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Fare evasion help!!!!!

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Helloxdakaja

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i think I left Victoria around 2 ish, and yes I started from there , no I didn’t Realise I was on the wrong train until after that stop
When I arrived at picadilly I was trying to get out the station
I was fed up at this point and just gonna get an Uber from there
The train from Warrington I was trying to go back to mcr Victoria I didn’t even realise it stopped at oxford road?
It was downstairs in picadilly and yes he seen me buying a new ticket
I don’t know why I didn’t show him, I thought it would be invalid as I’d already basically got the train?
This is all my fault
I have no brain
Do the mcr picadilly staff wear body cams? I really hope not.
 
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SuspectUsual

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Another thing you may wish to include in your reply to Northern - what did you do when you got off at Warrington? Did you stay on the station and get the first train back? If you can demonstrate this, including the times of the trains you caught (if you can’t remember, maybe you could estimate or check online and work out the trains you got) it will help back up your explanation that you travelled to Warrington by mistake. If you left the station and/or didn’t get the first train back to Manchester, it would likely look to Northern like you were in Warrington on purpose
 

Helloxdakaja

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Yes I got the first train back, but how do I prove it when I didn’t buy a ticket to go back , if that makes sense
But yes I’ll try estimate times and things ect
I think the only think I’m going to get in trouble for is the abuse bit, and then the rail way bye law offence. For not getting a ticket from Warrington back to Manchester Victoria
Would be so harsh of them to prosecute me for an honest mistake :( however I shouldn’t have been abusive
 

SuspectUsual

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Yes I got the first train back, but how do I prove it when I didn’t buy a ticket to go back

By knowing the time you bought your ticket at Victoria (bank or credit card statement if you used a card) and the time you were nabbed by the RPI at Piccadilly, which should be on the report. That info plus the timetable should help you work it out and prove it
 

Helloxdakaja

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I can’t get my bank statement but would using tickets and timetables help instead?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If they were to do an investigation on me how would they do it?
 

30907

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i think I left Victoria around 2 ish, and yes I started from there ,
The train from Warrington I was trying to go back to mcr Victoria I didn’t even realise it stopped at oxford road?
Thanks, and sorry for slow reply.

The fact that the inspector on the platform saw you trying to buy a ticket would have made them suspicious.

SteveM70 has asked important questions - your original ticket should show the time you bought it (I assume you used an app - which one?) Please check.

You say you caught the first train back from Warrington - how long were you at Warrington, and did you speak to any member of staff there?

Now to be a bit provocative:
You bought a ticket from Victoria to go to Oxford Road without checking whether there was a train anytime soon.
You got on a random train without checking where it was going.
You sat on it for 20min while it went out into the country but didn't notice you had left Manchester until after it stopped again.
You got off at Warrington and boarded another train without checking where it was going.

I am putting this rather bluntly because some people (like the person at Northern who reads your explanation!) might think this doesn't add up.

Hope this all gets resolved, anyway.

BTW I don't think going to Warrington and back is a big issue itself - it's the whole sequence of events.
 

skyhigh

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Just a thought- if the inspector saw you buying the ticket, did they ask where you'd come from? If they did and you said 'Warrington', that might help explain how things started off down the path they did.
 

Helloxdakaja

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I never said Warrington I said oxford I don’t know why!
:/ but I’m gonna say I thought he asked where I’m going so I said oxford road
 

Fawkes Cat

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Something that we haven't touched on is how much you should worry about a conviction.

If you are convicted (that is, you go to court, and either you plead guilty or you are found guilty) then you will receive a punishment. In practical terms, that punishment will be paying over some money, and will be made up of the fine, the other side's costs, a 'victim surcharge' (a payment towards the costs of the court) and 'compensation' to the other side (the train fare that should have been paid). I can't tell you how much these will add up to, but in a recent thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-at-magistrates-court-without-knowing.208014/) the total was £680. Most people seemed to think that that was at the high end of what could be charged.

In the original post, you told us that a lawyer would charge you £750 to write to the court to try and stop the matter going to court. I don't know how effective lawyers' letters are in stopping a case going to court, but it looks as if it might actually be cheaper to go to court and pay the fine.

But if you do go to court and lose you would have a 'criminal record'. Let's look at what that means.

The consequences can be a little bit different depending on whether you are convicted under the Regulation of the Railways Act ('RoRA'), or under the railway byelaws. This is because the law says that for most (not all, but most) purposes convictions become 'spent' after a while. As I understand it, a conviction under RoRA becomes spent after a year. There's some debate on this forum over when a byelaw conviction becomes spent: some people think that it becomes spent immediately, while other people think that it may not be spent for a year. Either way, it's no longer than a year.

What does this mean? In practice, if you're applying for a job, or for anything like a job (maybe a college course, or being a volunteer) then while the conviction isn't spent, if they ask you about whether you have any convictions then you have to tell them. But just because you have a conviction, that doesn't mean that they will turn you down. The conviction means that you made a mistake. Most probably, you have learnt from your mistake and won't do it again. Things might be different if you have lots of convictions or if you lie about having a conviction, as that would suggest that you don't care about following the law - but one conviction for not having the right railway ticket won't always be a problem.

There are a couple of exceptions to what I've just said, and they can overlap:
- there are some jobs where an employer will want to know that an employee is absolutely to be trusted. These include things where you will be handling money (so jobs in banks and shops and so on) or when someone vulnerable depends entirely on you (this could mean things like working in someone's house as a carer). In these cases, the employer would have a reason for not taking on someone who had even one conviction.
- and there are some jobs where convictions do not become spent - you always have to tell the employer about a conviction, however old. These include medical jobs and some jobs in the civil service. But again, just because you have to tell an employer about a conviction, that doesn't automatically mean that they won't take you on.

In short, a conviction for fare evasion isn't the end of the world. People carry on with their lives despite having a conviction. So even if you do end up convicted, life can carry on.
 

WesternLancer

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So I got the train from Manchester Victoria to oxford road, ended up getting the WRONG train and stopped at Warrington. Because I got the wrong train I was kind of lost and decided to get a train and go back to Manchester Victoria from Warrington .

I never got a ticket cquse I got the wrong train and didn’t think I needed to ? Anyways so on the way back to Manchester Victoria I accidentally stopped at mcr Piccadilly instead thinking its Victoria!!

just before going to the barriers I bought a ticket from mcr Victoria to oxford road , (the wrong one) !!!! And the ticket inspector saw me do that . And thought I was trying to dodgy a fare for a longer journey when I really wasn’t .
Anyways he was very rude to me and as a result I was rude bavk and was ‘abusive’ apparently , he took my details didn’t even ask where I’d come from . And told me I’m going to court he was so awful. And I’ve just got a letter asking to explain what happend from nothern rail.
I rang up the prosecution and they said it will probably go to court as I was being abusive. But I didn’t actually dodge a fare though did I ???

ive contacted a lawyer and they said I need to wait for a response. Then if they decide to prosecute I could pay £750 to the lawyers to write a letter of representations for me that could keep it out of court.
Has anyone been through this before?? What letter comes after I explain my side of the story? Will it be a court summon? Or a hearing? What’s the difference and do I need to be present
What you need to do is set out in post #11. Focus on that at this stage, and post a draft for comment as I think that would help you say the best thing.

Reading the thread you are posing a lot of 'what if's' (and I understand why, you will be anxious) but they are bridges to cross when it comes to them.

I guess it is reasonable that you bought another ticket to Oxford Road from Piccadily if you thought you had 'wasted' your original ticket by getting on the wrong train. That would be a reasonable explanation I suppose, given that you didn't seem to seek any staff advice when you realised you had got on the wrong train (eg from the guard of said train or from staff at warrington when you arrived there).

Your attitude to the member of staff concerned may well have provoked him to go down the refer for prosecution type route, but he may have done that anyway. It is an offence (think about any job you have done, or your family do, and if you have been abused by a customer and ask yourself if you think that is just acceptable or if your employer should do anything about it to protect you, for example) - but if it came to that I strongly suspect it would be subject to a separate prosecution, it probably would not be mixed up with an attempt to prosecute you for a ticketing offence.

I suspect that ultimately getting on the wrong train without a ticket for it could be an offence, but it happens often and staff must be familiar with dealing with it. A simple explanation about doing that is the option you now have to set out.
 

Helloxdakaja

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The job I wanna do requires an enhanced DBS check I don’t even feel like finishing uni any more because what’s the point if I’m convicted :( .
no I definitely don’t think I’ll be convicted for RoRA because I have the tickets to prove my journey .
As for the abuse bit, could I still get convicted ? How would that work ? Would I get a criminal record for that. I think that’s the only thing that’s going to hurt me
And on top of it I wasn’t even being abusive , the inspector literally did anything in his power to get me in trouble I was only saying things like what the F*** to myself! Not to the inspector
 

6Gman

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i think I left Victoria around 2 ish, and yes I started from there , no I didn’t Realise I was on the wrong train until after that stop

There does not appear to be a Victoria - Warrington service at that time of day (assuming travel was on a recent weekday).

I think you really need to get your story worked up in detail if it's to be credible.
 

6Gman

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I got off at Warrington bank quay then went to Warrington central

I think the investigation team are going to be asking the following questions:

Why did you not approach staff to seek advice:

a) on the first train once you realised you were heading for Warrington
b) at Warrington Bank Quay - a staffed station
c) at Warrington Central - another staffed station
d) on the second train

They might also ask why you would transfer from one Warrington station to the other.
 

Darandio

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I went to Warrington central because there were no more trains to Victoria from Warrington bank quay that day

Then I think you need to be very careful with what you say. Much of your defence on page one was that you aren't from the area and were therefore unfamiliar. Yet you realised and managed to move between Warrington Central and Bank Quay because you were aware there were no trains.

They will undoubtedly be thinking the same thing if this all forms part of your story.
 

Helloxdakaja

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I’m not from around there I had to follow the map wnd on the train app it was telling me to walk to Warrington central that’s why I did that.
 

Darandio

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I’m not from around there I had to follow the map wnd on the train app it was telling me to walk to Warrington central that’s why I did that.

But you couldn't use the same device to board the correct train in the first place or differentiate between major stations in Manchester?

I'm not intentionally being harsh here but these are potentially questions they will raise, it will all sound very fishy to them.
 

Helloxdakaja

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I know that was my mistake in the first place. that I got the wrong the train
Also do you know how long they’ll take to reply?
And if they decide to take it further what will my next letter say?
 

6Gman

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I went to Warrington central because there were no more trains to Victoria from Warrington bank quay that day

But weren't you trying to get to Oxford Road?

Incidentally Open Train Times (and I don't know whether that source is 100% accurate) shows the following relevant departures from Victoria around 2pm on Friday 14th:

1307 Bank Quay
1323 Warrington Central
1338 Oxford Road
1424 Warrington Central
1439 Oxford Road
1506 Bank Quay

If the above is correct you must see that "I was trying to catch a train to Oxford Road around 2pm but ended up at Warrington Bank Quay" looks a bit shaky?
 

John R

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I think it's one thing to realise you got on the wrong train and double back at the first opportunity. To leave the station you arrive at, go to another one, both staffed, not seek help as to what to do, and not buy a ticket for the journey back is to my mind stretching credibility beyond what is reasonably acceptable. I suspect the investigators will feel the same way, particularly if you were aggressive when approached.
 

mmh

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I think the investigation team are going to be asking the following questions:

Why did you not approach staff to seek advice:

a) on the first train once you realised you were heading for Warrington
b) at Warrington Bank Quay - a staffed station
c) at Warrington Central - another staffed station
d) on the second train

They might also ask why you would transfer from one Warrington station to the other.
Then I think you need to be very careful with what you say. Much of your defence on page one was that you aren't from the area and were therefore unfamiliar. Yet you realised and managed to move between Warrington Central and Bank Quay because you were aware there were no trains.

They will undoubtedly be thinking the same thing if this all forms part of your story.

You'd transfer between the Warrington stations when you discovered the next train to Manchester was from the other one, and that there was a two hour wait at the one you were at. Staff would tell you this if asked - transferring between the two stations is not uncommon, and the Bank Quay route is running a much reduced timetable at the moment.

At the time of the day the OP was travelling there is a relatively rare direct train to Piccadilly from Warrington Central, most terminate at Oxford Road. The explanation does fit the timetable.

Or without speaking to staff the Internet would tell you the same:

I’m not from around there I had to follow the map wnd on the train app it was telling me to walk to Warrington central that’s why I did that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

But weren't you trying to get to Oxford Road?

Incidentally Open Train Times (and I don't know whether that source is 100% accurate) shows the following relevant departures from Victoria around 2pm on Friday 14th:

1307 Bank Quay
1323 Warrington Central
1338 Oxford Road
1424 Warrington Central
1439 Oxford Road
1506 Bank Quay

If the above is correct you must see that "I was trying to catch a train to Oxford Road around 2pm but ended up at Warrington Bank Quay" looks a bit shaky?

If you are searching for intent, possibly. I think it's worth pointing out though that the OP has come here for advice, not to have their honesty questioned. The timetable does match with the events described, and having found yourself in Warrington accidentally at that time walking between the stations is what would happen.
 
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WesternLancer

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I think those of us who may be older posters (older than age 20ish etc) do need to appreciate that it is quite realistic for a 20 year old to consult nothing other than their phone when wanting to get back to starting point, wanting to get from one station to another etc etc.

Sadly the prosecution department may also not fully appreciate that!

To the OP - I think you need to get started on a clear story that you are going to respond to and let people comment on that to help you provide a clear statement of what happened.

can you use any record of the orig ticket purchase for example to get your times and story as accurate as possible (eg you have recently recalled that it was not 2pm but 1pm for example), if say you did that on your phone and there is a record of it payment wise with time and date. That will help.

you should start by saying along these lines

soon after mid day on x date I wished to travel by train from Manchester Victoria to Manchester Oxford Road. I bought a ticket using my phone (or whatever) at xx.xx hours and I have a record of this transaction (screen shot attached).

I boarded a train but subsequently realised that it did not stop at Oxford Road and I was unsure what to do. I got off at Warrington Bank Quay intending to return to Victoria to recommence my journey.

On consulting my phone for train times and information I was directed to Warrington Central of the next train back to Manchester. This took me to Manchester Piccadily where I arrived at about xx.xx hours.

I then thought I should buy a new ticket to start my journey again, and it was at this point that I was questioned by a member of staff who did not appear to believe my story. This was frustrating and I lost my temper somewhat, and I should apologise for that.

At no time did I intend to travel without a ticket, it is simply that I ended up on the wrong train and needed to correct my mistake.

I am not familiar with the Manchester area or by travelling by train in the area, which is no doubt part of the reason for me getting on the wrong train to start with.

etc etc
 
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John R

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If you are searching for intent, possibly. I think it's worth pointing out though that the OP has come here for advice, not to have their honesty questioned.
That is very true, but if several of us are clearly concerned that the story doesn't ring true, it's no bad thing to tell the OP poster that, as I am sure the investigators will likely think the same way. I'd suggest that walking onto a different station and boarding a train without any discussion with station staff (at either station) about the position they are in would, if I were an investigator, remove any thought in my mind that the story was genuine. And if I thought I was not hearing the truth then I would not be inclined to adopt a more lenient approach in the way I might if I thought it was a genuine mistake, or if someone came clean with the true position and expressed remorse.
 

mmh

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That is very true, but if several of us are clearly concerned that the story doesn't ring true, it's no bad thing to tell the OP poster that, as I am sure the investigators will likely think the same way. I'd suggest that walking onto a different station and boarding a train without any discussion with station staff (at either station) about the position they are in would, if I were an investigator, remove any thought in my mind that the story was genuine. And if I thought I was not hearing the truth then I would not be inclined to adopt a more lenient approach in the way I might if I thought it was a genuine mistake, or if someone came clean with the true position and expressed remorse.

I disagree. It's a bad thing for multiple reasons. One is that a trivial amount of timetable research validates the poster's description of the timescale of events. A more important one is that this section of the forum is for advice, not opinion or supposition. What helps is informed, non-judgemental and unemotional advice, what doesn't is questioning someone's honesty, remorse or morality.
 
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