Reduction in social gatherings.

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps the government will increase the permitted size of gatherings a week before Christmas allow people to celebrate Christmas somewhat normally. Boris can then portray himself as the PM who saved Christmas and it may help distract the public from any no deal Brexit.

I'd expect that yes.

Hancock isn't going to have a say in it, certainly not in my family.

That would probably depend on how heavy handed the enforcement is.

A slight aside - but the author of the 'hammer and dance' paper, one Tomas Pueyo, is (entirely coincidentally I'm sure) 'VP of growth' for an online education platform, that has done *very well indeed* as a result of ongoing lockdowns and the panic over returning to schools.

He also comes across as very arrogant (which is probably needed for that sort of role) so I wouldn't say he was my favourite person, but in terms of epidemiology (even though he isn't an epidemiologist) he really does seem to know his stuff - far better than anyone in the UK Government, it seems, the likes of Whitty included.

 

[joncombe]

Hancock seems to have landed himself in a bit of trouble over last night's announcement :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-54084834

Good. I'm glad to see more anger over all these changes being done as an emergency so there is no debate in parliament.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good. I'm glad to see more anger over all these changes being done as an emergency so there is no debate in parliament.

It was probably necessary at the start but it isn't now, so I don't see why Monday's changes couldn't have had at least one emergency debate.

 

[trebor79]

I really can't work out the game plan here. Hancock also lied on Monday in his various media interviews about there having been a teapot increase in deaths in France and Spain. It's just not true.
Why aren't the media challenging thing like this?

 

[DB]

It was probably necessary at the start but it isn't now, so I don't see why Monday's changes couldn't have had at least one emergency debate.

Same applies to the mask law - that could and should have been debated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same applies to the mask law - that could and should have been debated.

Agreed. Just because I support masks (though that support is waning as the evidence appears to be showing them to have little or no effect) doesn't mean I don't think it should have been through Parliamentary debate.

I'm quite angry at how Bozza has repeatedly circumvented Parliament over this and Brexit; we really need a tightening of our constitution to prevent this in future (and equally more agile processes and electronic voting, so Parliament can be properly consulted quickly rather than over several weeks).

 

[Bantamzen]

That would probably depend on how heavy handed the enforcement is.

If they are going to enforce it to tens of thousands of households, then they are going to need to call in NATO, the UN, ISIS....

 

[Steveoh]

If they are going to enforce it to tens of thousands of households, then they are going to need to call in NATO, the UN, ISIS....

You'll have a few examples made por encourage les autres.

 

[WelshBluebird]

What is it with this government announcing things late in the evening? They seem to be doing it all of the time!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Hancock seems to have landed himself in a bit of trouble over last night's announcement :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-54084834

Des Swayne is my MP, and we have corresponded over the mask issue. He and I disagree massively on Brexit, but when it comes to this we are in complete agreement.

If MP''s / Parliament are proving so unnecessary throughout this crisis, perhaps we need about, say, 648 less of them in future. Quite a financial saving there.

 

[Yew]

What is it with this government announcing things late in the evening? They seem to be doing it all of the time!

Well you'd want a pint or two to steady the nerves before writing that tweet!


More seriously, I think it's so that the press can get it, but they don't have to immediately defend it, and see how it lands so that they can backtrack with "Oh sorry, we meant to say we were considering X" if necessary.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I wouldn't be surprised if Matt Hancock is gone from his current role before the end of the year. He has the look of a broken man with a thankless job who is dealing with an impossible situation - unfortunately he has to pander around Boris which invariably means he seems incapable of making the right decisions. Either he will quit or he will be replaced if the present situation does not improve.

CJ

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I wouldn't be surprised if Matt Hancock is gone from his current role before the end of the year. He has the look of a broken man with a thankless job who is dealing with an impossible situation - unfortunately he has to pander around Boris which invariably means he seems incapable of making the right decisions. Either he will quit or he will be replaced if the present situation does not improve.

CJ

One can only hope so.

In the name of god go, and go quickly.

No-one forced him to accept the job. I'm sure he was quite chuffed when he got the ministerial position but without expecting to have to actually deal with big problems.
Nothing prevents him leaving the job. I'm sure someone has a mate who can be given a seat in the Lords to enable them to become the new minister.
It's only a thankless job because (collectively) they've made such a complete mess of everything. Shilly-shallying, flip-flopping, pandering to the loudest voices.

 

[greyman42]

Same applies to the mask law - that could and should have been debated.

A lot of the public meekly bowed down to the mask law so it gives the government encouragement that they can do the same with other dubious laws.

 

[trebor79]

At least they've gone for this rather than enforcing yet more mask wearing upon us like France and Spain have done.
Although I expect the press will push a mask agenda at the conference.

 

[DB]

At least they've gone for this rather than enforcing yet more mask wearing upon us like France and Spain have done.
Although I expect the press will push a mask agenda at the conference.

It's about time the press started to ask for this 'growing evidence' that was cited when masks in shops were mandates (which have of course had no measurable impact).

Perhaps the Telegraph might eventually get round to asking this question? They seem to have begun to move away from the paranoia.

 

[bramling]

I wouldn't be surprised if Matt Hancock is gone from his current role before the end of the year. He has the look of a broken man with a thankless job who is dealing with an impossible situation - unfortunately he has to pander around Boris which invariably means he seems incapable of making the right decisions. Either he will quit or he will be replaced if the present situation does not improve.

CJ

Hancock is the obvious scapegoat, and he knows it.

Besides that he’s hopelessly out of his depth, though he has countered that a little by clearly putting a massive amount of effort in. I suspect in the early stages that was on the basis of personal ambition - get this right and it’s a guaranteed launch pad to bigger things - but as time has gone on he knows he’s never going to come out of this looking good.

I’ve more sympathy for Hancock than Boris, though this may change if we see much more of the inflammatory blame game aired out loud.

Boris knows he’s personally finished as a result of all this, to me that seems very evident from his persona now, which is increasingly weak and defensive. Today’s PMQ’s was a man on the rack, and the one before that was a car-crash. Boris’s game is now damage limitation - how can he walk away with some element of positivity still intact?

 

[greyman42]

Hancock is the obvious scapegoat, and he knows it.

Besides that he’s hopelessly out of his depth, though he has countered that a little by clearly putting a massive amount of effort in. I suspect in the early stages that was on the basis of personal ambition - get this right and it’s a guaranteed launch pad to bigger things - but as time has gone on he knows he’s never going to come out of this looking good.

I’ve more sympathy for Hancock than Boris, though this may change if we see much more of the inflammatory blame game aired out loud.

Boris knows he’s personally finished as a result of all this, to me that seems very evident from his persona now, which is increasingly weak and defensive. Today’s PMQ’s was a man on the rack, and the one before that was a car-crash. Boris’s game is now damage limitation - how can he walk away with some element of positivity still intact?

I think Boris's only hope is a massive slice of luck, such as a vaccine coming along, sooner rather than later. Otherwise i think he will be gone citing ill health.

 

[Smidster]

At least they've gone for this rather than enforcing yet more mask wearing upon us like France and Spain have done.
Although I expect the press will push a mask agenda at the conference.

I find this attitude confusing.

You would rather be stopped from doing something entirely rather than be allowed to do it but have to wear a mask?

I accept I am lucky that wearing a mask really doesn't bother me but I would happily trade having a mask for actually being able to do more things.

 

[Yew]

"Everyone has heard of six before" - B. Johnson, 2020

Truly inspirational content from our Prime Minister.

 

[43066]

Though a different level of suppression than we are going for - it would involve monitoring hospital admissions and ventilator use and holding that to say 75% of capacity, not aiming to suppress to "zero COVID".

This is the point isn’t it. What level of suppression *are* they going for?!

We should just accept people dying in hospital corridors in large numbers?

We are going to have to accept large numbers of deaths whatever happens. That’s the nature of a pandemic.

When push comes to shove I’d rather people at the end of their natural lives were dying of Covid than much younger people were dying of cancer, heart disease etc. where treatments have been cancelled as a result of lockdown/distancing restrictions, and of course suicides caused by the effects of isolation etc.

Hancock seems to be suggesting they're trying to get cases down so that can be allowed - I suppose it's a fairly rough hammer and dance approach.

Trouble is “hammer and dance” *might* have made sense at the beginning to buy time, when it wasn’t really understood what the long term implications of the virus were, but it doesn’t really offer an exit strategy.

If opening up even modestly causes rapid growth in cases then eventually we are going to have to choose between strangling the economy or accepting more spread.

 

[bramling]

I think Boris's only hope is a massive slice of luck, such as a vaccine coming along, sooner rather than later. Otherwise i think he will be gone citing ill health.

Even if a vaccine comes he’s still going to be lumbered with the economic consequences. I suppose he could just about get round that by finding a load of hidden tax rises (I mean things which people don’t directly notice, but how far can he get with that, who knows?.

Completely agree I think there’s more than a grain of truth to the resign on the basis of ill health rumours.

 

[adc82140]

The fact that the PM of Japan has resigned on the grounds of illness will help. It means there's precedent.

 

[43066]

I think Boris's only hope is a massive slice of luck, such as a vaccine coming along, sooner rather than later. Otherwise i think he will be gone citing ill health.

Even if a vaccine comes he’s still going to be lumbered with the economic consequences. I suppose he could just about get round that by finding a load of hidden tax rises (I mean things which people don’t directly notice, but how far can he get with that, who knows?.

Completely agree I think there’s more than a grain of truth to the resign on the basis of ill health rumours.

Yes the “buying time” strategy only really works if there’s a definite end in sight - ie herd immunity; mutation of the virus; an effective treatment or vaccine.

It’s fairly clear the government has chosen not to pursue the first, and believes the second isn’t happening, so perhaps they know more about the progress of the Oxford vaccine then they’re letting on (although today’s news re the trial being paused didn’t make for happy reading)...

 

[takno]

The fact that the PM of Japan has resigned on the grounds of illness will help. It means there's precedent.

I'd have thought the fact that Churchill did it would be a more appealing precedent for Boris.

 

[trebor79]

I find this attitude confusing.

You would rather be stopped from doing something entirely rather than be allowed to do it but have to wear a mask?

I accept I am lucky that wearing a mask really doesn't bother me but I would happily trade having a mask for actually being able to do more things.

Yes. Because I don't believe that masks help in anyway.
I'd rather be told to stay away from people for a period of time, because that demonstrably does work, than be forced to wear uncomfortable and ineffective fashion apparel on my face.

 

[adc82140]

I'd have thought the fact that Churchill did it would be a more appealing precedent for Boris.

Churchill had done something meaningful before he resigned!

 

[takno]

I find this attitude confusing.

You would rather be stopped from doing something entirely rather than be allowed to do it but have to wear a mask?

I accept I am lucky that wearing a mask really doesn't bother me but I would happily trade having a mask for actually being able to do more things.

Same difference. I haven't been in a shop or on public transport since July. The main difference is that when nobody can do it it's regarded as an obvious problem, whereas when they've filtered down to just people who can't wear masks it becomes "really not that bad" and can "continue indefinitely". The reinforcing bullying on social media has also meant that I've had to dump over half of my online contacts as well, which is a bit upsetting.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Is there a separate thread discussing the media reports about a National 10pm curfew being allegedly mulled by government?​

 

[Huntergreed]

I see Chris “Dim” Whitty has said that it’s likely the “rule of six” will be a long term requirement, rather than just a few weeks. I think it’s clear the aim is to keep this place and lift it in time for Christmas.