Could stations in Manchester receive a better service?

[Purple Orange]

By the standards of some German cities (smaller ones, usually) Castlefield is sort of an S-Bahn, not all of them are Merseyrail like segregated systems. But I do agree, Manchester is more than justifying of a proper underground, and I wonder if it might get one at some point in the form of a Den Haag style tram tunnel.

Yes an adaptation of an underground tram tunnel is what is most likely, but this is where tram-trains come in to the mix. Yes, I know some people on this forum hate the idea of anything other than heavy rail, but local heavy rail has been failing Greater Manchester for decades, while Metrolink has been a much greater success. The proposal for a Piccadilly-Cornbrook tunnel (with I assume at least two intermediate stations) is what will facilitate this. In fact it might be more train-like than tram-like, if services are confined to Altrincham & Warrington services from the west and onwards to Glossop & Marple in the east.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fact it might be more train-like than tram-like, if services are confined to Altrincham & Warrington services from the west and onwards to Glossop & Marple in the east.

This would I guess make it more U-Bahn-like still. U-Bahnen are light rail - the "textbook" UK example of one is the Newcastle Metro.

 

[Purple Orange]

This would I guess make it more U-Bahn-like still. U-Bahnen are light rail - the "textbook" UK example of one is the Newcastle Metro.

I’d be very happy with a Tyne & Wear metro type operation - it’s a great system to use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d be very happy with a Tyne & Wear metro type operation - it’s a great system to use.

I think in essence if you put a couple of "traditional" Metrolink branches underground (e.g. between Bury and Altrincham, or indeed pair up some existing currently non-converted lines like the Atherton Line plus Rose Hill or Hadfield) that's basically what you'd get.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think in essence if you put a couple of "traditional" Metrolink branches underground (e.g. between Bury and Altrincham, or indeed pair up some existing currently non-converted lines like the Atherton Line plus Rose Hill or Hadfield) that's basically what you'd get.

The ‘biggy’ would be a line down Oxford Road (I suppose connecting to Salford Crescent and/or the Bury line), which could resurface in Fallowfield to join the Styal Line. Alas I am dragging the conversation in to crayon territory.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ‘biggy’ would be a line down Oxford Road (I suppose connecting to Salford Crescent and/or the Bury line), which could resurface in Fallowfield to join the Styal Line. Alas I am dragging the conversation in to crayon territory.

If Manchester was in Germany there would absolutely be an U-Bahn running down Oxford/Wilmslow Road at least as far as Parrs Wood. It's without doubt the busiest transport corridor in the whole city.

 

[Purple Orange]

If Manchester was in Germany there would absolutely be an U-Bahn running down Oxford/Wilmslow Road at least as far as Parrs Wood. It's without doubt the busiest transport corridor in the whole city.

If that had happened it would be worth connecting it up to the Cheadle-Wilmslow area and ironically there would be less need for HS2 to be constructed all the way to Piccadilly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that had happened it would be worth connecting it up to the Cheadle-Wilmslow area and ironically there would be less need for HS2 to be constructed all the way to Piccadilly.

I don't think that would then be an U-Bahn; they don't run long distances out of cities.

 

[Purple Orange]

I don't think that would then be an U-Bahn; they don't run long distances out of cities.

Perhaps not, but as a market for Manchester that area is a key one. Point to point it’s roughly 10 miles and I suppose long term the stations in this area could form part of a metro network that operates through Oxford Road (once long distance traffic has been removed).

 

[peters]

Yes an adaptation of an underground tram tunnel is what is most likely

It would need to a fairly straight section underground, sharp bends and underground trams don't mix, as anyone who has caught a 'streetcar' from the underground bit of Toronto Union station will tell you.

 

[Jack Hay]

Or alternatively, extend the present Southport - Hunts Cross Merseyrail to Warrington Central calling all stations every 15 minutes, and having an electric Warrington Central - Oxford Road (or Airport when Oxford Road is finally rebuilt) calling all stations every 30 minutes to start with.

The Regional Express towards Sheffield and onwards would be switched to run via the Earlestofwn route, however this would sever the long standing regional connection between Warrington and Stockport/Sheffield.

I don't think you understand the CLC route. The journey time betwen Warrington and Manchester on the fastest trains is less than 20 minutes. An all-stations train, even electric, cannot come close to this. This is such a quick service that it is extremely well-used even though premium fares are charged. (Look them up; Warrington to Manchester costs more than Warrington to Liverpool, even though Warrington to Manchester is shorter.) The CLC has the express service because the demand is there and people are willing to pay for it. It has had an express service continuously since 1880 and it is very well-used. The railway needs that income and it is economic madness to throw away those expresses for an all-stations service.

 

[HSTEd]

If you were to build some sort of underground railway in the Oxford Road corridor (perhaps using the AnsaldoBreda/Hitachi Rail Italy system used in Copenhagen), then the obvious thing to do is convert the Walkden line.
It is not needed for long distance services and the local service is a joke.

(The station boxes in Copenhagen are rather compact which fits nicely into available open spaces on the corridor)

 

[Purple Orange]

It would need to a fairly straight section underground, sharp bends and underground trams don't mix, as anyone who has caught a 'streetcar' from the underground bit of Toronto Union station will tell you.

How short is a streetcar compared to what is likely to be a unit similar to a double length tram?

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I don't think you understand the CLC route. The journey time betwen Warrington and Manchester on the fastest trains is less than 20 minutes. An all-stations train, even electric, cannot come close to this. This is such a quick service that it is extremely well-used even though premium fares are charged. (Look them up; Warrington to Manchester costs more than Warrington to Liverpool, even though Warrington to Manchester is shorter.) The CLC has the express service because the demand is there and people are willing to pay for it. It has had an express service continuously since 1880 and it is very well-used. The railway needs that income and it is economic madness to throw away those expresses for an all-stations service.

But by the time tram-train conversion comes along, Warrington would be served by fast NPR trains, making the issue redundant.

 

[Jack Hay]

There is no need to extend HS2 north of Minshull Vernon; it would be a white elephant. North of Crewe, the main lines divide in 4 directions and no single route will carry enough traffic to justify the enormous expense of a high speed line. In any case, Manchester is not sufficiently big or economically important enough to justify any railway tunnelling; it is not London or New York. As for NPR, shaving 10 minutes off journeys from Manchester to Leeds/Liverpool will not increase rail's modal share markedly, given that most actual journeys are not city centre to city centre. The current Lime Street-Victoria service is fairly good, and could be accelerated by using electric traction and cutting out the intermediate stop. Electrification of the existing Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-York line and smoothing out certain sections, as intended near Mirfield, should be sufficient for this route, and is all that is really affordable. One needs to remember that the UK is becoming an economic basket case with enormous debts, heading in the same direction as Argentina.

The way forward for Manchester's suburban routes is conversion of non-electrified lines to Metrolink, or electrification using 25kV where Metrolink conversion is not feasible/desirable, and reserving the Oldfield curve and Castlefleld corridor for Northern Rail local/regional services only.

Daodao is correct about HS2 and NPR. The railway tunnelling that's referred to, and cannot be justfiied, is the 8 miles of high speed tunnel from the airport to the city on HS2. This is not about the possibility of city centre underground metros. In fact the idea that NPR can cut even 10 minutes off today's existing 32 minute Manchester-Liverpool journey time (achieved by some Lime Street-Victoria non-stops) is nonsense. With every train calling at the airport stop, and most likely Warrington too, NPR will struggle to achieve 25 min between Manchester and Liverpool.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2020 ==

How short is a streetcar compared to what is likely to be a unit similar to a double length tram?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2020 ==



But by the time tram-train conversion comes along, Warrington would be served by fast NPR trains, making the issue redundant.

No, Greater Manchester want to grab the CLC as soon as possible without waiting for NPR which is unlikely to happen (as no route has been found for it).

 

[Purple Orange]

Daodao is correct about HS2 and NPR. The railway tunnelling that's referred to, and cannot be justfiied, is the 8 miles of high speed tunnel from the airport to the city on HS2. This is not about the possibility of city centre underground metros. In fact the idea that NPR can cut even 10 minutes off today's existing 32 minute Manchester-Liverpool journey time (achieved by some Lime Street-Victoria non-stops) is nonsense. With every train calling at the airport stop, and most likely Warrington too, NPR will struggle to achieve 25 min between Manchester and Liverpool.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2020 ==


No, Greater Manchester want to grab the CLC as soon as possible without waiting for NPR which is unlikely to happen (as no route has been found for it).

NPR and HS2 is all about creating capacity in central Manchester, taking away the long distance services from the existing lines. It’s not purely about speed. We can start seeing more frequent commuter services, just as we will on the south WCML. The NPR route from Manchester to the airport is timed at 7 minutes, meaning the remaining 30 miles would need to average 90 mph (partially on HS2 track) for the overall service to take 27 mins.

Plus it doesn’t take a lot of searching to see possible NPR routes to Liverpool.

 

[peters]

How short is a streetcar compared to what is likely to be a unit similar to a double length tram?

I didn't put 'streetcar' in inverted commas without reason as on the Habourfront line they use modern articulated trams but call them streetcars. I've just checked on Wikipedia and they are from the Bombardier Flexity family and are almost identical in length and style to the new trams in Blackpool. They are slightly longer than a single Metrolink tram but divided in to more sections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think you understand the CLC route. The journey time betwen Warrington and Manchester on the fastest trains is less than 20 minutes. An all-stations train, even electric, cannot come close to this.

It can't, however what it can do is be much more frequent. The popularity of Merseyrail (and how the 15 minute frequency has stood the test of time, rather than being replaced with half-hourly fasts[1] and half-hourly slows) demonstrates that people will take frequency over speed, because if the half-hourly service doesn't suit your journey you could well end up stood around for 29 minutes. I can't see why I'd expect Metrolink to Warrington, if it happened, to run on anything other than the standard 12 minute (5tph) frequency that is used across Metrolink.

In any case, there will still be 2tph fast from Warrington Bank Quay to Manchester (the Northern and TfW services) if that's what you do want.

And yes, I do understand the CLC, having commuted on it for 3 months (3 months too long) a number of years ago, albeit in the days when it was the main fast Liverpool-Manchester service.

[1] Missing out Capenhurst doesn't count; this is purely because it reduces the number of unit diagrams required by 1, I believe.

 

[Purple Orange]

I didn't put 'streetcar' in inverted commas without reason as on the Habourfront line they use modern articulated trams but call them streetcars. I've just checked on Wikipedia and they are from the Bombardier Flexity family and are almost identical in length and style to the new trams in Blackpool. They are slightly longer than a single Metrolink tram but divided in to more sections.

Any line from Piccadilly to cornbrook is likely to go via St. Peter's Sq, which would involve a small curve. Nothing that the current network doesn't already navigate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any line from Piccadilly to cornbrook is likely to go via St. Peter's Sq, which would involve a small curve. Nothing that the current network doesn't already navigate.

The Toronto example is pretty extreme - you'd not put a bus stop on a 90 degree curve with a radius of what looks like about 5 metres, let alone a tramstop!

 

[Jack Hay]

NPR and HS2 is all about creating capacity in central Manchester, taking away the long distance services from the existing lines. It’s not purely about speed. We can start seeing more frequent commuter services, just as we will on the south WCML. The NPR route from Manchester to the airport is timed at 7 minutes, meaning the remaining 30 miles would need to average 90 mph (partially on HS2 track) for the overall service to take 27 mins.

Plus it doesn’t take a lot of searching to see possible NPR routes to Liverpool.

Your journey time estimates exclude station stops, which can add 2 minutes. Airport stops are notorious for adding longer than this. Nobody has yet identified an NPR route to Liverpool that gets closer than Ditton, the end/ start of the "Fiddler's Ferry line". I think they're struggling.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2020 ==

In any case, there will still be 2tph fast from Warrington Bank Quay to Manchester (the Northern and TfW services) if that's what you do want.

And yes, I do understand the CLC, having commuted on it for 3 months (3 months too long) a number of years ago, albeit in the days when it was the main fast Liverpool-Manchester service.

I'm afraid you don't, because you are suggesting that Bank Quay to Manchester is a fast alternative. It is not. It is a lot longer and bedevilled by junction conflicts along the way. Warrington people do not use that route to go to Manchester, for that reason. And you didn't!

 

[Purple Orange]

Your journey time estimates exclude station stops, which can add 2 minutes. Airport stops are notorious for adding longer than this. Nobody has yet identified an NPR route to Liverpool that gets closer than Ditton, the end/ start of the "Fiddler's Ferry line". I think they're struggling.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2020 ==


I'm afraid you don't, because you are suggesting that Bank Quay to Manchester is a fast alternative. It is not. It is a lot longer and bedevilled by junction conflicts along the way. Warrington people do not use that route to go to Manchester, for that reason. And you didn't!

You are correct that no specified route in to Liverpool has been identified, but we do know that one will be chosen. We can also take reasonable educated guesses ad to potential routes too. One realistic outcome is that no new line will be built in to Liverpool city centre and the NPR line from Warrington could join on to the existing WCML route in to liverpool near Widnes. I don't believe the NPR route will be slower than the current fastest time, but the win here is frequency and increased stopper frequency on the existing lines from Manchester. All round a better service for Liverpool and it gets a better HS2 service.

 

[Jack Hay]

Let's just acknowledge something else, in case other rail users in Warrington read stuff from the Metrolink lobbyists and get taken in. The journey time from Manchester to Warrington on a tram-train or tram is going to be a LOT longer than the 30 minutes mentioned up-thread. To see why, look at what happened at Altrincham. Manchester to Altrincham, before Metrolink, had an all-stations EMU service and a limited stop diesel. Fastest journey time on the diesel with one stop at Sale was 12 minutes. Journey time on the tram today, 27 minutes. Blame the very congested slow section from St Peters Square to Cornbrook/Trafford Bar. Manchester to Warrington is precisely twice as far as Altrincham (16.5 miles vs 8.25). Fastest journey time to Warrington today, 16 minutes from Oxford Road. With a tram-train or tram calling at 12 stops (St Peters Square to Warrington via Cornbrook and assuming no new stops), how can it possibly be 30 minutes when it is 27 to Altrincham and the city centre section is shared? And probably extra stops will be added if it becomes a metro. An all-stations journey time of 45 minutes looks likely and it may easily become 50. Worth giving up 4 trains an hour, two of them express, with through workings across Warrington and beyond Manchester for that? No way!

 

[Purple Orange]

Let’s also acknowledge that by the time such a metrolink service is up and running, an underground tunnel will have had to have been built in Manchester city centre AND this will be so far down the line that NPR services from Liverpool via Warrington would be established. Warrington folk will still have fast and more frequent services to Manchester and beyond. This outrage you have seems rather misplaced.

 

[Gareth]

If Manchester was in Germany there would absolutely be an U-Bahn running down Oxford/Wilmslow Road at least as far as Parrs Wood. It's without doubt the busiest transport corridor in the whole city.

Yes. Then probably run it up New Bury Rd to finish in the Prestwich area.

Liverpool could also do with a couple: along Prescot Rd and Smithdown Rd. The buses on those routes are super chocker.

Not going to happen though...

 

[Jack Hay]

'Outrage' is your word, not mine. I wish I could be as confident as you about the notion that an underground tunnel for replacement services will be built first. The history of Metrolink does not suggest this will be the case. It is actually a history of Manchester's leaders taking over existing railway lines when it suits them and ignoring what ran there before (ref. Altrincham, again). Metrolink works far better when it takes over disused routes, such as the East Didbsury line. This creates new journey possibiltiies whilst respecting those that already exist.

 

[Ianno87]

'Outrage' is your word, not mine. I wish I could be as confident as you about the notion that an underground tunnel for replacement services will be built first. The history of Metrolink does not suggest this will be the case. It is actually a history of Manchester's leaders taking over existing railway lines when it suits them and ignoring what ran there before (ref. Altrincham, again). Metrolink works far better when it takes over disused routes, such as the East Didbsury line. This creates new journey possibiltiies whilst respecting those that already exist.

Altrincham is the only example, 28 years old now, of a heavy rail conversion to light rail impacting passengers further out. One example hardly constitutes "a history".

 

[adrock1976]

Let's just acknowledge something else, in case other rail users in Warrington read stuff from the Metrolink lobbyists and get taken in. The journey time from Manchester to Warrington on a tram-train or tram is going to be a LOT longer than the 30 minutes mentioned up-thread. To see why, look at what happened at Altrincham. Manchester to Altrincham, before Metrolink, had an all-stations EMU service and a limited stop diesel. Fastest journey time on the diesel with one stop at Sale was 12 minutes. Journey time on the tram today, 27 minutes. Blame the very congested slow section from St Peters Square to Cornbrook/Trafford Bar. Manchester to Warrington is precisely twice as far as Altrincham (16.5 miles vs 8.25). Fastest journey time to Warrington today, 16 minutes from Oxford Road. With a tram-train or tram calling at 12 stops (St Peters Square to Warrington via Cornbrook and assuming no new stops), how can it possibly be 30 minutes when it is 27 to Altrincham and the city centre section is shared? And probably extra stops will be added if it becomes a metro. An all-stations journey time of 45 minutes looks likely and it may easily become 50. Worth giving up 4 trains an hour, two of them express, with through workings across Warrington and beyond Manchester for that? No way!

I've seen your gnashing of the teeth in your previous few posts, but what do you actually suggest regarding serving all of the local stations with a useful frequency if you are unhappy with what I (and Bletchleyite) have mentioned?

Also, I believe that Warrington Central in the last couple of years had lost its Regional Express (the Transpennine Liverpool - Scarborough), which leaves the present day East Midlands (formerly Regional Railways Central/Central Trains) Liverpool - Norwich. The Liverpool - Norwich can be susceptible to severe delays such as the Castlefield Apocalypse, Dore & Totley congestion if the Midland mainline is having a bad day, and units failing to couple/uncouple at Nottingham so as to provide 4 coach trains west of Nottingham. There are probably other causes of delays to this service, hence how there have been recent discussions if it can be split into shorter sections for timetable robustness.

Furthermore, somebody who is making an eastbound journey who has access to a car and happens to reside in Hunts Cross or Sankey for Penketh for example, will take a look at the present (non Covid) timetable and will see that the frequency is every 60 minutes (unsure if that is still the case for Sankey for Penketh) with the famous No Sunday Service. Likewise in the vicinity of Trafford Park or Chassen Road wanting to make a westbound journey where the frequency is every 2 hours with the famous No Sunday Service too. This would not encourage people to leave the car at home and use public transport, especially when the CLC route runs not far from the M62.

 

[Jack Hay]

All railway lines which were converted to Metrolink impacted the users of those lines in other ways, though. No bikes carried. No through ticketing to outside Greater Manchester. No railcards recognised. Poor luggage space, cramped seating... More convenient stations in the city centre is a benefit, I grant you, but it was the only one I saw (I lived in Sale). On the Altrincham line, at the time of conversion, service frequency didn't even improve!

 

[Ianno87]

All railway lines which were converted to Metrolink impacted the users of those lines in other ways, though. No bikes carried. No through ticketing to outside Greater Manchester. No railcards recognised. Poor luggage space, cramped seating... More convenient stations in the city centre is a benefit, I grant you, but it was the only one I saw (I lived in Sale). On the Altrincham line, at the time of conversion, service frequency didn't even improve!

But they all carry more passengers than the previous heavy rail service did, so something must be right.

 

[Jack Hay]

I've seen your gnashing of the teeth in your previous few posts, but what do you actually suggest regarding serving all of the local stations with a useful frequency if you are unhappy with what I (and Bletchleyite) have mentioned?

Also, I believe that Warrington Central in the last couple of years had lost its Regional Express (the Transpennine Liverpool - Scarborough), which leaves the present day East Midlands (formerly Regional Railways Central/Central Trains) Liverpool - Norwich. The Liverpool - Norwich can be susceptible to severe delays such as the Castlefield Apocalypse, Dore & Totley congestion if the Midland mainline is having a bad day, and units failing to couple/uncouple at Nottingham so as to provide 4 coach trains west of Nottingham. There are probably other causes of delays to this service, hence how there have been recent discussions if it can be split into shorter sections for timetable robustness.

Furthermore, somebody who is making an eastbound journey who has access to a car and happens to reside in Hunts Cross or Sankey for Penketh for example, will take a look at the present (non Covid) timetable and will see that the frequency is every 60 minutes (unsure if that is still the case for Sankey for Penketh) with the famous No Sunday Service. Likewise in the vicinity of Trafford Park or Chassen Road wanting to make a westbound journey where the frequency is every 2 hours with the famous No Sunday Service too. This would not encourage people to leave the car at home and use public transport, especially when the CLC route runs not far from the M62.

Thank you for reading my posts, then! I was particularly talking about Warrington Central which is much the busiest intermediate station and the one which makes a lot of money for the railway from users of the expresses. I believe generally that station service frequency should vary according to usage and so the infrequent service at Chassen Roiad (close to Urmston and Flixton) and now Sankey (close to Warrington West) is somewhat to be expected although I agree, frustrating if you live there. It really is hard to argue that Chassen Road should have the same service level as Warrington Central but Metrolink would probably not distinguish between them! You are right that Warrington Central has lost its Leeds/York/Scarborough service and as a user of that service I regret that and I can tell you it was well-used with Warrington passengers going to Huddersfield/Leeds in particular. The so-called replacement from Bank Quay to Leeds via Bradford is too slow to be useful I wish more people in Warrington have noticed this and the other threats to their rail service. I'll not mention HS2 here... oh...oops!