UK face coverings discussion

[island]

They must have made a mistake. You know, I previously thought that surgical masks were also known as FFP2s, when in reality they aren't. Looks very confusing!

I have researched the French law on the French government website. They require disposable surgical masks of the type known as EN14683.

 

[Robert]

Could someone on here please clarify the rules on the wearing of face masks at petrol stations. I filled the car up today at a Sainsbury's petrol station in Barnstaple, Devon and when I went to pay, I noticed that the petrol station shop was closed (presumably due to staff shortage) and they were using the payment window which is normally only used late at night. There were four people queing in front of me and I was surprised to see that they were all wearing face masks. You are technically outside when you pay for the petrol in this way as the canopy that covers the petrol pump area ends well clear of the shop. I didn't put a mask on as I didn't see the need (and can't stand the wretched things). Nobody said anything but I was just wondering what the rules are as this particular scenario is not mentioned on the government website.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could someone on here please clarify the rules on the wearing of face masks at petrol stations. I filled the car up today at a Sainsbury's petrol station in Barnstaple, Devon and when I went to pay, I noticed that the petrol station shop was closed (presumably due to staff shortage) and they were using the payment window which is normally only used late at night. There were four people queing in front of me and I was surprised to see that they were all wearing face masks. You are technically outside when you pay for the petrol in this way as the canopy that covers the petrol pump area ends well clear of the shop. I didn't put a mask on as I didn't see the need (and can't stand the wretched things). Nobody said anything but I was just wondering what the rules are as this particular scenario is not mentioned on the government website.

Required inside the shop but not for use at an outside pay window.

I've seen one with a sign asking you to use that if not wearing one (I guess they would get shop items for you if exempt as they usually do when that's the only bit open).

 

[Scrotnig]

Required inside the shop but not for use at an outside pay window.

I've seen one with a sign asking you to use that if not wearing one (I guess they would get shop items for you if exempt as they usually do when that's the only bit open).

Bugger that. I’m not being treated as a second class citizen. My business would go elsewhere.

 

[Robert]

Required inside the shop but not for use at an outside pay window.

OK, thanks for your reply.

 

[birchesgreen]

Bugger that. I’m not being treated as a second class citizen. My business would go elsewhere.

Good luck with that, all gas stations pretty much the same in my experience.

 

[py_megapixel]

I assume "no mask no entry" or any variant thereof which treats wearers of masks preferentially is illegal under the Equality Act if their exemption is a protected characteristic, which it almost always will be? Or is there some loophole which allows it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume "no mask no entry" or any variant thereof which treats wearers of masks preferentially is illegal under the Equality Act if their exemption is a protected characteristic, which it almost always will be? Or is there some loophole which allows it?

I'd have thought the offer to get things for you from the shop would be a reasonable adjustment.

 

[Richard Scott]

I have researched the French law on the French government website. They require disposable surgical masks of the type known as EN14683.

Is that everywhere in France or just aircraft? I know face coverings are mandatory nearly everywhere in France so is it just this type you can have or are cloth ones acceptable?

 

[PaulMc7]

Anyone else noticed people outside smoking while having their face covering on their chin? Noticed it a couple of times now

 

[py_megapixel]

Anyone else noticed people outside smoking while having their face covering on their chin? Noticed it a couple of times now

That's one case where I actually like wearing face coverings - when I have to pass people who are standing in inconsiderate locations to smoke.

 

[PaulMc7]

That's one case where I actually like wearing face coverings - when I have to pass people who are standing in inconsiderate locations to smoke.

Yeah a lot of the pavements where I stay aren't that wide except a few so it's quite hard to pass around people who are smoking especially outside of bus shelters etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's one case where I actually like wearing face coverings - when I have to pass people who are standing in inconsiderate locations to smoke.

They are also good to reduce the effects of the invariably disgusting smell of motorway service station (or Euston) toilets, if requiring the kind of use of the facilities that necessitates a longer stay.

 

[sheff1]

Anyone else noticed people outside smoking while having their face covering on their chin? Noticed it a couple of times now

Yes, seen it from well before masks became compulsory in shops. I got the feeling most 'early' mask wearers thought they were protecting themselves from "the killer virus" but they were perfectly content to fill their lungs with cigarette smoke.

 

[PaulMc7]

Yes, seen it from well before masks became compulsory in shops. I got the feeling most 'early' mask wearers thought they were protecting themselves from "the killer virus" but they were perfectly content to fill their lungs with cigarette smoke.

Yeah it makes absolutely no sense to me really

 

[island]

I assume "no mask no entry" or any variant thereof which treats wearers of masks preferentially is illegal under the Equality Act if their exemption is a protected characteristic, which it almost always will be? Or is there some loophole which allows it?

Depends. There is a carve-out for actions that are “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” and whilst only a court can definitively rule on what that means, it is at least arguable that excluding non-mask wearers from entering a shop is a proportionate means of achieving the legitimate aim of reducing the spread of COVID19, especially if they make a reasonable adjustment such as serving through a hatch or offering click and collect.

Is that everywhere in France or just aircraft? I know face coverings are mandatory nearly everywhere in France so is it just this type you can have or are cloth ones acceptable?

Definitely on public transport. I think in general shops and busy outdoor areas they allow a wider range. But France has put price caps on disposable masks and hand sanitiser so reusable masks are less common there.

 

[DB]

Depends. There is a carve-out for actions that are “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” and whilst only a court can definitively rule on what that means, it is at least arguable that excluding non-mask wearers from entering a shop is a proportionate means of achieving the legitimate aim of reducing the spread of COVID19, especially if they make a reasonable adjustment such as serving through a hatch or offering click and collect.

It's certaily disadvantaging non-mask wearers though. Getting them to fetch something from the shop doesn't work unless the person already knows what is there and specifically what they want. It's not a proportionate adjustment, especially given that the whole reason for masks questionable anyway.

 

[trebor79]

It's certaily disadvantaging non-mask wearers though. Getting them to fetch something from the shop doesn't work unless the person already knows what is there and specifically what they want. It's not a proportionate adjustment, especially given that the whole reason for masks questionable anyway.

Our local hardware shop has done this for everybody since the start of the pandemic. Gazebo and bench set up in the yard at the back, tell them what you want and they go get a few options for you. Works ok.
I believe all shopping was like that once upon a time. I have to say, there is something rather civilised about it.

And no expectation or pressure to wear a silly maske either.

 

[Scrotnig]

Our local hardware shop has done this for everybody since the start of the pandemic. Gazebo and bench set up in the yard at the back, tell them what you want and they go get a few options for you. Works ok.
I believe all shopping was like that once upon a time. I have to say, there is something rather civilised about it.

And no expectation or pressure to wear a silly maske either.

Yes if you do it for everyone that’s great. Do it just for people who cannot wear a mask due to an exemption and it becomes problematic and also unacceptable.

 

[island]

It's certaily disadvantaging non-mask wearers though. Getting them to fetch something from the shop doesn't work unless the person already knows what is there and specifically what they want. It's not a proportionate adjustment, especially given that the whole reason for masks questionable anyway.

Adjustments do not have to be proportionate, they have to be reasonable, and it is legal to disadvantage disabled customers if that is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. What is reasonable, proportionate, and legitimate could only be decided in the courts – I am sure we had this discussion a week or two ago – but I am pretty sure the courts would not have a great deal of trouble finding that the policy being described is all three.

 

[AdamWW]

I believe all shopping was like that once upon a time. I have to say, there is something rather civilised about it.

I think shopping was like that (four candles anyone?)...then someone realised it would reduce costs if you let people go round and pick their own stuff off the shelves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think shopping was like that (four candles anyone?)...then someone realised it would reduce costs if you let people go round and pick their own stuff off the shelves.

And that, by and large, customers preferred that too. It's an unusual genuine example of what business likes to call a "win-win", i.e. you do something that most of your customers like that also saves you money.

Selling online is probably a more modern day example.

 

[westv]

Our work has advised that face coverings will be required in communal areas from 1/9 for all those who might return.

 

[DB]

Adjustments do not have to be proportionate, they have to be reasonable, and it is legal to disadvantage disabled customers if that is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. What is reasonable, proportionate, and legitimate could only be decided in the courts – I am sure we had this discussion a week or two ago – but I am pretty sure the courts would not have a great deal of trouble finding that the policy being described is all three.

I'm by no means convinced that the courts would agree - given that people without masks can go in any other shops this is clear discrimination, and the person concerned probably won't have the virus, probably won't infect anyone even if they do, and there evidence that the mask would make any real difference is very weak.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Yes it is ridiculous.

I would hope that the transport operators could just have enough trust in their passengers' ability to determine whether they are able to wear a face covering or not, rather than recruiting vigilantes (who they aren't even paying) to do this for them.

What sort of person would apply for a job where you are highly likely to get confrontational interactions and not be paid???

 

[Scrotnig]

Our work has advised that face coverings will be required in communal areas from 1/9 for all those who might return.

I guess they are hoping that most people will not return then.

It's one thing wearing a muzzle for a few minutes in a shop, an eight or nine hour shift in a stuffy office is quite something else.

 

[joncombe]

What sort of person would apply for a job where you are highly likely to get confrontational interactions and not be paid???

A mask enthusiast, of which sadly there seem to be quite a lot.

 

[DB]

A mask enthusiast, of which sadly there seem to be quite a lot.

And one who enjoys bossing people around and being self-important - of which there are also rather a lot!

 

[joncombe]

And one who enjoys bossing people around and being self-important - of which there are also rather a lot!

Agreed!

 

[py_megapixel]

A mask enthusiast, of which sadly there seem to be quite a lot.

And one who enjoys bossing people around and being self-important - of which there are also rather a lot!

I'm not sure enthusiast quite describes it properly.

As an example, people join this forum because they are rail enthusiasts, and will advocate for people taking the train when it's an option for them. But they don't take pride in forcing people to use the train.

The people who are widely being described as mask enthusiasts are trying to force people into wearing masks, even where to do so would be severely detrimental. Perhaps a better word would be mask tyrants.