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ideas for a possible Hall Farm curve reinstatement?

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Taunton

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A doubling of rail traffic implies a near doubling of risk.
That's one of those academic approaches that the rail industry seems to excel in, while everyone else gets on with life. Presumably then no service, anywhere, that crosses any level crossing can ever have an increased frequency. Although I seem to see a lot that have.

Meanwhile, actual apparent risks introduced at crossings (Elsenham, Athelney, new trains that don't operate AHBs properly in East Anglia, sticking a dozen UWCs under the control of one existing remote signaller, etc) get glossed over until something happens.
 
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Dave242

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A lot of ground work for it, was done when the Meridian Way works were going on. One time were future proofing it happened, rather than extra services just extend services on the N London line to Chingford and Meridian Way that currently stop at Stratford.

As to freight, why are we still running it through N London? Especially the stuff from Scotland, Trafford Park, Ditton Wakefield Leeds ect when this should be going cross country

Dave
 

hwl

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A lot of ground work for it, was done when the Meridian Way works were going on. One time were future proofing it happened, rather than extra services just extend services on the N London line to Chingford and Meridian Way that currently stop at Stratford.

As to freight, why are we still running it through N London? Especially the stuff from Scotland, Trafford Park, Ditton Wakefield Leeds ect when this should be going cross country

Dave
Not enough capacity cross country and the via London options are electrified.
The more Easterly destinations traffic tends to go via Ely and the more northerly / westerly destinations via London
 

Ianno87

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That's one of those academic approaches that the rail industry seems to excel in, while everyone else gets on with life. Presumably then no service, anywhere, that crosses any level crossing can ever have an increased frequency. Although I seem to see a lot that have.

It can increase, providing it doesn't increase the risk category.

Or if it does increase the risk category, you undertake mitigations to stop the risk category increasing (e.g. full barriers rather than an AHB).

Some level crossings you are out of mitigation options other than closing the crossing and replacing with a bridge. Which is entirely do-able with enough money and property acquisition added to the project bottom line.
 

Ronnie268

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Running the Overground through Stratford and up to Meridian Water (and even potentially to Chingford via the Hall Farm Curve) is apparently an option on the table as part of a total re-jig of Stratford station.
 

Dave242

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Not enough capacity cross country and the via London options are electrified.
The more Easterly destinations traffic tends to go via Ely and the more northerly / westerly destinations via London

as to the electrified route, most services are still 66’s one service last week through 30A from 10am to 2pm on Tuesday was a diesel 4L89.

as to capacity we have been told since Bacon Factory curve was put in that the amount of freight services would increase cross country and extra services put in at the bottom end due to this. An example being a 15m Southend service and an Norwich stopper

Dave
 

Railwaysceptic

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The Chingford line is my local line.
The through journey to Stratford would be hugely beneficial.
Correct. I agree.
The issues don’t stop at Stratford. On the assumption this would mean more services on the Chingford line, something would have to be done about Highams Park Level crossing. That something would almost certainly have to be a bridge. I also suspect power supply will be an issue. Finally, as @Ianno87 correctly says, pathing anymore services between Stratford and Lea Bridge in the peak is tricky at best.
The only way of tackling this issue is to close the line for several months, and then lower the track bed into a cutting, build a new low-level Highams Park Station and a gradient to re-access the original formation. This would be a huge and expensive project. As the railway came first and the houses after, it may be that that there aren't many pipes and cables needing to be moved. Certainly the level crossing at Highams Park is already a traffic problem. There is no room for a road bridge over the railway without ruining a pleasant outer London suburb.
Running the Overground through Stratford and up to Meridian Water (and even potentially to Chingford via the Hall Farm Curve) is apparently an option on the table as part of a total re-jig of Stratford station.
That would be by far the best way of operating a new service between Stratford and Chingford. No additional trains at Stratford, no extra demands upon the North London Line.
 

Ianno87

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Correct. I agree.

The only way of tackling this issue is to close the line for several months, and then lower the track bed into a cutting, build a new low-level Highams Park Station and a gradient to re-access the original formation. This would be a huge and expensive project. As the railway came first and the houses after, it may be that that there aren't many pipes and cables needing to be moved. Certainly the level crossing at Highams Park is already a traffic problem. There is no room for a road bridge over the railway without ruining a pleasant outer London suburb.

Suddenly the £40m quoted by the Council *really* looks optimistic!
 

Taunton

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as to capacity we have been told since Bacon Factory curve was put in that the amount of freight services would increase cross country and extra services put in at the bottom end due to this. An example being a 15m Southend service and an Norwich stopper
As ever with such NR projects, it was one item completed but left other issues. The works at Ipswich were done but the bottlenecks of single line past Soham (where, despite innumerable plans for doubling there, a contract has just been let for a rebuilt station, one platform only ...), congestion through Ely station, the Queen Adelaide level crossings, you name it.

Regarding power supply on the Chingford line, I can't really see that being likely an issue. Back when it was 12tph the line was electrified at just 6.25Kv. It's now four times the voltage with one third of the trains it used to have - and shorter ones. Do Anglia still sent ecs outer suburban trains off peak up to the sidings at Chingford? These used to come every few minutes over the Highams crossing after 9am, and back again after 4pm, in between the scheduled services.
 

Starmill

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That's one of those academic approaches that the rail industry seems to excel in, while everyone else gets on with life. Presumably then no service, anywhere, that crosses any level crossing can ever have an increased frequency.
Why else would there be such a drive to have crossings closed permanently?
 

cle

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The two termini (Meridian Water and Chingford) would need to handle the peak frequency of 8tph on the NLL - which is often discussed as being increased. Chingford I think could handle it, but could that quasi-'dark' stretch at Meridian Water? Or could services turn after Lea Bridge perhaps?

This is assuming nothing terminates at Stratford any more. Another approach could be looping the NLL at Stratford for certain services.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Suddenly the £40m quoted by the Council *really* looks optimistic!
Let me rub some salt into the wound: Waltham Forest Council is interested in opening a second new station, this time at Ruckholt Road in Leyton. No explanation so far about how it should be paid for!
 

Hey 3

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Let me rub some salt into the wound: Waltham Forest Council is interested in opening a second new station, this time at Ruckholt Road in Leyton. No explanation so far about how it should be paid for!
Huh
1601307284
Let me rub some salt into the wound: Waltham Forest Council is interested in opening a second new station, this time at Ruckholt Road in Leyton. No explanation so far about how it should be paid for!
I do not see how that will happen
 

Class 170101

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Regarding power supply on the Chingford line, I can't really see that being likely an issue. Back when it was 12tph the line was electrified at just 6.25Kv. It's now four times the voltage with one third of the trains it used to have - and shorter ones. Do Anglia still sent ecs outer suburban trains off peak up to the sidings at Chingford? These used to come every few minutes over the Highams crossing after 9am, and back again after 4pm, in between the scheduled services.

Higher power supplies maybe but also high power loading trains. Class 710s, Class 720s and Class 745s take more power than BR era Class 315s and Class 317s. No paths for GA to / from Chingford anymore.

The two termini (Meridian Water and Chingford) would need to handle the peak frequency of 8tph on the NLL - which is often discussed as being increased. Chingford I think could handle it, but could that quasi-'dark' stretch at Meridian Water? Or could services turn after Lea Bridge perhaps?

This is assuming nothing terminates at Stratford any more. Another approach could be looping the NLL at Stratford for certain services.

Chingford should be able to take more trains but Meridian Water no chance beyond 2tph right now given its layout. However Stratford isn't resolved by using 11 and 12 due to long freights at Platform 10A fouling Stratford Central Jn hence the earlier discussion between myself and Bald Rick where I refer to 12 being demolished to allow services from 1 and 2 to reach the West Anglia route without crossing Stratford Central Jn.
 

Bald Rick

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It seems some explanation is due.

That's one of those academic approaches that the rail industry seems to excel in, while everyone else gets on with life. Presumably then no service, anywhere, that crosses any level crossing can ever have an increased frequency. Although I seem to see a lot that have.

Meanwhile, actual apparent risks introduced at crossings (Elsenham, Athelney, new trains that don't operate AHBs properly in East Anglia, sticking a dozen UWCs under the control of one existing remote signaller, etc) get glossed over until something happens.

I’m afraid you’ve just argued against yourself.

Anywhere where services have been proposed to be increased materially (more than about 5-10%) in the past decade (at least) will have had any level crossings on the route reassessed. Where these assessments have identified an increase in risk, mitigation proposals must be generated. If those mitigation proposals are reasonably practical, then they must be done. And they have been, but most of them won’t be visible to the lay person. I have personally overseen several service increases where this has been done.

Your comparison with Elsenham etc is a case in point. The crossings were reassessed. Risk had increased, Mitigating actions were proposed. These were not done. Hence court case. Sitting in a room with Tina Hughes where she explains calmly to an audience that her daughter died because of this, is something that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. I also know people who have had unpleasant days in various BTP police stations being interviewed under caution on suspicion of manslaghter because of incidents at level crossings where there was some doubt about the risk assessments. It must be done, and done properly.

Installing phones at various UWCs has been done precisely because of increased risk at the LXs concerned, often caused by an increase in service. That’s not to say it was done perfectly, although in most cases it was.


What does this mean for Highams Park? It is a CCTV crossing that is already at the maximum level of protection, but is, nevertheless, in the second highest category of risk. (There are almost no crossings in the top category of risk, as they tend to get closed). This risk is based on the current service, with 8 train crossings an hour. IIRC the crossing is closed to traffic 20-24 minutes in each hour. Doubling the train service will, roughly, double the risk, and extend the crossing closure to 35-40 minutes per hour (at a guess). Crossing misuse and abuse typically increase disproportionately when barrier down times increase, and this is a notable driver of risk at Highams Park. The longer barrier down time will have implications for the road network, and of course the buses.

There is no doubt that the risk will increase significantly, and no doubt that some form of mitigation is possible, which as it already has the highest level of protection can only be to close the crossing, possibly building an alternative means of crossing the line. Whether it is reasonable to do so is another matter, and one which would have to be tested, ultimately in a public inquiry. But it would be far more preferable to have the public inquiry before someone loses their life than afterwards.

A lot of ground work for it, was done when the Meridian Way works were going on. One time were future proofing it happened, rather than extra services just extend services on the N London line to Chingford and Meridian Way that currently stop at Stratford.

The future proofing is for 4 tracks on the Lea Valley Line, and nothing to do with Hall Farm Curve.

The only way of tackling this issue is to close the line for several months, and then lower the track bed into a cutting, build a new low-level Highams Park Station and a gradient to re-access the original formation. This would be a huge and expensive project. As the railway came first and the houses after, it may be that that there aren't many pipes and cables needing to be moved. Certainly the level crossing at Highams Park is already a traffic problem. There is no room for a road bridge over the railway without ruining a pleasant outer London suburb.

Track lowering would be very expensive and disruptive, and not just to the railway. It would take a couple of years to do, and would almost certainly need more land take and demolition than a road crossing. Unfortunately you can’t just dig a hole on the line of the railway, you have to pile the walls first, then get the muck away, and that means big plant, and that means taking other people’s property to move it around. Lots of it, for the majority of the kilometre or so that the track is being lowered for. It would certainly be much cheaper, less disruptive to the community, and much less disruptive to rail services to build a road bridge or road underpass.


Regarding power supply on the Chingford line, I can't really see that being likely an issue. Back when it was 12tph the line was electrified at just 6.25Kv. It's now four times the voltage with one third of the trains it used to have - and shorter ones.

On the Chingford Line, yes, albeit they are only a couple of metres shorter. A 9 car 305 was 182m and 1.8MW. An 8 car 710 is 165m and 3.6MW, ie twice the power. However that power supply is also powering many more trains on the Lea Valley line, plus trains to Stratford and Meridian Water, that didn’t run in the 60s. I don’t know the precise details, but I’d be surprised if Northumberland Park feeder could take much more demand than what it is already committed to with the new GA and LO fleets.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Track lowering would be very expensive and disruptive, and not just to the railway. It would take a couple of years to do, and would almost certainly need more land take and demolition than a road crossing. Unfortunately you can’t just dig a hole on the line of the railway, you have to pile the walls first, then get the muck away, and that means big plant, and that means taking other people’s property to move it around. Lots of it, for the majority of the kilometre or so that the track is being lowered for. It would certainly be much cheaper, less disruptive to the community, and much less disruptive to rail services to build a road bridge or road underpass.
I don't disagree with any of that. However I point out again that there is no room at Highams Park for a bridge over or an underpass under the railway without very substantially damaging a pleasant neighbourhood. Frankly, I doubt you'd get planning permission. There's also a big Tesco nearby and that litigious company might have something to say. Local residents would be far more sympathetic to some people having their back gardens reduced by a few feet than to new transport infrastructure that spoils the neighbourhood. Any solution eliminating the problem without creating a new one will be much welcomed by the local population.
 

Bald Rick

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Local residents would be far more sympathetic to some people having their back gardens reduced by a few feet than to new transport infrastructure that spoils the neighbourhood. Any solution eliminating the problem without creating a new one will be much welcomed by the local population.

I have some experience of this elsewhere, and can assure you that the local people who would be losing part of their garden (or more) half a kilometre from the crossing are very much not sympathetic with the principle of doing so because it avoids some issues for other people several hundred metres away.

Besides, when this has been looked at elsewhere, the land take and demolition involved in dropping the railway is almost always more extensive than that required for building a road crossing. And for the rail crossing it is spread out over a much wider footprint, affecting a great many more people, particularly for the noise / dust impacts of the actual construction period.
 

Class 170101

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On the Chingford Line, yes, albeit they are only a couple of metres shorter. A 9 car 305 was 182m and 1.8MW. An 8 car 710 is 165m and 3.6MW, ie twice the power. However that power supply is also powering many more trains on the Lea Valley line, plus trains to Stratford and Meridian Water, that didn’t run in the 60s. I don’t know the precise details, but I’d be surprised if Northumberland Park feeder could take much more demand than what it is already committed to with the new GA and LO fleets.

No chance on Northumberland Park. Note that when the Gospel Oak to Barking Line was wired its supplied by West Ham / Barking feeder Station in the east and Acton Lane (Harlesden) to the west. None of feeder stations from the other adjacent lines GEML, WAML, ECML, MML supply the T&H.
 

sjoh

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I don't disagree with any of that. However I point out again that there is no room at Highams Park for a bridge over or an underpass under the railway without very substantially damaging a pleasant neighbourhood. Frankly, I doubt you'd get planning permission. There's also a big Tesco nearby and that litigious company might have something to say.

Some would argue that said big Tesco has already substantially damaged a pleasant neighbourhood...
 

Sad Sprinter

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If you want to link Stratford to Walthamstow, how about?

Central Line/LO interchange near Leytonstone?
Victoria Line extension to Leytonstone?
Tunnelled DLR link from International up to Walthamstow?
 

Railwaysceptic

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Some would argue that said big Tesco has already substantially damaged a pleasant neighbourhood...
The people of Highams Park didn't want a big supermarket and Tesco had to push again and again before obtaining permission. That gives a good indication of how the local people would respond to a scheme for a bridge or underpass.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

VLE will never happen
Why not? Such an extension would be a major benefit to people living in LB of Redbridge as well as to people in Leyton and Leytonstone. It would also reduce the severe overcrowding at peak times of Central Line trains between Leytonstone and Stratford which will probably intensify when Crossrail finally opens.
 
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Bald Rick

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Why not? Such an extension would be a major benefit to people living in LB of Redbridge as well as to people in Leyton and Leytonstone. It would also reduce the severe overcrowding at peak times of Central Line trains between Leytonstone and Stratford which will probably intensify when Crossrail finally opens.

Because the Vic Line is already full (in normal times), and doesn’t need more passengers filling it up.

Oh and there’s no money!
 

Doctor Fegg

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The people of Highams Park didn't want a big supermarket and Tesco had to push again and again before obtaining permission. That gives a good indication of how the local people would respond to a scheme for a bridge or underpass.

It's 2020 and frankly we should have long stopped indulging car drivers at the expense of sustainable modes such as rail. If the choice is between more people travelling by train (via increased services) or journey times for drivers, we should be going for the former, every time.

So a stepped footbridge would seem entirely appropriate for this location. I'd think that the subway would be adequate for disabled access (on the basis that a ramped footbridge would be no quicker), but I confess I don't know the legislation well enough.

Of course, this is a point of principle, and principles don't usually win planning applications. But the tide is slowly, very slowly turning. A scheme that seems unachievable now could be more politically realistic in five years' time.
 

Railwaysceptic

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Because the Vic Line is already full (in normal times), and doesn’t need more passengers filling it up.

Oh and there’s no money!
The Central Line between Leytonstone and Central London is more crowded than the Victoria Line, and between Leytonstone and Stratford is much
more crowded than the Victoria line between Walthamstow Central and Seven Sisters.

The money? Yes, but that's true of all projects and this is the "Speculative" forum and "will never happen" is a very long term prediction.
 

Ianno87

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It's 2020 and frankly we should have long stopped indulging car drivers at the expense of sustainable modes such as rail. If the choice is between more people travelling by train (via increased services) or journey times for drivers, we should be going for the former, every time.

So a stepped footbridge would seem entirely appropriate for this location. I'd think that the subway would be adequate for disabled access (on the basis that a ramped footbridge would be no quicker), but I confess I don't know the legislation well enough.

Of course, this is a point of principle, and principles don't usually win planning applications. But the tide is slowly, very slowly turning. A scheme that seems unachievable now could be more politically realistic in five years' time.

However, things like retaining access and response times for emergency vehicles are also important considerations which 'replace it with a footbridge' does not necessarily adequately cater for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The Central Line between Leytonstone and Central London is more crowded than the Victoria Line, and between Leytonstone and Stratford is much
more crowded than the Victoria line between Walthamstow Central and Seven Sisters.

The money? Yes, but that's true of all projects and this is the "Speculative" forum and "will never happen" is a very long term prediction.

*However* the Central Line has more latent capability in terms of signalling capacity not already used (i.e. the high peak on the Central is short whilst it is 3 hours long on the Vic), and Central Line will get capacity relief from Crossrail, freeing up space.
 

sjoh

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The people of Highams Park didn't want a big supermarket and Tesco had to push again and again before obtaining permission. That gives a good indication of how the local people would respond to a scheme for a bridge or underpass.

Aye, I'm aware. Have lived in and around Waltham Forest for about 20 years!
 

Railwaysceptic

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*However* the Central Line has more latent capability in terms of signalling capacity not already used (i.e. the high peak on the Central is short whilst it is 3 hours long on the Vic), and Central Line will get capacity relief from Crossrail, freeing up space.
Crossrail will not free up space east/north of Stratford. It will aggravate the existing problem and it will not provide a better way for residents of the London Borough Of Redbridge to travel to Kings Cross, Euston, Victoria or University College Hospital (UCH).
 

Ianno87

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Crossrail will not free up space east/north of Stratford. It will aggravate the existing problem and it will not provide a better way for residents of the London Borough Of Redbridge to travel to Kings Cross, Euston, Victoria or University College Hospital (UCH).

But north/east of Stratford is not the critical load point off memory Liverpool Street-Bank is.
 

Railwaysceptic

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But north/east of Stratford is not the critical load point off memory Liverpool Street-Bank is.
For people who live in that catchment area, it's as important as the rest of the journey. I don't know where you live or how often you use the Central Line north of Stratford but at peak times the trains are crush loaded between Leytonstone and Stratford. They come in three minute intervals, they're eight coaches long and it's difficult to get on! They're also pretty full off peak. As many passengers will be going to the points I mentioned previously, it would/will be sensible and constructive to extend the Victoria Line the two miles (as the crow flies) to Leytonstone.
 
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