UK face coverings discussion

[yorkie]

A lot of people seem to think that a face mask over the chin is sufficient. I have made a point of calling people out for this if they don't look like the sort that would react aggressively to it.

How do you call them out? How would you know if they are covered by an exemption?

Some people who are exempt do make an extra effort to wear one for at least some of the time, even though they are under no compulsion to do so.

 

[island]

Yes, I just looked up that part. It seems to be a case of secondary legislation modifying primary legislation, albeit temporarily - I thought that wasn't allowed?

If I can work up enough energy to research that over the weekend I shall, but don’t count on it

 

[bramling]

That's a fair point. When I've addressed people about it, I've done so in a measured way to remind them rather than trying to act as if I'm judge, jury and executioner. I've even forgotten to apply my own mask a couple of times, and if someone else points to theirs to remind me, I appreciate the reminder. Wearing masks isn't something the British public are used to, so it's understandable that we might have the odd lapse. Not everything needs to be a confrontation, and that's how I've been approaching these interactions. If someone takes exception and decides to lamp me one, I'll take that as it comes to be quite honest.

I can’t help but find it a little irrational that you’re prepared to take the risk of being lamped simply over someone else’s mask habits.

Furthermore, if it does turn nasty then the staff (be they railway staff or shop staff) aren’t going to be thanking you for it, especially if they have to get involved to break it up.

The NHS won’t thank you either should you need their services to stitch you back together.

 

[43066]

If someone takes exception and decides to lamp me one, I'll take that as it comes to be quite honest.

Is it really worth it? You might easily end up in casualty with a broken nose, or similar.

In the nicest possible way, I’d urge you to focus on what you’re doing, and let other people worry about what they’re doing.

I can’t help but find it a little irrational that you’re prepared to take the risk of being lamped simply over someone else’s mask habits.

Furthermore, if it does turn nasty then the staff (be they railway staff or shop staff) aren’t going to be thanking you for it, especially if they have to get involved to break it up.

Agreed!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I have no dependants and I don't value my own safety above others, so yes, the risk of being punched is worth it. By the letter of the law, I'd be exempt from wearing a mask due to medical conditions but I wear one anyway because it isn't actually a big deal. Some of the medical exemptions are tenuous to say the least (others aren't so tenuous but that's part of the problem). I've heard people use asthma as an excuse which I'd say is valid, but I've also heard people use autism as an excuse which really shouldn't be (I suffer from both, by the way). I'm not in charge of who is exempt though, so I'm not going around calling out everyone without a mask:- just making sure that those who are taking the p*** know they've been spotted. If they have any sense of shame or any self-awareness they'll either spot their mistake and pull their mask up, or they'll justify not wearing one. As a point of order, if you've gone to the trouble to get a mask but aren't wearing it properly while you breathe your germs all over the bus then any medical justification will be a bit weak. I'll ask you politely to wear the mask properly so it can do its job.

If anyone happens to see me not wearing my mask when I should be, then I implore you to do the same.

 

[DB]

I've also heard people use autism as an excuse which really shouldn't be

And what exactly gives you the right to make that judgement? As with many conditions, it affects different people in different ways, and has different levels of severity.

As a point of order, if you've gone to the trouble to get a mask but aren't wearing it properly while you breathe your germs all over the bus then any medical justification will be a bit weak.

Any medical justification is a bit weak anyway, even when wearing it properly!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

And what exactly gives you the right to make that judgement? As with many conditions, it affects different people in different ways, and has different levels of severity.



Any medical justification is a bit weak anyway, even when wearing it properly!

Because whilst autism makes certain activities difficult, it doesn't actually threaten our health to be uncomfortable for a little while. If anything, being forced out of our comfort zone and seeing that it doesn't cause the sky to fall in will actually help in the long run.

 

[Huntergreed]

I've also heard people use autism as an excuse which really shouldn't be

As someone who cares for a family member with severe autism which would definitely affect their ability to wear a mask, I find this incredibly disappointing to hear and it shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding.

I'm not in charge of who is exempt though, so I'm not going around calling out everyone without a mask:- just making sure that those who are taking the p*** know they've been spotted. If they have any sense of shame or any self-awareness they'll either spot their mistake and pull their mask up, or they'll justify not wearing one. As a point of order, if you've gone to the trouble to get a mask but aren't wearing it properly while you breathe your germs all over the bus then any medical justification will be a bit weak. I'll ask you politely to wear the mask properly so it can do its job.

If anyone happens to see me not wearing my mask when I should be, then I implore you to do the same.

Your attitude towards this is exactly why so many who are genuinely exempt feel excluded from society through no fault of their own. How would you feel if you were unable to do something and you were afraid of being questioned, challenged or even assaulted every time you tried to go shopping or catch public transport just because you can't wear a mask? I implore you, please see beyond the 'people taking the p***' and realise that it's people creating challenging situations like yourself that are, intentionally or otherwise, excluding those with disabilities and medical conditions from our society.

 

[DB]

Because whilst autism makes certain activities difficult, it doesn't actually threaten our health to be uncomfortable for a little while. If anything, being forced out of our comfort zone and seeing that it doesn't cause the sky to fall in will actually help in the long run.

That is not a judgement which you have any right to make for others - you can only make it for yourself.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As someone who cares for a family member with severe autism which would definitely affect their ability to wear a mask, I find this incredibly disappointing to hear and it shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding.


Your attitude towards this is exactly why so many who are genuinely exempt feel excluded from society through no fault of their own. How would you feel if you were unable to do something and you were afraid of being questioned, challenged or even assaulted every time you tried to go shopping or catch public transport just because you can't wear a mask? I implore you, please see beyond the 'people taking the p***' and realise that it's people creating challenging situations like yourself that are, intentionally or otherwise, excluding those with disabilities and medical conditions from our society.

Hang on, on this very thread (where I've certainly put a cat among the pigeons) I've had others justify that I might be assaulted for trying to uphold the rules that we all seem to agree should be observed.

As someone with ASD myself, I don't like to see it being used as an excuse to disregard rules just because nobody in that person's life has taken the time to explain it to them properly.

Anyway, I've said my piece and I've clearly upset some people so I'll leave it there, other than to say that I've not been throwing my weight about and wouldn't justify singling people out for a mistake. As I said upthread, the whole idea of wearing masks is new to most of us, and I actually appreciate the reminders that others give. It is possible to remind people about the "new normal" without being a dick about it.

 

[johnnychips]

And what exactly gives you the right to make that judgement? As with many conditions, (autism) affects different people in different ways, and has different levels of severity.

Any medical justification is a bit weak anyway, even when wearing it properly!

Thank goodness society these days realises that autism takes many forms. A significant minority of autistic people have a heightened reaction to one or more senses. Touch is one of them and, some autistic people will not be able to bear the feel of the mask around their face or over their ears.

 

[DB]

Hang on, on this very thread (where I've certainly put a cat among the pigeons) I've had others justify that I might be assaulted for trying to uphold the rules that we all seem to agree should be observed.

No, we don't all agree. Some of us think they are pointless and couldn't care less if people ignore them. As has already been pointed out, you do not have any authority to "uphold the rules" and frankly should just mind your own business. However, nobody has tried to "justify" that you might be assaulted - I'm sure nobody wants that to happen - they have merely pointed out to you that if you make this sort of officious comment to the wrong person then that might be the outcome.

It is possible to remind people about the "new normal" without being a dick about it.

No it isn't unless you have the authority to do so - which as a member of the public, you don't.

 

[43066]

but I've also heard people use autism as an excuse which really shouldn't be (I suffer from both, by the way).

You’re completely and utterly wrong there.

Autism is a spectrum disorder (as you well know), and wearing a mask would be utterly intolerable for many sufferers. I say that as someone with experience of someone towards the lower end of the spectrum (my brother).

Suffering from autism yourself absolutely does not give you the right to judge others whose experience of living with that condition might be completely different to yours.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The numbers of people I see wearing their mask incorrectly is quite a large percentage, particularly on TfL services (Overground and tube). Of those people, about a fifth are wearing the covering over the mouth only, not over the nose as well.
Masks 'worn' under the chin is very common. Now even the thickest person cannot possibly believe that is doing any good, or complying with the law. It's fairly obvious that those people don't want to wear a covering, so think they can store it on their chin, to pull up in the unlikely event BTP show-up, or for those periods when they get off the train and want to be seen as 'doing their bit'.
The people on social media may give the illusion that there is widespread support for wearing masks. In the real world, however, the chin-wearers tell a different story.
Frankly, I have more respect for someone who outright refuses to wear one, and is visible about it, than the twits who park the mask on their chins.
I also wonder about the efficacy of a mask worn correctly, but resting on a mass of facial hair, as seems to be the fashion amongst a particular age group. Does a mask worn over a beard really fit tightly enough to be of any use?

 

[johnnychips]

Hang on, on this very thread (where I've certainly put a cat among the pigeons) I've had others justify that I might be assaulted for trying to uphold the rules that we all seem to agree should be observed.

I don’t think people are trying to justify that you might be assaulted if you tell people to wear their masks properly etc. I think they are just warning you of a possible consequence.

If you read the rest of the thread, you will find some posters who think the use of the masks is a good idea, some who think they are neutral but reassuring, and some who think it is pointless and a restriction of freedom.

 

[westv]

The people on social media may give the illusion that there is widespread support for wearing masks. In the real world, however, the chin-wearers tell a different story.

Indeed, If there was widespread support there'd be no need for laws to enforce their use.

 

[43066]

I've had others justify that I might be assaulted for trying to uphold the rules that we all seem to agree should be observed.

Nobody has justified you being assaulted. People have pointed out that being assaulted might be a natural consequence of your actions.

 

[PaulMc7]

My Aspergers is considered to be fairly controlled compared to others with it and it affects me massively having anything near my face so I feel for anyone who suffers more severely than I do

 

[BJames]

Hang on, on this very thread (where I've certainly put a cat among the pigeons) I've had others justify that I might be assaulted for trying to uphold the rules that we all seem to agree should be observed.

As someone with ASD myself, I don't like to see it being used as an excuse to disregard rules just because nobody in that person's life has taken the time to explain it to them properly.

Anyway, I've said my piece and I've clearly upset some people so I'll leave it there, other than to say that I've not been throwing my weight about and wouldn't justify singling people out for a mistake. As I said upthread, the whole idea of wearing masks is new to most of us, and I actually appreciate the reminders that others give. It is possible to remind people about the "new normal" without being a dick about it.

I want to come back on this as well - I can't see that anyone has been supporting the idea of you being assaulted - they have however said that you are at higher chance of finding yourself in a potentially unfriendly and unwanted confrontation.

You may appreciate the reminders that others give, but I would suggest that it wouldn't hurt to recognise that not everyone else feels the same way.

As you've got ASD I'm sure you recognise it's a spectrum and as such not everyone feels the same way. As referenced in the post immediately above mine.

 

[johnnychips]

My Aspergers is considered to be fairly controlled compared to others with it and it affects me massively having anything near my face so I feel for anyone who suffers more severely than I do

I hope this is not stopping you from going into shops or going on public transport. If you have enough confidence, all you should need to do if challenged is say “I am exempt”. But otherwise you could just print yourself a card saying “I have autism/Aspergers/a medical condition so I can’t wear a mask”.

 

[DB]

you could just print yourself a card saying “I have autism/Aspergers/a medical condition so I can’t wear a mask”.

But he shouldn't need to - the reason why he can't wear one is really no business of shop staff.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree on certain matters, but I will point out that I've been far more bolshy on this thread than I have in person when discussing the wearing (or not) of masks. With regard to the autism side of things, whilst some people's triggers might make wearing a mask difficult or uncomfortable, every autistic person I've ever met (other than my cousin who is profoundly autistic and unable to function socially in any meaningful way) has understood matters such as hygiene once they've been explained in a way that makes sense to them. Once such things have been explained, for the most part social faux-pas are a much greater source of anxiety than a bit of temporary discomfort (of course your experience may differ).

To be honest the biggest bugbear about the mask thing has been people who remove their mask to make a phone call. Not only does that mean you're releasing a load of droplets of spittle every time you talk, but it is completely unnecessary: I've answered my phone whilst wearing a homemade cloth mask and the mask does not muffle the sound at all.

Again, I've not been going around telling everyone without a mask to cover up. I've occasionally made eye-contact (which doesn't come easy to be fair ) with a "chinmasker", smiled and pointed at my own mask. Without exception, the response has been something along the lines of "oh sh**, sorry!" and a polite laugh.

 

[Scotrail12]

Hardly a pro mask advocate but was on a train home today and around 15 kids with bikes were getting off the train and none of them had a face covering of any sort. None too pleased given that I've been obeying the rules and spent almost 4 hours on trains today. Sure, some may have a valid excuse but I can't imagine all of them did.

 

[NorthOxonian]

But he shouldn't need to - the reason why he can't wear one is really no business of shop staff.

While that is true, it does run the risk of conflict, which clearly you'd want to avoid.

I have noticed that quite a few people have been using the sunflower lanyard or similar, which is a bit more discreet than saying "I have X condition", but is still well recognised by those trying to enforce the rules. Being in a similar position myself (though not so bad as to need to use the exemption), I wouldn't want to say what I had publicly - I'd feel embarrassed and self-conscious about it.

 

[PaulMc7]

I hope this is not stopping you from going into shops or going on public transport. If you have enough confidence, all you should need to do if challenged is say “I am exempt”. But otherwise you could just print yourself a card saying “I have autism/Aspergers/a medical condition so I can’t wear a mask”.

I've got a lanyard anyway but not had to use it just yet. Only time I will need public transport is if an interview comes up anyway so I'm beginning to feel less bothered about the whole thing

Not been in a shop yet either because my girlfriend and sister always need stuff at the same time so it doesn't take the 3 of us to go for it. Been out in public far more though in the last 2/3 weeks and mask wearing has gone off a cliff here

 

[johnnychips]

But he shouldn't need to - the reason why he can't wear one is really no business of shop staff.

No, I absolutely agree with you: but if it makes life easier then carrying a card or wearing a lanyard gives people enough confidence to go out rather than stay in, then they should do that.

 

[43066]

With regard to the autism side of things, whilst some people's triggers might make wearing a mask difficult or uncomfortable, every autistic person I've ever met (other than my cousin who is profoundly autistic and unable to function socially in any meaningful way) has understood matters such as hygiene once they've been explained in a way that makes sense to them. Once such things have been explained, for the most part social faux-pas are a much greater source of anxiety than a bit of temporary discomfort (of course your experience may differ).

What you’re forgetting is that every Autistic person you’ve ever met is not every Autistic person. Being Autistic yourself does not make you a spokesman for all of those who suffer from the condition.

Please stop going around telling people about how to wear masks. It won’t go down well, and you might end up being assaulted.

I’d much rather that didn’t happen to you.

Please, please, stop doing it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What you’re forgetting is that every Autistic person you’ve ever met is not every Autistic person. Being Autistic yourself does not make you a spokesman for all of those who suffer from the condition.

Please stop going around telling people about how to wear masks. It won’t go down well, and you might end up being assaulted.

I’d much rather that didn’t happen to you.

Please, please, stop doing it.

I'll refer you to the final paragraph of my previous post in this thread (#2184)

And yes, I've maybe been a bit careless with my words on this thread. I wasn't intending to nominate myself as the spokesperson for all autistic people so for that I apologise. I've perhaps been getting more wound up by things than I should have been.

 

[alxndr]

To be honest the biggest bugbear about the mask thing has been people who remove their mask to make a phone call. Not only does that mean you're releasing a load of droplets of spittle every time you talk, but it is completely unnecessary: I've answered my phone whilst wearing a homemade cloth mask and the mask does not muffle the sound at all.

I did this the other day. Why? Because when the mask was on half my attention was diverted to the fact that my face was too hot and I wanted to tear the mask off my face. I'm not the best at phonecalls at the best of times, and it was an important one to get correct. I did not want my attention diverted for the duration of the call.

I can handle a phonecall or wearing a mask for a short duration (my tolerance decreases as the temperature rises). I cannot handle both together.

 

[Wolfie]

A recent Flyertalk story about the treatment of an autistic child by Southwest airline over non wearing of a mask, and worse still the associated comments, genuinely shocked and horrified me.

https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/...ring-mask.html?utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=

The family says their three-year-old suffers from autism and sensory processing disorders, which makes it difficult for the son to keep a face covering on. The mother attempted to put a mask on her child, but her son would not keep it on.

The flight attendant then allegedly informed the captain of the flight, who made the same request to the mother. When the toddler would not keep a facemask on, the mother said the captain returned to the gate, telling the aircraft a “non-compliant passenger” was aboard.

“We had to head back to the gate,” the mother told KTRK-TV. “They have an escort take us back to the plane to get all of our luggage off the plane, and then they proceeded to write up my 3-year-old for noncompliance to their policy.”

According to the mother, the incident caused Southwest to refuse the family service. She claims that the mask issue with her autistic son was not an issue when flying out to Midland, Texas to see family – and is now confused as to why the airline is taking a harder-line stance with her family.