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UK face coverings discussion

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Skimpot flyer

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A police station, probably? Unless they're "exempt"...
Ha! I was just about to ask if face coverings are mandatory in police stations!!
Wouldn’t that be great irony, if a large group of rowdy teenagers get on a train, all drunk, and not complying with the rules on face coverings. Police are called and meet the train at the next station. The teenagers fail the ‘attitude test’ and are taken to the local police station, where they are held in custody less than 2m apart and where such coverings are not mandatory?!
 
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MikeWM

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Vaccination does appear to be the end - they are doing the "hammer and the dance".

They're not though - the point of that was to tweak measures to avoid the healthcare system going over capacity. As I said, Northern Ireland hasn't had one death in almost a month. They're miles away from exceeding capacity, so it makes no sense at all to change anything at this point.
 

Bletchleyite

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Because, as things stand, waiting for a vaccine seems viable to me at least. The Oxford one will likely be ready, if workable, by early next year.

If something happened to suggest a vaccine would definitely not be viable, then we have to think again. But there is no such evidence as things stand.
 

Bletchleyite

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They're not though - the point of that was to tweak measures to avoid the healthcare system going over capacity. As I said, Northern Ireland hasn't had one death in almost a month. They're miles away from exceeding capacity, so it makes no sense at all to change anything at this point.

The "hammer and the dance" is about keeping R near to 1, not about the healthcare system.
 

MikeWM

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The "hammer and the dance" is about keeping R near to 1, not about the healthcare system.

But we all know by now that when cases are as low as they are currently, R is fairly meaningless number.

It only comes into play when the number of cases is fairly large (ie. possibly starting to have an effect on healthcare capacity).

Admittedly I abbreviated my working first time, sorry!
 

Bletchleyite

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But we all know by now that when cases are as low as they are currently, R is fairly meaningless number.

It only comes into play when the number of cases is fairly large (ie. possibly starting to have an effect on healthcare capacity).

Admittedly I abbreviated my working first time, sorry!

True, but you could word it differently - in essence it's about keeping the number of cases level at an acceptable rate.
 

Yew

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Because, as things stand, waiting for a vaccine seems viable to me at least. The Oxford one will likely be ready, if workable, by early next year.

If something happened to suggest a vaccine would definitely not be viable, then we have to think again. But there is no such evidence as things stand.

Betting on the fastest turnaround in history seems like an unwise course of action.
 

DB

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We're not betting on it, we're tiding over. If the evidence changes, it can be revisited.

And meanwhile, untreated cancers and mental health problems proliferate, and some sectors of yhe economy get ever closer to bankruptcy...
 

Richard Scott

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And meanwhile, untreated cancers and mental health problems proliferate, and some sectors of yhe economy get ever closer to bankruptcy...
It doesn't matter how many times we try and explain this some people just don't get it as they're obsessed by this virus thinking it's the worst thing ever and must be eradicated at all costs. As we know this won't happen but doesn't stop them keep aiming for this goal coming up with ever more ludicrous ideas to help 'stop the spread'.
 

bramling

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I would agree that many governments have just gone mad. They've got stuck in a rut and no-one wants to be the first to move and admit need to try and live with virus so as they need to be seen to be doing something they bring in another restriction such as face masks or quarantine, both if which are probably having at best minimal effect on transmission. Not one of them has proposed a plan to get out of this mess bar waiting for a vaccine.

I think it’s partly the case of no one having the balls to do the expectation management a post elsewhere alluded to, which is clearly a problem when many of today’s politicians shape their careers in being populist.

Blair, for all I despise him, I think genuinely did think going into Iraq was the right thing to do, but even there he got it wrong, in that case by trying to find a reason which would sit well with the population rather then being honest that they simply thought getting rid of Saddam was the right thing.

I don’t think Johnson has any coherent strategy, and I think the likes of Whitty and Vallance are probably sufficient exasperated that they’re just letting Boris get on with it now. Harries and Van Tam are of course on the naughty step still over Cummings.

So here we are, other countries are doing it so we’d better do it just in case it works and we get pilloried for not doing it. Forget about the advice from the scientists highlighting risks and potential costs, that’s too much detail and Boris doesn’t do detail.
 

yorkie

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I was arrested by GMP CTU on Tuesday (no masks),....
I'd imagine, given the huge range of exemptions, and the lack of requirement for any documentation evidencing an exemption, that the only people who are arrested are very principled that they should not be required to wear masks; anyone who wanted to get out of it could do so easily.
Because, as things stand, waiting for ..... early next year.
There is no way many people will accept the current restrictions lasting until next year and the economic damage of that would be huge. Who is going to pay to furlough the entire entertainment industry for another 6 months? Sooner or later people will say 'enough is enough'
 

jtuk

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I would agree that many governments have just gone mad. They've got stuck in a rut and no-one wants to be the first to move and admit need to try and live with virus so as they need to be seen to be doing something they bring in another restriction such as face masks or quarantine, both if which are probably having at best minimal effect on transmission. Not one of them has proposed a plan to get out of this mess bar waiting for a vaccine.

Well of course not, that'd amount to political suicide when they've tanked the economy by the largest peacetime amount ever for no reason whatsoever
 

bramling

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We're not betting on it, we're tiding over. If the evidence changes, it can be revisited.

I can just about tolerate that strategy for a little while longer (though how many businesses will fail and how many people will develop mental health problems in the meantime?), having all but written 2020 off, however I am utterly damned if that is happening again from next year onwards.

If that vaccine is not ready in pretty short order, and I mean properly ready not some vague “it’s promising”, then there will *need* to be a rethink as people simply will not tolerate this nonsense much longer. Cohesion is already seriously fraying in places, and that’s just through hot weather and boredom, what do we think the effects will be when large numbers of people have no job?
 

talldave

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The whole mask fiasco is pointless and utter hypocrisy. We’re apparently meant to wear them to protect others. So the BTP without masks tramping through a train looking for non-mask wearers are putting law abiding passengers' health at risk. Maskless guards do the same.

Similarly shop staff are endangering customers.

At least they would be if masks worked......

This is literally about as good an example of half-baked as you could ask for. I refuse to participate.
 

Stigy

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The whole mask fiasco is pointless and utter hypocrisy. We’re apparently meant to wear them to protect others. So the BTP without masks tramping through a train looking for non-mask wearers are putting law abiding passengers' health at risk. Maskless guards do the same.

Similarly shop staff are endangering customers.

At least they would be if masks worked......

This is literally about as good an example of half-baked as you could ask for. I refuse to participate.
I agree. The fact that it’s come about 5 months too late is farcical in itself.

Hang on a minute, BTP on a train?
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Quoted from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hat-would-you-do-if-you-were-in-power.207541/

wearing N95 face masks indoors (that are, btw, WAY more effective than useless cloth homemade masks in my opinion)
Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) should be reserved for the medical staff who actually need them, rather than the general public using them just because they're more effective in their opinion.

I also hope you've been suitably briefed on how to use PPE appropriately, and have somebody on-hand, ready to fit your N95 mask everytime you use it. Otherwise it's useless. :)
 

Skimpot flyer

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I was on a London Overground train yesterday evening. It was almost full, with very few seats unoccupied..I sat where I could, but saw at least half a dozen people nearby with no face covering on, and many others wearing them incorrectly and/or touching them constantly. So I took mine off. Why? Because the evidence they do any good isn't there, and I see no point 'protecting others' (they don't protect the wearer) if they are not doing the same for me. The hot weather and absurdity of the situation got to me and it will be the last time I wear one as they cause me mental distress. I consider myself exempt and will no longer tolerate the madness.
 

furlong

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Because, as things stand, waiting for a vaccine seems viable to me at least. The Oxford one will likely be ready, if workable, by early next year.

If something happened to suggest a vaccine would definitely not be viable, then we have to think again. But there is no such evidence as things stand.

Please don't fall for the simplistic vaccine messaging as well. People respond in different ways to different vaccines. Over the next few years, it seems reasonable to expect several different vaccines to become available, working in various different ways, but the difficulty will be determining which types of people can take which ones - and most importantly, which people should not take particular ones. This sort of thing normally takes years to sort out. Think about it - if you roll out a vaccine too quickly to a huge number of people, some will die (possibly just coincidentally and not really due to the effect of vaccine) and imagine the hysterical media response that would ensue in the current climate if the vaccine "might" be responsible.

Don't discount (a) the amount of immunity likely to be already present in the population (this may need to be inferred from situations where the virus "ought to have" spread to more people than it actually did e.g.households where only one person got it) and (b) the substantial and continuing improvements in our understanding of how best to treat it leading to much improved outcomes.
 
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Yew

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Please don't fall for the simplistic vaccine messaging as well. People respond in different ways to different vaccines. Over the next few years, it seems reasonable to expect several different vaccines to become available, working in various different ways, but the difficulty will be determining which types of people can take which ones - and most importantly, which people should not take particular ones. This sort of thing normally takes years to sort out. Think about it - if you roll out a vaccine too quickly to a huge number of people, some will die (possibly just coincidentally and not really due to the effect of vaccine) and imagine the hysterical media response that would ensue in the current climate if the vaccine "might" be responsible.

Don't discount (a) the amount of immunity likely to be already present in the population (this may need to be inferred from situations where the virus "ought to have" spread to more people than it actually did e.g.households where only one person got it) and (b) the substantial and continuing improvements in our understanding of how best to treat it leading to much improved outcomes.
Indeed, I wonder if a TB jab like immunity test would be useful in the early stages, to detect if someone has an immune response to COVID-19 already
 

Huntergreed

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I notice the Rail Delivery Group tweeted this morning:

1 in 11,000 journeys! Latest research by @RSSB_rail suggests that the risk of COVID-19 infection on trains is very low. The risk gets even lower when everyone wears a face covering so please help us all to #TravelSafelyThisSummer.

(https://twitter.com/raildeliverygrp/status/1292740007342542848?s=21)

The part that concerns me is in bold, there’s no evidence of this, and I genuinely do not believe a risk level of 1 in 11,000 warrants a quite intrusive law to mitigate that risk any further (I believe this is low enough, and shops are likely to be lower than this)
 

DB

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I notice the Rail Delivery Group tweeted this morning:



(https://twitter.com/raildeliverygrp/status/1292740007342542848?s=21)

The part that concerns me is in bold, there’s no evidence of this, and I genuinely do not believe a risk level of 1 in 11,000 warrants a quite intrusive law to mitigate that risk any further (I believe this is low enough, and shops are likely to be lower than this)

It's also probably going to encourage the vigilantes to challenge people.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't believe the statement is untrue at all. The risk will be slightly higher if one person does not because they are exempt. However, it is necessary to make allowances for people who cannot (note: not "don't want to" or "don't like because it's a bit uncomfortable") wear masks in order that they are not closed out of society, just as we have to make reasonable adjustments for a disability even if it costs us money or is otherwise inconvenient.
 

Darandio

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Just had my first experience of 'mask drama' although not quite directly.

I've just been to a charity shop which I volunteer at to pick something up that I left last week. Approaching the little shopping area I noticed a police car in the car park and a couple being spoken to, they were maybe early 60's or so. Went in the charity shop and saw the manageress was quite shaken so I asked what had happened.

Basically what happened was the couple entered the shop and she had simply enquired about their masks, offering to give them disposable ones if they required them. The man had fired back straight away and said they wouldn't be wearing masks because they don't need them and this 'whole bloody virus thing doesn't exist anyway'. She then said that's fine if they have an exemption where he had apparently walked towards her finger jabbing and raising his voice about no exemptions and they just wouldn't be wearing them. She politely asked him to step back as she felt intimidated and this had made him more aggressive so she locked herself in the back room and called the police. I assume they then removed him and started that chat that I witnessed when approaching the shop. Throughout the whole situation his wife (I presume) had just watched on.

I appreciate there are strong views on masks and everyone is welcome to their opinion. But if this is how you behave then you completely deserve to be embarrassingly frogmarched out of the premises by police.
 

Bletchleyite

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They sound like precisely the sort of people who should be in receipt of the fines for non-wearing (as well as potentially assault, I can't quite tell from the description). There was no need for the aggression; even if they were lying "Yes, we're both exempt" would have ended the discussion. They were clearly out to make some kind of point, which means the old "attitude test" was failed.
 

DB

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Just had my first experience of 'mask drama' although not quite directly.

I've just been to a charity shop which I volunteer at to pick something up that I left last week. Approaching the little shopping area I noticed a police car in the car park and a couple being spoken to, they were maybe early 60's or so. Went in the charity shop and saw the manageress was quite shaken so I asked what had happened.

Basically what happened was the couple entered the shop and she had simply enquired about their masks, offering to give them disposable ones if they required them. The man had fired back straight away and said they wouldn't be wearing masks because they don't need them and this 'whole bloody virus thing doesn't exist anyway'. She then said that's fine if they have an exemption where he had apparently walked towards her finger jabbing and raising his voice about no exemptions and they just wouldn't be wearing them. She politely asked him to step back as she felt intimidated and this had made him more aggressive so she locked herself in the back room and called the police. I assume they then removed him and started that chat that I witnessed when approaching the shop. Throughout the whole situation his wife (I presume) had just watched on.

I appreciate there are strong views on masks and everyone is welcome to their opinion. But if this is how you behave then you completely deserve to be embarrassingly frogmarched out of the premises by police.

While that sort of behaviour is certainly completely unacceptable, it's also not really on for shop staff to be asking about masks - it's not their job to enforce it.
 

Journeyman

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They sound like precisely the sort of people who should be in receipt of the fines for non-wearing (as well as potentially assault, I can't quite tell from the description). There was no need for the aggression; even if they were lying "Yes, we're both exempt" would have ended the discussion. They were clearly out to make some kind of point, which means the old "attitude test" was failed.

For once, I completely agree with you.
 
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