Future DMU Orders

[YorkshireBear]

A discussion started in class 172 thread about this so im creating its own thread.

A few said there should be no or will be no future orders of DMU's.

I personally disagree, as lines will not be electrified soon, Eg. GWML and NW have all been postponed if not cancelled completely.also Pacers and indeed sprinters are not going to last too much longer.

Also a must is new carriges for TPE and XC, how easy would it be for new carriges to be ordered for the 185's? as ive seen (not a reliable source) they were orignially designed to be up to 6 cars. What kind of cost would we be looking at for at least 1 new carrige for every yoyager and 185?v
thoughts

 

[142094]

Anyone who has said no more DMUs should be ordered is crazy. We'll not see all of the network electrified anytime soon and I bet we'll still have HSTs and 142s around in 10 years time.

 

[ainsworth74]

What kind of cost would we be looking at for at least 1 new carrige for every yoyager and 185?

For 185's a lot because as far as I am aware the production line is closed therefore you would be starting from scratch if the order was big enough it might be worth while but for 1 extra car each I can't imagine it.

 

[Donny Dave]

For 185's a lot because as far as I am aware the production line is closed therefore you would be starting from scratch if the order was big enough it might be worth while but for 1 extra car each I can't imagine it.

Not only has the production line closed, but the design has changed anyway ....

 

[YorkshireBear]

For 185's a lot because as far as I am aware the production line is closed therefore you would be starting from scratch if the order was big enough it might be worth while but for 1 extra car each I can't imagine it.

Not only has the production line closed, but the design has changed anyway ....

Fair enough then, well i think they should look into some more turbostars once the problems have been sorted out, they could have interior desgins similar to those on stanstead express units as in my opinion for airport services 185's have shocking luggage handling you never get on and don't see suitcases in doors.

 

[duffman82]

Anyone who has said no more DMUs should be ordered is crazy. We'll not see all of the network electrified anytime soon and I bet we'll still have HSTs and 142s around in 10 years time.

I can see HST's for another 20 years ! Not that i'm complaining

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone who has said no more DMUs should be ordered is crazy.

I agree. The last Labour government, who cancelled the DMU orders because of imminent electrification, were definitely crazy...

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree. The last Labour government, who cancelled the DMU orders because of imminent electrification, were definitely crazy...

very good point i'd forgot about that, wish that had happened now it would be under way with little chance to cancel....

 

[WatcherZero]

500 days since last rolling stock order, a lot rests on what will happen this Autumn, maybe the Conservatives will try and beat their record.

 

[LE Greys]

It's unlikely that every single rural branch line will be electrified. We were supposed to get some sort of 'green DMU' a few years ago, along with the supposed 'tram-train'. What happened to those? I'm not sure what we will have in ten years, but I expect it will be single-car, two-car or three-car, twin bogie, lightweight, roughly 300hp/vehicle, max speed 75mph and with universal route availability. Basically, a Super-duper Sprinter. It might be the Class 145 or Class 160, and would replace pretty much all Pacers and Sprinters throughout the entire country.

Otherwise, we will end up in the very uneconomic situation of 175s on the Heart of Wales, 170s on the West Highland and 185s on the Harrogate Loop. Hideously overpowered, using vast quantities of fuel and beginning to deteriorate by 2030 or so.

 

[Drsatan]

The only way Pacers are going to be replaced quickly is if passengers are killed in an accident, and it's proven that their poor crash protection increased the death toll in such an accident.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: those ex IE Mk3s currently being scrapped should be repatriated ASAP and used on routes where their use would allow stock to be cascaded. For instance, assuming there were enough class 90s in use, why not use 90s and Mk3s on KX-Leeds/Newcastle semi-fasts, and cascade some of the HSTs used on those to EMT, which would allow 222s to replace 158s on Liverpool-Nottingham services?

Oh, and at the same time, order four or five extra Pendolinos and use them on Birmingham NS-Glasgow services to allow the displaced Voyagers to go to XC?

Oh, I forgot. DfT seems to be allergic to anything loco-hauled.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Didn't realise mk3's were being scrapped thats a disgrace, mk2's maybe... not mk3's

i still think if MML electrified 90's could work that easily. I remember when 90's worked north berwick branch, there was nothing wrong with that.

I'd hope any future DMU order would contain very few 1 car and 2 car units, the few areas of network which will at max need 1 car or 2 car should use sprinters rest cam be new. Future DMU's for almost any purpose should be at least 3 car. in yorkshire a 3 car 144 often just about copes even at peak

 

[atomicdanny]

If it were up to me I would order as many 3 - 4 car turbostars (either 170 or 172) or similar to replace the pacers and the older DMUs including the 150s, 153 and 155s or even something already being made in Germany similar to this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Regio-DB.jpg or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD)

Although the only exception to the stock would be to keep the 121 on the cardiff bay branch though!

 

[Drsatan]

If it were up to me I would order as many 3 - 4 car turbostars (either 170 or 172) or similar to replace the pacers and the older DMUs including the 150s, 153 and 155s or even something already being made in Germany similar to this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Regio-DB.jpg or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD)

Although the only exception to the stock would be to keep the 121 on the cardiff bay branch though!

I agree, although the ICE TD has an awful reliability record and using off-the-shelf low-floor DMUs wouldn't be compatible with much higher UK platforms.

 

[142094]

The only way Pacers are going to be replaced quickly is if passengers are killed in an accident, and it's proven that their poor crash protection increased the death toll in such an accident.

People thought the same thing after that one crashed into the 86 on the WCML. Afterwards Pacers were deemed to be safe.

 

[Drsatan]

People thought the same thing after that one crashed into the 86 on the WCML. Afterwards Pacers were deemed to be safe.

The Pacer was running ECS so no-one was killed, although if it was running in service and people were killed then they would have been withdrawn by now.

 

[142094]

Still though after that incident they were deemed to be safe, otherwise they wouldn't be running today.

"There is a constant programme of upgrading our stock. I would not accept that any of that rolling stock is unsafe."

Taken from the Lancashire Evening Post here.

As an aside, also good to see someone on Wikipedia looks at the forums:

^ "Discussion of the cascades on Rail Forums". http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=413810&postcount=38. Retrieved 2003-3-7.

Not sure how they retrieved it in 2003 though...

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure I would call this particularly safe, anyone in the driving cab and by the looks of it the vestibule would have been killed even if Geoff Hoon says there is no unsafe rolling stock.

(Sorry for image size, best I could find)

 

[142094]

They may not be as safe as some of the more modern stock, but I would still count them as safe. If they were not deemed to be safe, they would have been withdrawn years ago, otherwise the TOC or DfT would be liable for any loss of life.

 

[Donny Dave]

Still though after that incident they were deemed to be safe, otherwise they wouldn't be running today.

The had to have some pretty big modifications made to them though to enable them to continue running.

 

[ukrob]

And in twenty years time people will be calling for Class 170s to be withdrawn because they are not as safe as newer stock, so I don't really see what the point is.

There will NEVER EVER be a point at which all stock is equally 'safe'.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Pacers will be with us for a while, because evntually we will need taht many carriges that on some of the more isolated lines e.g sheffield huddersfield or sheffield lincoln they will work in multiple to improve capacity. There not too bad i think in multiple they will provide a good enough service on some slow speed lines.

 

[455driver]

Pacers will be with us for a while, because evntually we will need taht many carriges that on some of the more isolated lines e.g sheffield huddersfield or sheffield lincoln they will work in multiple to improve capacity. There not too bad i think in multiple they will provide a good enough service on some slow speed lines.

Maybe they will fit them with corridor connectors so the guard can get through!



No I am not being serious

 

[brad465]

I can see HST's for another 20 years ! Not that i'm complaining

Same here, they were alright 30 years ago but now that there getting old it's just too hard to bare with

 

[YorkshireBear]

sad day when HST's are not longer in use but i don't think it's gonna be a long time yet so no need to worry

 

[142094]

And in twenty years time people will be calling for Class 170s to be withdrawn because they are not as safe as newer stock, so I don't really see what the point is.

There will NEVER EVER be a point at which all stock is equally 'safe'.

Exactly. I'm beginning to think the same will happen with TVs, HD was all the rage a few years back, now its LED and 3D.

 

[158722]

I agree. The last Labour government, who cancelled the DMU orders because of imminent electrification, were definitely crazy...

Not a political statement on my behalf, but sorry, no they were not crazy - in Andrew Adonis we finally had a transport secretary who had a grasp of what was important on the railways and came up with sensible plans to electrify certain parts of the network, allied with building new electric units allowing a series stock cascades resulting in reductions in the least attractive parts of the UK fleets - logically Pacers. EMUs will always have a far longer life than DMUs and the ROSCOs will be very wary about future builds of the latter, as when the economy picks up again, then the North West and GW plans will be dusted off and they will happen. Refurb'ed 319s for both of the above plans would have seen a range of 142s, 143s, 150s, 153s, 156s, 158s, 165/166s displaced or used to eliminate units further down the food chain. I think we'll just have survive with the current fleets for a while yet and hope there might be 'economic space' for some joined up thinking as regards new electric fleets and more electrification in the next couple of years. More DMUs now is just crazy...

 

[MCR247]

Exactly. I'm beginning to think the same will happen with TVs, HD was all the rage a few years back, now its LED and 3D.

Just like apple. The first one comes out, by the time you afford to buy it, you buy it and a new one comes out
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apple

 

[dave59]

Not a political statement on my behalf, but sorry, no they were not crazy - in Andrew Adonis we finally had a transport secretary who had a grasp of what was important on the railways and came up with sensible plans to electrify certain parts of the network, allied with building new electric units allowing a series stock cascades resulting in reductions in the least attractive parts of the UK fleets - logically Pacers. EMUs will always have a far longer life than DMUs and the ROSCOs will be very wary about future builds of the latter, as when the economy picks up again, then the North West and GW plans will be dusted off and they will happen. Refurb'ed 319s for both of the above plans would have seen a range of 142s, 143s, 150s, 153s, 156s, 158s, 165/166s displaced or used to eliminate units further down the food chain. I think we'll just have survive with the current fleets for a while yet and hope there might be 'economic space' for some joined up thinking as regards new electric fleets and more electrification in the next couple of years. More DMUs now is just crazy...

Number one priority should be to create a significant cascade of diesel stock now running long distances on electrified lines. The 221's and EC HST's should be moved on in favour of new EMU's. This can happen long before more wires go up. Today's electrified network is not maximised because operators like the flexibility of diesel for diversions etc and don't want en route drags/loco changes. Electric haulage needs to be incentivised or made mandatory where possible in parallel with a rolling programme, however slowly this may happen. New DMU's should be avoided.

 

[tbtc]

As I've argued a number of times, we need something "basic" to replace Pacers.

Most people's plans involve:

(1) Electrifying lots of lines
(2) New High Speed trains allowing Voyagers/ Meridians to replace 170s (etc etc) so that you end up with 158s on "local" routes
(3) Both of the above

Whilst that's nice, it'll be years away before we can wire everything up, and stock like 158s aren't suitable for low speed services that stop a lot (where you need big doors to deal with the station dwells)

I know it won't be popular with some (who want the railways to concentrate on 150mph flashy trains), but a lot of routes just need something "simple" for bread and butter routes. No buffet cars, no wi-fi, no 100mph capabilities...