JonathanP

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2008
Messages
317
Location
Berlin, Germany
I don't really understand your point. It's well known the risk, both of the death, and of requiring hospital treatment to the under 50s is very low. That's why once the over 50's are vaccinated it won't matter so much how fast it spreads amongst the under 50's, and restrictions can be relaxed.

Is your proposal genuinely that in the meantime we actually sacrifice the old, in the traditional sense of the word?

I.e. we pursue a policy that we know will lead to elderly people dieing due to lack of medical resources to care for them?
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Is your proposal genuinely that in the meantime we actually sacrifice the old, in the traditional sense of the word?

As opposed to the current situation where people under 50 are being asked to make massive sacrifices of their own for no personal benefit?
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,442
I don't really understand your point. It's well known the risk, both of the death, and of requiring hospital treatment to the under 50s is very low. That's why once the over 50's are vaccinated it won't matter so much how fast it spreads amongst the under 50's, and restrictions can be relaxed.

Is your proposal genuinely that in the meantime we actually sacrifice the old, in the traditional sense of the word?

I.e. we pursue a policy that we know will lead to elderly people dieing due to lack of medical resources to care for them?

Its well known despite multiple attempts to scare younger people into compliance e.g. talking about long covid as if it is very common and through having twenty somethings on the news wearing oxygen masks struggling to breath, while pleading with viewers to treat covid as a deadly threat. The number of young and middle aged people in the UK without pre existing medical conditions who have died from covid is measured in hundreds. This year the majority of the British population is more likely to have been killed in a traffic accident than covid.

I wouldn't change things wholesale, but shielding needs to be reintroduced, to enable slightly looser restrictions on the general population. Its not reasonable (or realistic) to expect a swathe of the population to put their life on hold for months or years for a disease that is extremely unlikely to kill or seriously damage them. Multi generational households are sufficiently unusual that measures can be taken to reduce younger members interaction. Many employers who can have staff work from home are exempting workers with vulnerable household members from needing to attend an office even on a rota basis. The government seems to have taken the attitude that its unfair to expect vulnerable people to lock themselves away to a much greater extent than the general population. The brutal reality is that its their lives that are much more at risk and the longer this goes on for the less likely low risk people will be prepared to sacrifice their own lives.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
20,413
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I don't really understand your point. It's well known the risk, both of the death, and of requiring hospital treatment to the under 50s is very low. That's why once the over 50's are vaccinated it won't matter so much how fast it spreads amongst the under 50's, and restrictions can be relaxed.

Is your proposal genuinely that in the meantime we actually sacrifice the old, in the traditional sense of the word?

I.e. we pursue a policy that we know will lead to elderly people dieing due to lack of medical resources to care for them?

Except that we are being told that younger people are at risk, both of more serious illness or “long Covid”. The government can’t have it both ways. If younger people *are* at such a risk as is being made out then surely they should be just as much as a priority for vaccination?

At the moment the message to young (and middle aged) people seems to be “stuff you, you are at risk, but you aren’t worthy enough to be worth vaccinating - and by the way we’re busy completely screwing you over economically and in terms of your wellbeing so we can preserve our precious pensioner votes”. Is it any wonder many young people are just malaised to all this?...
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,350
Is your proposal genuinely that in the meantime we actually sacrifice the old, in the traditional sense of the word?

As opposed to liquidating the young and poor in vast numbers to buy them a handful more years of life?

The UK government has already spent vastly more per QALY that it normally would to buy those old people those years of life, let alone the cost in economic damage and its attendant comorbidities, and the mental and other health problems its built up.

This outbreak would already be over, hospitals would have been overloaded for a handful of weeks and we would not be looking at thousands of extra, relatively young, dead from cancer and other problems.
We are now being threatened with shutdown of hospital services for months more and civil liberties are functionally dead.

(Even the vaunted right to protest has been abolished in England)
 
Last edited:

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
At the moment the message to young (and middle aged) people seems to be “stuff you, you are at risk, but you aren’t worthy enough to be worth vaccinating - and by the way we’re busy completely screwing you over economically and in terms of your wellbeing so we can preserve our precious pensioner votes”. Is it any wonder many young people are just malaised to all this?...

I wonder whether the government has considered what proportion of the likely Covid deaths - i.e. people at or above the average life expectancy, and in many cases with other significant health issues - are likely to have died by the next election of other causes anyway?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
20,413
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I wonder whether the government has considered what proportion of the likely Covid deaths - i.e. people at or above the average life expectancy, and in many cases with other significant health issues - are likely to have died by the next election of other causes anyway?

The Excel formula probably isn’t powerful enough to work that one out! ;)
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
4,901
There may be only 30 million doses of a particular vaccine ordered, but the UK has ordered 380 million doses of various vaccines in total. Some of that will be hedging bets in case some of them don't turn out to work, but I don't think there's any suggestion that particular groups won't be vaccinated. Though given the scale of trying to vaccinate the whole population, undoubtedly some of the more vulnerable groups will be targeted to be vaccinated first.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,350
I wonder whether the government has considered what proportion of the likely Covid deaths - i.e. people at or above the average life expectancy, and in many cases with other significant health issues - are likely to have died by the next election of other causes anyway?

Well the cynic in me would suggest that is why they don't appear to care too much about care home deaths.
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,530
Location
Taunton or Kent
I hope this is the right thread for this point: one of my Facebook friends was up in arms at the sight of lockdown flouters in April and a non-partisan denouncing of all the protests in June.

Today they quoted a news article on the vaccine discovery and added the following opinion; "This isn’t a huge rollout task they only need to prioritise the weak, elderly and vulnerable and then we can all get back to our lives. I now know of many people that have had covid and none of them died. And only a small number went to hospital. Fast track Pfizer’s vaccine and stop throwing money away on furlough and bounce back schemes I don’t want to be taxed to death for the rest of my life thanks."

While this is just one opinion, it does show I think a sign that even those fully on board in the spring have now had enough and are aware of the long term costs of all this. Furthermore the news of a vaccine, regardless of how effective it actually is, will make people question why most restrictions remain in place once the most vulnerable have presumably got it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top