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can public transport ever recover from COVID-19

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Bletchleyite

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Assuming the peak extras are already gone, the obvious short term saving is to axe everything but the stoppers.

On which route, sorry?

If you mean the south WCML then the ultimate downgrade is to go to the old Sunday timetable (aka the pre-MK timetable, I think) which is 2tph off Euston, one all stations, one omitting Apsley, Kings Langley and Cheddington. But I don't think demand has fallen to quite that extent.
 
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Ianno87

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Unfortunatley that timetable doesn’t exist. Of more precisely the resource plan behind it doesn’t exist. It existed on previous versions of the timetable, but because the timetable and resources planners have been flat out doing emergency timetables for nearly 8 months, they haven’t done any contingency resource plans.

Of course something is possible at short notice, but the cash savings will be minimal.

The comtingency timetable basically works during disruption as you've still got the full pool of trains and crew sloshing around to resource it ad-hoc. Probably not very efficient, but keeps a service going when some infrastructure capability is lost.
 

bramling

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Or more likely they'll have enough capacity to run 4 car sets all the time (maybe with a couple of peak extras), and they'll be able to save the money on changing the signalling at Southport to allow 8-car sets?

And then find five years down the line that there’s gross overcrowding, with the 507s that would have been temporarily retained having been scrapped.

The danger with reducing the capability of the infrastructure to deal with passenger numbers is that it’s then not there when numbers rise again, and ends up costing more to put it back.
 

Bletchleyite

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And then find five years down the line that there’s gross overcrowding, with the 507s that would have been temporarily retained having been scrapped.

The danger with reducing the capability of the infrastructure to deal with passenger numbers is that it’s then not there when numbers rise again, and ends up costing more to put it back.

I'm not talking about reducing it, I'm talking about not doing the work to move the signals now, but rather deferring it until it's needed. As an interim measure you could potentially operate peak extras on the Southport line; that wouldn't require any more units than they already have on order.
 

AM9

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Well that would entail scrapping servicable stock whilst passengers endure overcrowding on most lines.

If you have a route with ten trains an hour, and you have a massive loss in passenger usage and reduce the service to six an hour, I don't have a problem. However people won't take kindly to being forced to stand so that newish carriages can be scrapped.
If you have a route with ten trains per hour each carrying 300 passengers and passenger demand falls by 40%, then cutting the service to 6 trains per hour would maintain the same cost per passenger (ignoring any non-linearities on NR's track maintenance costs). That would enable fares/subsidies to remain the same, and the passengers' commute would be virtually unchanged.
 

yorksrob

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If you have a route with ten trains per hour each carrying 300 passengers and passenger demand falls by 40%, then cutting the service to 6 trains per hour would maintain the same cost per passenger (ignoring any non-linearities on NR's track maintenance costs). That would enable fares/subsidies to remain the same, and the passengers' commute would be virtually unchanged.

Indeed.

Spot on to reduce the service with ten trains an hour, rather than the rural route with one every two.
 

AM9

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Do you have a suggestion for the 700s? It will be a while before the 12 car sets are full and standing again.
Whilst the class 700s are specifically designed to meet the high density needs of the Thameslink routes and are kitted with ETCS and ATO to maximise core throughput, they have proven effective in moving large numbers on services in North Kent, the BML, and several metro lines south of the Thames. Their configuration has also effectively run a significant part of the services out of Waterloo in the form of the class 707s. So in the evdent of a surplus, there would be plenty of opportunities to transfer them to tasks where the existing stock may be approaching the end of it's life, instead of comissioning major upgrades of the 455 or forthcoming 465 programmes.
 

Railman

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The buisness case for all the franchised services is now totally caput!! and it is the "new Normal" that must be managed. Any service will require tax payer subsidy for years to come and probably for ever. the way to asses that service requirement is also totally new, and new rules/formulas are required, including enviroment issues.
As I see it the existing structure is totally incapable of doing this! The idea of competition on the tracks is dead and that of providing a usefull and "reasonable cost" service is what matters now.

For example the existing Llandudno- Manchester Tfw service is followed by a Northern connect service 10 mins later on the Manchester-Chester section, both short of passengers, is it right in the "New World" to continue such madness?? That im sure is just the tip of the iceberg, and there must be hundreds of similar overlapping services that only a "joined up" system operation could see and re-organise for the long term future of the Railway.
 

AM9

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Indeed.

Spot on to reduce the service with ten trains an hour, rather than the rural route with one every two.
As I've repeated above, I am talking about commuter lines, which in my experience can't be described as rural lines with one train per hour. If a rural service is overcommitted when demand returns to whatever normal is in the future, there will be plenty of spare units from excess provisioning on other lines to meet that demand with the appropriate capacity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The buisness case for all the franchised services is now totally caput!! and it is the "new Normal" that must be managed. Any service will require tax payer subsidy for years to come and probably for ever. the way to asses that service requirement is also totally new, and new rules/formulas are required, including enviroment issues.
As I see it the existing structure is totally incapable of doing this! The idea of competition on the tracks is dead and that of providing a usefull and "reasonable cost" service is what matters now.

For example the existing Llandudno- Manchester Tfw service is followed by a Northern connect service 10 mins later on the Manchester-Chester section, both short of passengers, is it right in the "New World" to continue such madness?? That im sure is just the tip of the iceberg, and there must be hundreds of similar overlapping services that only a "joined up" system operation could see and re-organise for the long term future of the Railway.
I agree. It seems that accepting the 'new normal' (as in when COVID-19 is no longer a major preoccupation of all), is the problem here. That 'new normal' looks like it will be a reduced demand for travel, especially in commuter traffic, (conversely, there may be an upturn in leisure traffic). The other part of this 'new normal' is that a future government (whichever party is in power) is likely to provide services that meets that demand at the minimum cost to public funds, so fulfilling wish lists of enhanced luxury travel with much more space in half-filled standard class trains is not even on the DfT's horizon.
 
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Bald Rick

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If you have a route with ten trains per hour each carrying 300 passengers and passenger demand falls by 40%, then cutting the service to 6 trains per hour would maintain the same cost per passenger (ignoring any non-linearities on NR's track maintenance costs). That would enable fares/subsidies to remain the same, and the passengers' commute would be virtually unchanged.

Only if 40% of the trains are scrapped / returned to lessors (without charge) and 40% of TOC staff taken off the payroll. That’s the harsh reality.
 

The Ham

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One thing that is worth noting is that until the end of October of TOC's were to reduce the need for staff time then the Treasury would have been funding a significant amount of their wages bill anyway through the furlough scheme. As such the extra cost of paying them to run trains which people use probably wasn't all that much more.

Whilst I agree that there's likely to be some savings by cutting services, the problem is that often they serve different places. As the faster the service the further it's likely to go.

As an example you could cut some services between Basingstoke and Waterloo because those from Basingstoke can use the Basingstoke stoppers. The problem is that they then means that you're cutting services which serve Weymouth, Southampton, Portsmouth, Salisbury, Exeter, etc.

Even if you moved those longer distance services to then run the Basingstoke stoppers (even if you could without a significant wait at Basingstoke) then that's unlikely to save you much more than energy costs.

Yes you could save some overtime, but in the greater scheme of things not a lot.

Across the network (where there's more than 4tph along any given line) there's probably a similar story for a lot of services. That's not to say that there's some duplication of services which could be streamlined a bit, however I suspect they are likely to be the exception.

However again there's two parts to this debate:
- what's happening now
- what's likely to happen once things return more to normal

What's happening now is that 35-40% of tickets are being sold compared with 2019. Yes that's a big drop, but it's likely to be sorry lived once restrictions start to be removed again. Yes it's costing a lot to run, but there's not a lot which can be done in the short term to fix this.

Longer term is much more likely that we'd get back to circa 2010 (or better) levels of use across the network fairly quickly. That's likely to hide variations across different areas.

For instance short distance travel is likely to recover quickly (the cost saving from WFH when your season ticket is £500/year isn't going to be that attractive, likewise those traveling for secondary school or college are likely to return to near normal levels fairly quicker).

Longer distance travel (the sort where you're visiting people socially rather than for work) is also likely to recover quickly. With the ability to work anywhere there's a broadband connection may actually allow people to go away more during the school holidays.

As an example a family go and visit a set of the children's grandparents, the adults WFH 2 days over the week that they are there and go for days out the rest of the time. They have a near normal 9 days away, but the parents have each only used 3 day's worth of leave. With flexible working (i.e. long days and a bit of evening working you might even be able to reduce that further).

That means that you could be away for the whole of the summer holidays and use 18 days of leave. You might, by WFH 3 days a week, manage to do that for every school holiday that there is.

However there could be some time during that time away when one or other might need to be in the office. If that's the case then chances are it's likely that is not overly practical to have two cars wherever you are (not least just the ability to park that many cars), and so coming back for that work could be done by train. Especially given that you could work on the train and so your travel time is still (mostly) counting as work rather than lost time.

A single 150 mile each way trip would be the same in miles as a week of 30 mile each way commuting (it's likely that it could be the same in revenue as well, however chances are more than just those who commute by train would do so).

Where there's likely to be losses is where there's people traveling 30+ miles into Central London, however that's likely to just mean the removal of some of the extra peak hour services required, but probably not all that many.

As whilst a fall of 60% on such lines might be entirely possible many of those services are running 110%+ full, so cut from 4tph to 3tph and reduce train lengths to 8 vs 12 and you'll cut capacity by 50%. That would result in train loadings of 88%, which would still be rather busy. As such the end of 12 coach peak hour services into London isn't something that's likely to disappear entirely, especially given that there being enough seats for all may well attract a few more people to use rail services.

However over the whole day is unlikely that a 60% fall would be maintained, and so off peak services into London would probably be maintained (maybe with some shortening of services, but probably not all that many).

However, and this is a key point which is often overlooked, if London commuting is being hit that hard there's likely to be a lot of other rail services which are little or no falls to maintain a 10-30% fall overall (which is a likely range for overall fall in rail use in the first full year post Covid-19).

Assuming that's the case, then those places with up to 2tph are likely to fairly safe from cuts in services (unless they form part of into Central London traffic, in which case they could see an increase in journey times to allow for other services to be cut).

The sorts of services which could see longer journey times could be those to Weymouth (adding a stop at Basingstoke and Woking), those to Yeovil (calling at a few more key locations between Basingstoke and Waterloo), Southampton (looking more like the off peak calling pattern for the Basingstoke stoppers from Basingstoke inwards), etc.

The longer journey time would be "offset" by many by actually being able to sit and work on the train more, as even 30 minutes of such work a week would allow an extra stop to be added each way (assuming 5 day commuting).
 

AM9

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Only if 40% of the trains are scrapped / returned to lessors (without charge) and 40% of TOC staff taken off the payroll. That’s the harsh reality.
Only if 40% of the trains are scrapped / returned to lessors (without charge) and 40% of TOC staff taken off the payroll. That’s the harsh reality.
That's true but I'm talking about a situation where a long-term reduction of patronage causes a redeployment of rolling-stock and staff, say 5 years plus. Within that there would be a moratorium of new stock procurement and reappraisal of major refurbishment schemes. It would be similar to what happened in the '70s when demand dropped in most areas. It's inconvenient that the railway has just undergone a period of wholesale fleet replacement where stock such as 350/2 360/2, 707, 185 etc., are being released before their useful life is expired because bidders fro franchises were encouraged to commit to 'new' trains to win bids. I'm sure that some of the as yet undelivered fleets might come in for a lot of criticism as being not much better than the types that they have displaced, e.g. GA's 720s and WMT's 730s once the novelty of their newness wears off.
Redundant infrastructure would probably be left intact, - maybe mothballed to reduce maintenance costs, but land asset-stripping I think wouldn't be endemi this time because the advancing decarbonisation of all land travel would hopefully create some fresh demand for public transport, both road and rail.
 

The Ham

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Only if 40% of the trains are scrapped / returned to lessors (without charge) and 40% of TOC staff taken off the payroll. That’s the harsh reality.

Whilst that would be suitable for the current situation, I suspect that once restrictions are eased that such a cut in services would be excessive. Especially given how overloaded lots of train services were in 2019.
 

yorksrob

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The kay thing is that cuts aren't applied to stations that already have hourly or less frequent services.
 

Bald Rick

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The kay thing is that cuts aren't applied to stations that already have hourly or less frequent services.

Why not? No point running an expensive service for no passengers. There’s going to be some tough decisions.
 

Camden

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Only if 40% of the trains are scrapped / returned to lessors (without charge) and 40% of TOC staff taken off the payroll. That’s the harsh reality.
Furlough, would be my thinking. As for the trains, cheaper to keep them in sheds than running around the network adding to losses.

Keeping local stopping services running has to be more important than running long distance trains so frequently.
 

Bald Rick

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Furlough, would be my thinking.
How does that save the Government money?


As for the trains, cheaper to keep them in sheds than running around the network adding to losses.

But not much. That’s the point. They have to be taken off lease or scrapped to save any significant sum. And even just taking them off lease transfers the pain to the banks, who will simply bump up the cost of other fleets to compensate, and reflect the increased risk (when the time comes).
 

dk1

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Furlough, would be my thinking. As for the trains, cheaper to keep them in sheds than running around the network adding to losses.

Keeping local stopping services running has to be more important than running long distance trains so frequently.
Furlough is something that hasn't figured at all at TOCs thankfully in any grade.
 

yorksrob

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Why not? No point running an expensive service for no passengers. There’s going to be some tough decisions.

Apart from the fact that these are the services where passenger numbers have already recovered. These routes aren't dependant on the dissappeared commuter traffic of yester-year.

Unless you're saying that the axe should fall regardless of passenger usage.

I love it when the phrase "tough decisions" gets trotted out. It usually means passengers getting screwed over.
 

yorksrob

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As ever - perhaps you could get a job with Northern, work out a solution that is acceptable to you, and implement it. I wish you well in discussion with ASLEF, particularly the Liverpool and Manchester LDCs.
Methods of working have only recently been agreed between management & unions & even that is extremely slow going. Unprecedented times & unprecedented levels of training required with new fleets as well as cascading units. Add to that the new entrants to the driving grade, the 'bubbles' needed to be set up & the positive cases that keep setting things back even further. The restrictions many areas of the North are now going onto add to these woes. I think even next Summer is looking rather hit & miss for a return to normal levels on some routes.

Pardon me for daring to ask for a usable passenger service.

Dare I ask why these agreements on Northern are behind everywhere else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What, everywhere?

Certainly on the regional services in the North I use.

I must admit, I haven't travelled on what used to be NSE and IC that much since lockdown, but many of those trains have been quieter than the Hallam stopper.
 

dk1

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Pardon me for daring to ask for a usable passenger service.

Dare I ask why these agreements on Northern are behind everywhere else.
Scale of the job I think. An ex-colleague of mine was unlucky enough to have moved to & started his training in Manchester at the beginning of March. He has only recently restarted the training & has yet to enter a driving cab let alone find a suitable DI to bubble up with.
 

yorksrob

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Scale of the job I think. An ex-colleague of mine was unlucky enough to have moved to & started his training in Manchester at the beginning of March. He has only recently restarted the training & has yet to enter a driving cab let alone find a suitable DI to bubble up with.

It's a sorry state of affairs.

Personally I think that restoring an all day service on the Bentham line should take priority - even if it means thinning out some more frequent services to Leeds and Bradford.

That's my 'tough decision'.
 

dk1

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It's a sorry state of affairs.

Personally I think that restoring an all day service on the Bentham line should take priority - even if it means thinning out some more frequent services to Leeds and Bradford.

That's my 'tough decision'.
So many tough decisions :lol:
 

Bald Rick

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Dare I ask why these agreements on Northern are behind everywhere else.

1) the agreements are not behind in Northern compared to elsewhere, AIUI.

2) but if they were, you might need to ask ASLEF local reps.

3) Northern have a higher turnover of drivers than most other TOCs, presumably because they pay less than others up there. Then they must have suffered more from Covid related absence than most other TOCs given the infection rates. Combined with a higher than normal training requirement because of the new fleets arriving, and you have a perfect storm.
 

yorksrob

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1) the agreements are not behind in Northern compared to elsewhere, AIUI.

2) but if they were, you might need to ask ASLEF local reps.

3) Northern have a higher turnover of drivers than most other TOCs, presumably because they pay less than others up there. Then they must have suffered more from Covid related absence than most other TOCs given the infection rates. Combined with a higher than normal training requirement because of the new fleets arriving, and you have a perfect storm.

That being the case, priority should be ensuring that already sparse services should be maintained, as opposed to embellishing already well served routes. I fear the opposite is currently policy in the North.
 

dk1

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1) the agreements are not behind in Northern compared to elsewhere, AIUI.

2) but if they were, you might need to ask ASLEF local reps.

3) Northern have a higher turnover of drivers than most other TOCs, presumably because they pay less than others up there. Then they must have suffered more from Covid related absence than most other TOCs given the infection rates. Combined with a higher than normal training requirement because of the new fleets arriving, and you have a perfect storm.
Also Greater Anglia & one other TOC which one escapes me, where the two who did the initial pilot scheme to reintroduce training.
 
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