Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[MikeWM]

I couldn’t stand to watch the thing yesterday, and in any event I was out.

So, what is the supposed/claimed reason for this nonsense lockdown then? Because if it is ‘protect the NHS’ I don’t see how anyone can fall for that again. They’ve had many months to add capacity to the NHS.

 

[Ianigsy]

I‘m fairly sure that if you asked my 84 year old uncle whether he wanted to see his grandchildren and their partners at Christmas even if there were tiers and fines in place, he’d be prepared to pay any fine you asked just to be able to see them. He’s in the slightly unfortunate position of living with my cousin and her partner but my cousin’s children are in their early twenties and have moved out to live with their own partners, so they’d be 7 if all were together at once.

A friend who works as a pastoral year head in a secondary school is very much of the opinion that children need to be in school now - she works with sixth formers so an age group where they can easily go off the rails and are independent enough to get into serious trouble.

 

[david1212]

I find it surprising that nobody has mentioned Remembrance Sunday in regards to the new lockdown.
I wonder what the police reaction will be if people gather at memorials in town centres, as they have done in previous years.
I always stop by and pay my respects, to honour those who fought for our freedoms.
How disrespectful to their sacrifice it would be if I and others who want to do the same get arrested or hit with a huge fine?

The area local to me is Tier 1 until Thursday although last week the suggestion a move to Tier 2.
By 4 weeks ago all organised services at war memorials and parades were cancelled. The few churches that were open for socially distant services would be having indoor Remembrance Day services. Now of course these will not happen.

Unless instigated by a Chief Constable like Nick Adderley of Northamptonshire ( If you recall back in March / April he had the police trying to stop the purchase of non-essential items in supermarkets when the government had clearly stated shops that were legitimately open could sell the full range of items stocked ) all I would expect is monitoring of distancing and if significant numbers politely asking people to move on after a short time to make space for others.

If come Sunday / Monday I read or hear otherwise I will be disgusted.

 

[ainsworth74]

They’ve had many months to add capacity to the NHS.

What makes you think that, even if they had been trying to add capacity (and I don't for a second think that they were), that it would be possible to do over the course of the summer? We're short thousands of nurses and probably not a dissimilar number of doctors and we're struggling to recruit medical staff from overseas to fill the gaps from a reduced domestic supply. The NHS was approaching something a crisis with staffing before the pandemic and it ain't gonna have been fixed over the summer...

 

[DB]

What makes you think that, even if they had been trying to add capacity (and I don't for a second think that they were), that it would be possible to do over the course of the summer? We're short thousands of nurses and probably not a dissimilar number of doctors and we're struggling to recruit medical staff from overseas to fill the gaps from a reduced domestic supply. The NHS was approaching something a crisis with staffing before the pandemic and it ain't gonna have been fixed over the summer...

Granted, they couldn't resolve years of under-investment, but there are things they could have done - e.g. specific training of new student nurses in routine tasks associated with care of Covid patients, so that serveral of them could work under the supervision of an experienced nurse - or alternatively train them for work in other parts of the NHS to free up more experienced nurses.

Refresher training for retired doctors and nurses who would be prepared to work for a few months (or those now working in other careers) - they did look at identifying such people earlier in the year, but did any of them actually get called on?

I believe we have several NHS staff on here - did the government actually do anything at all to build up capacity over the summer?

 

[warwickshire]

The answer is yes

Providing you are either in a support bubble or meeting outdoors or caring for a vulnerable person.

Mode of transport doesn't make any difference.

Just a question of interest here.
No matter what mode of transport we travel (ie car or train), can we still get stopped by the law etc? For instance "Why are you travelling?" Like they did before to people? Can they get the names and addresses of who you are visiting and check it out? And isn't that against all privacy rights as we are obeying the above laws?
Any information or advice is appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Tin Rocket]

What happens if hospital capacity is reached by December and no beds are available??
Will there be a national announcement telling us to stay at home and ambulances will not be attending?
Will the Army be mobilised to guard hospitals and health facilities?

 

[Class 33]

I couldn’t stand to watch the thing yesterday, and in any event I was out.

So, what is the supposed/claimed reason for this nonsense lockdown then? Because if it is ‘protect the NHS’ I don’t see how anyone can fall for that again. They’ve had many months to add capacity to the NHS.

I watched it. But when Johnson mentioned those dreaded "You must stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives" words again, I was shouting at the screen. Some 7 months after this started, we're practically back to square one again with this blasted and very wreckless lockdown. Absolutely unbelievable. As I said get ready for all these "Stay at home. Protect the NHS. Save Lives." adverts airing absolutely countless times on the TV and radio all over again!

 

[trainophile]

I watched it. But when Johnson mentioned those dreaded "You must stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives" words again, I was shouting at the screen. Some 7 months after this started, we're practically back to square one again with this blasted and very wreckless lockdown. Absolutely unbelievable. As I said get ready for all these "Stay at home. Protect the NHS. Save Lives." adverts airing absolutely countless times on the TV and radio all over again!

I wonder if we will get daily briefings again. I won't hold my breath (sorry, bad choice of expression!).

 

[DB]

I wonder if we will get daily briefings again. I won't hold my breath (sorry, bad choice of expression!).

I hope not - we really don't need a daily dose of drivel and propaganda.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have some work colleagues who love to play golf, which is a great sport to socially distance but yet they're closing the fairways again.

Also an outdoor sport which is very low risk of transmission proven.

 

[DB]

Also an outdoor sport which is very low risk of transmission proven.

By its nature, it's very easy for participants to keep more than 2m apart. Banning it seems completely pointless and will just cause more anti-government sentiment.

 

[AM9]

The biggest thing I'll miss during this lockdown will be swimming. I made so much progress during the "calm before the storm" only for it to be taken away so quickly.

I agree. Of course all the slots until the end of Wednesday are now fully booked. Of all the healthy exercises, swimming is virtually the only one that almost everyone can't do without the proper facility. Add to that the very low risk of transmission in a pool, it does seem a bit wasteful.

 

[35B]

Surely as a layman you can at least read into it that more testing = more cases?

What I would rather see is cases not being used at all. Whether that use is for the layman to try and determine the current or future state that we are in or the inevitable media frenzy in using large case figures to whip up fear.

There could be 25,000 cases identified tomorrow but only 0.5% of those end up being hospitalised. On Tuesday there could be 18,000 cases but 2.2% of those end up being hospitalised. I cannot really see how anything can be reliably read into them to help predict a future trend other than making a wild guess, that's exactly what they seem to be doing.

And this is before we can dissect what should be determined a 'case' or not!

As a layman, I agree that more measurements taken will equate to a greater proportion of positive results, assuming that testing coverage is incomplete.

I don’t accept the extension of that argument that counting cases is a bad thing. The statistics are very incomplete at present, and we should welcome greater precision in those figures.

We would probably agree, however, that the conclusions to be drawn from current statistics are necessarily tentative, and a simple comparison of today against, say, 6 months ago will not be meaningful. I suspect we would then disagree on whether they should then be used to try to set policy - my view being that prediction is better than waiting to be surprised.

 

[DB]

a simple comparison of today against, say, 6 months ago will not be meaningful.

Quite - but those comparisons are being made, and are driving a lot of the hysteria.

 

[35B]

I honestly think that making these numbers available to the public is not helping. People start to cling on to every day's report to either justify "we should lock down harder" or whatever else their viewpoint is with little understanding of all the nuances. Similarly, the media reporting everyday "x,000 more cases and y00 deaths" every day drives an agenda that this is some super dangerous disease that we must eradicate at all costs - not intentionally but we don't see daily reports of any other medical issues, so the fact that this one does get so much attention means that it's got to be far more serious, right? Honestly if we could just remove all the data from the public's eye overnight it'd make the situation far better, but obviously we can't do that now

I think that would change the debate, and add fuel to the fire of those arguing conspiracy.

A greater willingness on the part of non-experts (and I include pretty well everyone on here in that category) to acknowledge how little we understand, how partial our knowledge is, and how much we have to learn from others, would go a long way.

 

[Darandio]

I don’t accept the extension of that argument that counting cases is a bad thing. The statistics are very incomplete at present, and we should welcome greater precision in those figures.

Counting cases isn't a bad thing. Publishing them isn't helping.

 

[35B]

Quite - but those comparisons are being made, and are driving a lot of the hysteria.

That the numbers are being misused doesn’t invalidate the testing or counting.

 

[Mugby]

I saw a huge poster yesterday which said 'IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SYMPTOMS, PLEASE DON'T ASK FOR A TEST'

But what about the people who have the virus without any symptoms and without feeling ill? The number could be millions. Does the Government prefer to turn a blind eye to this fact? If it's about saving capacity for those who become symptomatic, how does that square with the testing stations which have been seen to be standing idle for long periods of each day?

 

[Llanigraham]

I couldn’t stand to watch the thing yesterday, and in any event I was out.

So, what is the supposed/claimed reason for this nonsense lockdown then? Because if it is ‘protect the NHS’ I don’t see how anyone can fall for that again. They’ve had many months to add capacity to the NHS.

It takes more than a few months to train a Doctor or nurse!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Ironically by gathering and risking prolonging/spreading Covid, you are most likely to be putting at risk people old enough to have been in active service in WW2.

The most respectful thing to do would be to not gather, for this year only.

Easy to say but my grandmother may not be alive this time next year...

 

[Tin Rocket]

I saw a huge poster yesterday which said 'IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SYMPTOMS, PLEASE DON'T ASK FOR A TEST'

But what about the people who have the virus without any symptoms and without feeling ill? The number could be millions. Does the Government prefer to turn a blind eye to this fact? If it's about saving capacity for those who become symptomatic, how does that square with the testing stations which have been seen to be standing idle for long periods of each day?

I dont fancy a 40 mile round trip every day if I haven't got any symptoms thanks.

 

[farleigh]

Ironically by gathering and risking prolonging/spreading Covid, you are most likely to be putting at risk people old enough to have been in active service in WW2.

The most respectful thing to do would be to not gather, for this year only.

I would wager there would be a greater risk to those people by being denied the right to remember the fallen. There is more to a life than hiding away hoping to avoid catching a virus.

 

[brad465]

On Twitter the hashtag "WeWillNotComply" has been widely trending, suggesting notable resentment to this, however it's also worth pointing out that on clicking the search for it, a number of the users of it were attacking those who used it with the intent of not complying.

 

[Class 170101]

I saw a huge poster yesterday which said 'IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SYMPTOMS, PLEASE DON'T ASK FOR A TEST'

But what about the people who have the virus without any symptoms and without feeling ill? The number could be millions. Does the Government prefer to turn a blind eye to this fact? If it's about saving capacity for those who become symptomatic, how does that square with the testing stations which have been seen to be standing idle for long periods of each day?

But unfortunately this is why I don't trust the figures of 21 to 23,000 positive test per day. It only includes those tested in settings like hospitals and care homes etc. Those with no symptoms clearly wouldn't go for test as they would have no reason to. The ONS quoted 100,000 cases per day I think and tests people at random.

Schools need to be open to keep children learning and amused to prevent them do other stupid things like hanging around street corners. The risks of children getting themselves into trouble are greater than the risks to teachers' health in my view.

 

[bramling]

I watched it. But when Johnson mentioned those dreaded "You must stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives" words again, I was shouting at the screen. Some 7 months after this started, we're practically back to square one again with this blasted and very wreckless lockdown. Absolutely unbelievable. As I said get ready for all these "Stay at home. Protect the NHS. Save Lives." adverts airing absolutely countless times on the TV and radio all over again!

The body language on yesterday’s performance was interesting. All three of them came over as nervous and flustered.

 

[35B]

On Twitter the hashtag "WeWillNotComply" has been widely trending, suggesting notable resentment to this, however it's also worth pointing out that on clicking the search for it, a number of the users of it were attacking those who used it with the intent of not complying.

The question is also how much that hashtag is getting traction in the real world. Retweets etc mean little in themselves, just as the existence of a particular consensus on this forum means little in itself.

 

[Ianno87]

I would wager there would be a greater risk to those people by being denied the right to remember the fallen. There is more to a life than hiding away hoping to avoid catching a virus.

So let those people go and remember. Keep memorials, cenotaphs free for those who most benefit from it.

Everyone else can 'show their respects' by making this possible and staying away.

 

[MikeWM]

What makes you think that, even if they had been trying to add capacity (and I don't for a second think that they were), that it would be possible to do over the course of the summer?

There was a retired doctor on twitter (sorry, can’t find it now) who stated 30,000 retired doctors had been restated to the register back at the start of all this - none had been used in the first lockdown.

I think 7 months would have been more than enough to have part-trained a lot of nurses, even if only in treating/managing covid. If there was sufficient financial incentive - and why not, we’re throwing enough money around - there would have been been no shortage of volunteers.

Instead we seem to have done precisely nothing.

 

[yorkie]

On Twitter the hashtag "WeWillNotComply" has been widely trending, suggesting notable resentment to this, however it's also worth pointing out that on clicking the search for it, a number of the users of it were attacking those who used it with the intent of not complying.

Likewise with the ridiculous #CloseSchoolsNow trending; it's a mixture of absolute idiots wanting to shut schools, and people rightly opposing it.

Neither side is going to back down. Society is as divided as it's ever been. However the tide is very much turning and more and more people are seeing sense.

I feel so angry at what's happening; if people want to fall out with me over this issue, they're not worth bothering about. I'm absolutely fuming.