Treatment of students at universities

[Jamiescott1]

Have you spoke to the SU? Or are they supporting this nonsense

 

[Ianno87]

I'm in this situation. For context, I'm staying in university halls. We've been told that at the moment we are not allowed to:

Go home and see family
Go to the pub, or any cafe/restaurant
Visit anyone else outwith the flat
Socialise with any more than 1 household outdoors


If we do so, we could get fined thousands, sent home, or chucked off the course.

There are posters on the wall saying 'social gatherings will not be tolerated, fine: £1,000'

We've also had a local resident complained to the accommodation because they saw two people outside the building, not social distancing. They've told us they'll be checking the perimeters and any rule breakers will be fined or their contract terminated.

We got an email today saying they'll be watching CCTV to see who's going where and if anyone is seen letting someone else into their flat, it'll be notified to the police, we are also being told that we are putting everyone at risk if we break any rules and that if we do so we will be removed from our university for dangerous behaviour.

I'm so so angry I can't even put it into words, and I'm going to be doing deep research into human rights laws to see what they say, needless to say if I find an anomaly they WILL know about it.

Quite frankly, I feel like I'm in prison, just that I can leave, but only for certain reasons. Hate it here and frankly I can't wait until this **** is over with.

If anyone thinks this is really justified, I'm up for a very lengthy and very passionate argument, it's awful.

I'm honestly speechless. That's atrocious.


University is hard for some, particularly if you're a natural introvert so take longer to form social friendships. This won't at all.

And sounds like you *really* have to get on with the people you are in halls with!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Universities typically like to take things into their own hands to satisfy the most vocal resident groups who are usually based in the local student areas (why any normal residents would choose to live in a student area is beyond me, most of the time houses aren't even cheaper there).

Some towns and cities don't work like that, typically the smaller ones. Lancaster, for instance, has student properties in pretty much all areas other than the really posh ones.

 

[Huntergreed]

Have you spoke to the SU? Or are they supporting this nonsense

They’ve no choice to support it, as they’re doing everything they can to try keep the building open. If we’re shown to flout the rules too much, it’s likely Sturgeon will shut us down and move us online sadly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They’ve no choice to support it, as they’re doing everything they can to try keep the building open. If we’re shown to flout the rules too much, it’s likely Sturgeon will shut us down and move us online sadly.

Would you not rather that than all this nonsense? I would. Bringing education back in full was never viable, and the case rates at the moment prove it.

 

[Huntergreed]

Would you not rather that than all this nonsense? I would. Bringing education back in full was never viable, and the case rates at the moment prove it.

It’s not viable with the current strategy, but keeping students out of university for another year is equally not viable given how low risk they are. A balance must be struck, and suffice to say it’s not being right now.

 

[duncanp]

Would you not rather that than all this nonsense? I would. Bringing education back in full was never viable, and the case rates at the moment prove it.

The problem with moving all university education online is how long does this go on for.

Just this term, or the whole of the 2020/2021 academic year?

And what about science courses such as chemistry and physics where students need to work in a lab, or courses such as music where students need to play together in a band or orchestra?

Just as with schools, you have to bring universities back to on campus learning at some point.

Moving everything online is just kicking the can down the road.

I think Mrs Krankie Nicola Sturgeon is taking advantage of the fact that Scottish students don't pay tuition fees, in order to be able to bully and threaten them in this outrageous way.

In England, where tuition fees are up to £9,000 per year, universities see students as paying customers, and are reluctant to expel them except for the most serious breaches of discipline because to do so would be waving goodbye to all that lovely tuition fee income.

As some courses are moved online, students are beginning to question what they are getting for their £9,000, and wondering whether, if courses are completely online, they might as well study at The Open University, where fees are much lower.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As some courses are moved online, students are beginning to question what they are getting for their £9,000, and wondering whether, if courses are completely online, they might as well study at The Open University, where fees are much lower.

OU is a very different game, it isn't purely a red-brick via Zoom. It's very self-led and there is very little interaction with others bar at occasional tutorials. While it is good (I got a second degree through it), it's not the same thing as what people should be getting in the temporary moving online of a red-brick University - basically that should be giving you exactly what you had in person but via Zoom, with a lot of interaction.

Yes, it's cheaper than a red-brick, and has some distinct advantages (e.g. you can read the course material while sat on a train, a Zoom lecture is a bit less practical) but you get a lot less for your money in terms of the experience and have to do far more of the "background" work off your own back.

 

[MalaiseForever]

I’ve not even bothered signing up for accomodation in my uni city this year. Everything is online and we’re only allowed in library twice a week if it is prebooked.

I am staying at Home and travelling up for a day or two a week if I fancy a day out on campus (and I can get a space in library). What is happening in Scotland is a disgrace and no doubt england will follow suit. They should never have forced students into accomodation this year.

 

[duncanp]

OU is a very different game, it isn't purely a red-brick via Zoom. It's very self-led and there is very little interaction with others bar at occasional tutorials. While it is good (I got a second degree through it), it's not the same thing as what people should be getting in the temporary moving online of a red-brick University - basically that should be giving you exactly what you had in person but via Zoom, with a lot of interaction.

Yes, it's cheaper than a red-brick, and has some distinct advantages (e.g. you can read the course material while sat on a train, a Zoom lecture is a bit less practical) but you get a lot less for your money in terms of the experience and have to do far more of the "background" work off your own back.

True, but students in England are beginning to wonder what they are getting for their £9,000, and if a course is moved wholly or partially online, shouldn't they be getting a partial reimbursement of their tuition fees.

As with other areas of the economy, some universities could well go bankrupt as a result of COVID-19.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, but students in England are beginning to wonder what they are getting for their £9,000, and if a course is moved wholly or partially online, shouldn't they be getting a partial reimbursement of their tuition fees.

If what they are getting is a Zoom based version of what they would have had, I don't see why they should - the University's costs aren't any lower. The OU is cheaper, yes, but the OU isn't, as I said, a Zoom based version of a traditional university course - it has very, very little personal contact. I would expect traditional Universities to be conducting courses pretty much as normal but using Zoom (which itself is not free).

Long term costs may be able to be brought down by disposing of buildings, but that's only if this goes on forever, which no previous pandemic has.

(Other online conferencing applications are available )

 

[DelayRepay]

If what they are getting is a Zoom based version of what they would have had, I don't see why they should - the University's costs aren't any lower. The OU is cheaper, yes, but the OU isn't, as I said, a Zoom based version of a traditional university course - it has very, very little personal contact. I would expect traditional Universities to be conducting courses pretty much as normal but using Zoom (which itself is not free).

Sorry - not a student here but I've had six months of Zoom based everything. Zoom based work, Zoom based pub quizzes, Zoom based birthday parties.

Why on earth would someone go to university to spend all day using Zoom?

The courses would not be pretty much as normal.

I may be wrong but I believe @Huntergreed has previously mentioned studying music? If this is the case I'm not sure how that would work over Zoom. The same applies to all manner of practical subjects.

 

[radamfi]

Aren't there free or cheap universities in places like Berlin or Maastricht that a lot of people go to now to avoid £9,000 tuition fees?

Is student life more normal there?

 

[thejuggler]

I was speaking to a friend whose son has just started his 1st year. He missed his first choice due to the A level debacle, he is now about an hour from home, in uni accommodation with 8 bedrooms and he is the only one in it.

Timetable looks like he will hardly be at uni, nearly all online lectures he can do from anywhere so he is now considering saving the accommodation costs and commuting when he needs to.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Sorry to hear of your troubles at uni.

Some of my university collaborators have pointed out to me that there are motives to some of this that go beyond public health. Many universities only resumed some face to face teaching as they knew the students would be less willing to pay, what is it now, 10 grand (?) or so for an online course. But wait - if the students all get The Rona in their halls/houses, blame them and say it's unsafe to teach in person! Et Voila!! Oh and you can't have your fees back because you didn't follow our instructions. A similar trick has been pulled at Stateside Universities. I've heard similar stories from academics right across the UK system, from Oxbridge/Russell group through to ex-polytech.

 

[SuspectUsual]

That’s horrific.

In general terms I’ve thought - so far - that Krankie is having a better pandemic than the goon in Downing Street, but this is a massive error of judgement and frankly dangerous, both in terms of the precedent it sets and what it could do to young people’s mental health

Add me to the list of people happy to support via a zoom call or whatever

 

[Huntergreed]

That’s horrific.

In general terms I’ve thought - so far - that Krankie is having a better pandemic than the goon in Downing Street, but this is a massive error of judgement and frankly dangerous, both in terms of the precedent it sets and what it could do to young people’s mental health

Add me to the list of people happy to support via a zoom call or whatever

Thank you, much appreciated. And I wouldn’t say she’s been doing better, she’s been much harsher and making it political the whole time. The numbers are lower admittedly, but she’s not really considering the implications of her actions on mental health, the economy, or livelihoods anywhere near as much as she should be, at least in my opinion.

 

[yorksrob]

I tend to not agree with Ms Sturgeons lockdown policies anyway, but if students are being discriminated against by not being allowed to enjoy everyday activities it is indeed shocking.

I have a friend who works as a lecturer in a university im England and he said that corridors were being treated as bubbles due to communal facilities, which makes sense. Other than that, they can engage in any activities that any other citizen can engage in (although the area has just gone into a local lockdown, in spite of having comparatively low levels of infections).

 

[DustyBin]

Does anyone here want to argue that this is not dystopian? Because I would very much argue that this is exactly what it is, and that if universities are allowed to get away with it, how long before this kind of treatment leaks further into society. Orwell will be spinning in his grave right now.

I'm just so shocked and angry for you right now. Would you mind if I shared your experience with my social network? This is the kind of thing more people need to know about.




I wouldn't say there is nothing they can do. I would make sure those box tickers there know exactly what they have done. I would be writing a strongly worded complaint to the university, the local MP & Police Chief, and the First Minister, with copies sent to all relevant newspapers and other media organisations. In it I would tell them exactly what it was doing to me mentally & physically. I'd also keep a day to day journal of events and emotions that I could refer back to, and use this to regularly update the aforementioned authorities and media. They might not be able to protest without fear of arrest, but there is nothing to stop the students making sure that everybody that is involved knows exactly the consequences of their actions, and make sure that it stays in the public view through the media. Some may try to ignore it, but the more students that articulate what is happening to them, the harder it will be. Sooner or later someone will sit up and take notice, and then those that didn't will pay the price for what they have done.

You make some good points there, I said what I said on the basis that nobody would listen but yes certainly do make your feelings known OP!

Keeping a log/diary is an excellent suggestion, they really bring to life the experiences of people in a way complaint letters don’t.

I’m still speechless over this....

 

[Bantamzen]

You make some good points there, I said what I said on the basis that nobody would listen but yes certainly do make your feelings known OP!

Keeping a log/diary is an excellent suggestion, they really bring to life the experiences of people in a way complaint letters don’t.

I’m still speechless over this....

I've used the log/diary thing myself in the past when I was managed by an absolute hateful person of a manager who made everyone's lives a misery. Obviously there was no talking to him, and his boss wasn't initially interested so a few of us started noting things that were happening & the effect it was having on the team. Then with the help of the union we complained as far and wide as we could, eventually leading to said manager being called in and moved somewhere were they couldn't do as much damage. Its a powerful tool when you connect actions to consequences.

 

[nedchester]

Just catching up with this.

It's some years since I was at University but if I was there I'd be looking at organising a 'mass disobedience' by all the students and this is the only way things can change.

Individual students are finding it difficult to act on their own because the authorities will divide and rule. Time for student protests similar to the ones we saw in the 60s/70s.

Moderator note: For further discussion regarding the possibility of protests, please use the following thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oritarianism-and-covid19-restrictions.209501/

 

[ainsworth74]

One can only hope that affected students remember this come election time and a) vote and b) think carefully about who to vote for...

Otherwise for all those caught up in this now you have my very best wishes. It sounds freaking awful and entirely predictable so it's shocking that the response seems to be such a kneejerk. Then again it's young people, which politician gives a stuff about them anyway? Far easier to ignore or blame them. (see previous exaltation to vote, then they might care)

 

[nedchester]

It is happening but only on a small scale; many people are extremely reluctant to be seen to have anything to do with the ridiculous anti-vax / conspiracy theorists (and rightly so) but if the protests progress to be seen as mainstream then I think they would increase massively in popularity.

That's the point the nutters (anti-vaxxers, Bill Gates conspiracy theorists) are nothing to do with this. Most people are willing to take reasonable precautions in the current situation but the current rules in Scottish Universities go way beyond that.

 

[big_rig]

Absolutely ludicrous quote from an 'expert' today. Any vestige of sanity is quickly swirling down the drain. 2/3rds of students (1.6 million people) should be prevented from going to university and instead spend their time helping out here and there with 'youth projects' 'while the pandemic is dealt with.' When will that be again, please? Can I ask Dr Ashton familiarise himself with the concept of cost-benefit analysis instead of desperately trying to prevent any covid, ever?

“The rational thing to have done would be for universities throughout the UK, within the whole educational system, to limit student numbers to a third of their normal populations. This would mean less density and make it easier to impose hygiene and safe distancing policies,” Dr Ashton said.

“The one-third rule should have been extended until the end of this year at least and the two-thirds who aren’t on campus could be given socially useful things to do, like help out with open-air activities for schools and youth projects while the pandemic is dealt with.”

Universities should be two-thirds empty to avoid Covid spikes, says expert

Dr John Ashton calls for ‘far less density’ in student populations to avoid major increase in cases

www.theguardian.com

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't really have any problem at this point with restrictions on social gatherings. My mental health has and will take a hit from it, but these are unprecedented times, and I can still have contact over technological means and at a 2 metre distance, if I so desire. However, if the case numbers fall to negligible levels and the restrictions haven't been removed, then I will be angry.

What I do have a problem with is the vigilante culture that is being encouraged. There is no way that people should be encouraged to dob in their mates for fines of thousands. That's just disgusting. And that societal shift in culture is going to be much harder to reverse. Similarly I'm sure lots of places are considering getting CCTV fitted or hiring more security guards; that won't go away.

I don't tend to report crimes that don't affect me. I'll report illegal parking, but only if it obstructs me. I'll report noise nuisances, but only if they prevent me from sleeping. And so on. But now we're being encouraged to report anything and everything that anyone could concievably have done wrong.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I want to preface this by saying I am largely either neutral or in favour of most of the things that have been put in place in general (I appreciate
However this idea of treating students differently is mad.
I live in Bristol, a city with a pretty large student population that by and large lives within the city among the rest of us. Yes there are areas that have more students than others, but it isn't like all the students are on a campus. So in that case, why should restrictions on things like pubs and travel be put on students but not the rest of us? It makes no sense at all.

I don't really have any problem at this point with restrictions on social gatherings. My mental health has and will take a hit from it, but these are unprecedented times, and I can still have contact over technological means and at a 2 metre distance, if I so desire. However, if the case numbers fall to negligible levels and the restrictions haven't been removed, then I will be angry.

What I do have a problem with is the vigilante culture that is being encouraged. There is no way that people should be encouraged to dob in their mates for fines of thousands. That's just disgusting. And that societal shift in culture is going to be much harder to reverse. Similarly I'm sure lots of places are considering getting CCTV fitted or hiring more security guards; that won't go away.

I don't tend to report crimes that don't affect me. I'll report illegal parking, but only if it obstructs me. I'll report noise nuisances, but only if they prevent me from sleeping. And so on. But now we're being encouraged to report anything and everything that anyone could concievably have done wrong.

I think there is a massive "it depends" on that though - at least for me.
I kind of agree if a friend has 6 people over instead of 5 (so you get 7 people indoors instead of 6) then reporting it is absolutely insane.
But if a neighbour has a house party with 50+ people atm, I can certainly see the logic in reporting it.

In terms of CCTV - people have to also pay attention to the fact it can do some good. When I got violently assaulted on Xmas eve a few years ago, the only reason the guy was arrested and imprisoned was because of the CCTV trail from a kebab shop, a club and a petrol station. Without those - he would have not been caught.

 

[Ianno87]

Sorry - not a student here but I've had six months of Zoom based everything. Zoom based work, Zoom based pub quizzes, Zoom based birthday parties.

Why on earth would someone go to university to spend all day using Zoom?

The courses would not be pretty much as normal.

I may be wrong but I believe @Huntergreed has previously mentioned studying music? If this is the case I'm not sure how that would work over Zoom. The same applies to all manner of practical subjects.

I did a Maths degree (almost 9-to-5 lecture-based), and absoultely no way could you engage with the content of the lecture or the enthusiasm of the lecturer for hours on end every day if done on Zoom.

 

[MDB1images]

If Communist China had implemented this many of the 'politicians' would have been rightly condemned such draconian action.

I think the young people of the UK have been brilliant throughout this, I think a few 'politicians' have forgot about what it was like to be a Teenager/young adult and just how many things that mould you for life have been missed by our young due to them helping control this virus.

 

[Huntergreed]

Just got another email from my accommodation through, now saying that all communal areas are closed (which I understand), but the bit I really didn't expect or agree with is that they are saying we should not be leaving our flat/household area unless it's for essential reasons (exercise/shopping) until Monday morning at 05:00. Is this in the guidance?

Needless to say, I have a weekend of bashing booked down in the more sensible country of England, so I shall be politely ignoring this part of the guidance.

 

[DelayRepay]

Absolutely ludicrous quote from an 'expert' today. Any vestige of sanity is quickly swirling down the drain. 2/3rds of students (1.6 million people) should be prevented from going to university and instead spend their time helping out here and there with 'youth projects' 'while the pandemic is dealt with.' When will that be again, please? Can I ask Dr Ashton familiarise himself with the concept of cost-benefit analysis instead of desperately trying to prevent any covid, ever?

A quick Google search shows that Prof. Ashton has worked at several universities. I wonder if he would be making this suggestion if he still worked at a University, and if so would he be happy to only receive a third of his salary, reflecting the significant drop in the university's income?

But, it's worse. Assuming most uni courses are three years, to reduce numbers by two thirds you would need to have no 2020 intake, and somehow 'suspend' some of the second/third year students.

Assuming this is all over in 12 months, how will the universities cope with a double intake of undergraduates next year? And if it's not over by September 2021, how will they cope with a triple intake in 2022?

This suggestion makes that MP who suggested we wear masks and drink through straws in pubs look quite bright.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2020 ==

Just got another email from my accommodation through, now saying that all communal areas are closed (which I understand), but the bit I really didn't expect or agree with is that they are saying we should not be leaving our flat/household area unless it's for essential reasons (exercise/shopping) until Monday morning at 05:00. Is this in the guidance?

What do they mean by communal areas? Are these things like common rooms? I would be tempted to reply asking how they intend to calculate the rent rebate to reflect the loss of amenity for two days.