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Media Coverage of COVID -19

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45107

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Just wait until you see what happens to everyone eventually.
Yes, everyone dies eventually.
I may be misunderstanding you but do you not think that it is acceptable to take measures to remove the risk of shortening people’s lives or impacting on their health ?
Or do we let viruses run unchecked through society to take out the vulnerable ?
 
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Richard Scott

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Yes, everyone dies eventually.
I may be misunderstanding you but do you not think that it is acceptable to take measures to remove the risk of shortening people’s lives or impacting on their health ?
Or do we let viruses run unchecked through society to take out the vulnerable ?
What choice do we have, lock down forever? Even with measures taken people are dying from it. Not much of a life for anyone at this rate. People really should be given the choice, if they want to self isolate up to them but stop imposing it on everybody. Even though we can go out life is still too restricted.
 

DB

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Yes, everyone dies eventually.
I may be misunderstanding you but do you not think that it is acceptable to take measures to remove the risk of shortening people’s lives or impacting on their health ?
Or do we let viruses run unchecked through society to take out the vulnerable ?

How many times have we been through this?

Proportionate steps would be to protect the care homes and hospitals, and provide a mechanism so that others at particular risk can stay at home if they wish. Other measures could potentially include restricting large gatherings such as football matches and music festivals.

That would put protections in place for the vast majority who may die if they catch it. Any restrictions beyond that risk doing more harm than good.
 

Yew

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Yes, everyone dies eventually.
I may be misunderstanding you but do you not think that it is acceptable to take measures to remove the risk of shortening people’s lives or impacting on their health ?
Or do we let viruses run unchecked through society to take out the vulnerable ?
I think that the sacrifice should be less than the return. In this case, it clearly is not.
 

talldave

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Flu deaths are currently higher than Covid deaths but don't seem to warrant any column inches.
 

carlberry

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Flu deaths are currently higher than Covid deaths but don't seem to warrant any column inches.
And please keep it that way or we'll end up with a 'world beating' track and trace for Flu, seperate issolation rules for Flu and quarantine from countries with large numbers of Flu infections.
The NHS usually tries to push the Flu issue as part of preparing for winter pressures however most people ignore it and the government of the day happily carried on underfunding the response each year.
 

talldave

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And please keep it that way or we'll end up with a 'world beating' track and trace for Flu, seperate issolation rules for Flu and quarantine from countries with large numbers of Flu infections.
The NHS usually tries to push the Flu issue as part of preparing for winter pressures however most people ignore it and the government of the day happily carried on underfunding the response each year.
I'm sure when Covid deaths hit zero, we'll find flu reclassified as "possibly Covid" just so we can keep project fear running at full throttle.

I've obviously missed the stories of all those who died after visiting the beach at Bournemouth.
 

45107

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What if a vaccine is never found?
Hard decisions need to be made at national and international level to mitigate and manage the effects.
Remember, the UK is not the only country affected. Maybe we could pool our resources with our nearest neighbours to manage it.

For what it is worth, my view is the the current economic damage is a drop in the ocean to what will happen come next January when the transition period with the EU finishes.
 

Howardh

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I'm sure when Covid deaths hit zero, we'll find flu reclassified as "possibly Covid" just so we can keep project fear running at full throttle.

I've obviously missed the stories of all those who died after visiting the beach at Bournemouth.
And the raves, the football celebrations etc etc. As alluded to, deaths from covid are now around or less than those for normal flu, and probably a lot less than those deaths caused by alcohol or tobacco. The only thing that worries me is the severe cases of covid (that don't cause death) are still very, very painful and will take up hospital beds, and id something I'm sure we all wish to avoid, so maybe there is a case for some social distancing/masks unti a vaccine is developed. But if there isn't a vaccine, then at some stage we have to return to "normal" and hope if we contract covid it's not severe.
Of course I hope there would be protections for old people's homes and the elderly in the community - such as home visits, priority deliveries and so on if theyfeel uneasy about life without a vaccine.
 

Jamiescott1

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Flu deaths should be low too as flu spreads in the same way as covid-19 so social distancing and masks should of reduced flu transmisson
 

Mag_seven

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Just a gentle reminder that we are discussing media coverage of COVID 19 on this thread. If anyone wants to discuss other COVID issues then please find a more appropriate thread or start a new one. Thanks :)
 

adc82140

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Once again they are all getting their knickers in a twist over the R value. Screaming that it's going up (possibly). So what? Is there an increase in the hospitalisation rate? No. And don't start on the 3 week delay for hospitals. They got themselves in an equal tizz 3 weeks ago. Check out the Guardian live feed. It'd be funny if there wasn't the danger of people taking it seriously.
 

AdamWW

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Once again they are all getting their knickers in a twist over the R value. Screaming that it's going up (possibly). So what? Is there an increase in the hospitalisation rate? No. And don't start on the 3 week delay for hospitals. They got themselves in an equal tizz 3 weeks ago. Check out the Guardian live feed. It'd be funny if there wasn't the danger of people taking it seriously.

I just had a look and what I saw was some fairly measured reporting on the results from the latest calculations for R from SAGE.
 

adc82140

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Not in the Guardian there isn't. Emotive words like "worrying" are not measured, with no mention of the fact that R becomes a flawed evaluation at lower levels. I've just crunched the infections per 100000 figures for the South West, by and large they are static or falling, with just a couple of areas showing a slight rise, but still under the UK average. But this doesn't sound as exciting as "with a figure of 1.1 infections are rising exponentially.
 

AdamWW

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Not in the Guardian there isn't. Emotive words like "worrying" are not measured, with no mention of the fact that R becomes a flawed evaluation at lower levels. I've just crunched the infections per 100000 figures for the South West, by and large they are static or falling, with just a couple of areas showing a slight rise, but still under the UK average. But this doesn't sound as exciting as "with a figure of 1.1 infections are rising exponentially.

Ah. I think I see the problem.

When I see SAGE quote a range of R values I assume that this is the range they calculate to some confidence level (90% seems to be usual).

It looks as if you're assuming that infection numbers are too low for R to be meaningful but SAGE are reporting them nevertheless and acting as if they have validity.

The article is full of phrases like "R is likely to be" so it's made clear that these are not claimed to be accurate figures.

I could be wrong but I suspect the calculation is a big more sophisticated than just counting raw infection figures as this would be very inaccurate when numbers of tests change.

I couldn't find the line "with a figure of 1.1 infections are rising exponentially" so I'm not sure of the context.
 

Mcr Warrior

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In layman's terms, how exactly is the 'R' figure calculated, and what degree of confidence should be put in the published figure?
 

Richard Scott

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Ah. I think I see the problem.

When I see SAGE quote a range of R values I assume that this is the range they calculate to some confidence level (90% seems to be usual).

It looks as if you're assuming that infection numbers are too low for R to be meaningful but SAGE are reporting them nevertheless and acting as if they have validity.

The article is full of phrases like "R is likely to be" so it's made clear that these are not claimed to be accurate figures.

I could be wrong but I suspect the calculation is a big more sophisticated than just counting raw infection figures as this would be very inaccurate when numbers of tests change.

I couldn't find the line "with a figure of 1.1 infections are rising exponentially" so I'm not sure of the context.
To be honest the Media probably love reporting R as most people don't realise that at low levels of infection it's next to useless and secondly probably don't understand exponential increase or decay so Media can have a field day reporting all this, which in essence is reporting the truth, but is lies, damn lies and statistics in another way.
 

AdamWW

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To be honest the Media probably love reporting R as most people don't realise that at low levels of infection it's next to useless and secondly probably don't understand exponential increase or decay so Media can have a field day reporting all this, which in essence is reporting the truth, but is lies, damn lies and statistics in another way.

At some level of "low" it's next to useless. I hope that when SAGE give a range of values for R they are doing so because the numbers of positive tests are high enough for their figures to be useful.

The ONS figures from random sampling give ranges, and they also say explicitly when the values shouldn't be relied on because they come from too small a number of samples. Recently, they have warned that regional values of R should not be taken seriously but the whole England ones should be valid. Random sampling is from a quite small number of tests so R values from this method will be less accurate.

In any case, if R has become unreliable due to being taken from too small a number of samples, I'd have thought you'd see it fluctuating wildly, wouldn't you? And it doesn't seem to be doing that.

I think it is incorrect to say that currently R is not at all useful.
 

Richard Scott

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At some level of "low" it's next to useless. I hope that when SAGE give a range of values for R they are doing so because the numbers of positive tests are high enough for their figures to be useful.

The ONS figures from random sampling give ranges, and they also say explicitly when the values shouldn't be relied on because they come from too small a number of samples. Recently, they have warned that regional values of R should not be taken seriously but the whole England ones should be valid. Random sampling is from a quite small number of tests so R values from this method will be less accurate.

In any case, if R has become unreliable due to being taken from too small a number of samples, I'd have thought you'd see it fluctuating wildly, wouldn't you? And it doesn't seem to be doing that.

I think it is incorrect to say that currently R is not at all useful.
It's not useful with small numbers as a small change will give a large or small R value, as was seen in Germany recently. Afraid it is useless with the numbers we have, as I've pointed out before small numbers and random events lead to poor statistics.
 

AdamWW

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It's not useful with small numbers as a small change will give a large or small R value, as was seen in Germany recently. Afraid it is useless with the numbers we have, as I've pointed out before small numbers and random events lead to poor statistics.

Yes you've pointed that out, but it doesn't make it true.

What is your evidence that the numbers are currently too small for R to be meaningful? (And if that's the case, do you have an explanation as to why the ONS think they are useful at this stage?)

If random events are leading to poor statistics, R numbers would be jumping all over the place, wouldn't they? And they're not.
 

Richard Scott

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Yes you've pointed that out, but it doesn't make it true.

What is your evidence that the numbers are currently too small for R to be meaningful? (And if that's the case, do you have an explanation as to why the ONS think they are useful at this stage?)

If random events are leading to poor statistics, R numbers would be jumping all over the place, wouldn't they? And they're not.
Yes it does, it's maths I'm afraid. Any random event needs sufficient numbers to make it more accurate. If you have 500 cases that increased by 100 R becomes 1.2, if you have 50000 cases increase by 1000 R is 1.02, which is the better outcome? Obviously the first one but small starting point skews R to make it look worse. I do maths as part of my job, I'm not trying to sound big and clever, can you please just accept the point and it is correct?
 

Darandio

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In layman's terms, how exactly is the 'R' figure calculated, and what degree of confidence should be put in the published figure?

This is on the wall in the office. Once weekly they throw a dart at it to determine the figure.

RCHART.jpg
 

Richard Scott

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In layman's terms, how exactly is the 'R' figure calculated, and what degree of confidence should be put in the published figure?
Guessing here but assume they take figures over the week and compare to previous week. R is the factor by which it's increased so if 1000 has gone to 1100 it's gone up 1.1 times so R = 1.1, alternatively could be factor by which it's dropped.
 

AdamWW

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Yes it does, it's maths I'm afraid. Any random event needs sufficient numbers to make it more accurate. If you have 500 cases that increased by 100 R becomes 1.2, if you have 50000 cases increase by 1000 R is 1.02, which is the better outcome? Obviously the first one but small starting point skews R to make it look worse. I do maths as part of my job, I'm not trying to sound big and clever, can you please just accept the point and it is correct?

I'm not arguing that point.

We both agree that the higher the numbers, the more accurate R will be, and at some point the numbers will be too small for R to be useful. No disagreement there.

But you have claimed we are now at that point while providing no evidence. I'm not going to just accept that. Why should I? (I do maths as part of my job too, by the way).

The regional values are coming out with similar values to each other. If we were just seeing noise due to low sample numbers, why are we getting such good agreement between regions?
 

Darandio

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Eight segments, so maybe 12.5% confidence at best! ;)

In honesty it should have gone further and had an 80% probability of being 0.9 - 1.1 (that's where it always seems concentrated) but I didn't have the time so an equal one had to do! :lol:
 

Richard Scott

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I'm not arguing that point.

We both agree that the higher the numbers, the more accurate R will be, and at some point the numbers will be too small for R to be useful. No disagreement there.

But you have claimed we are now at that point while providing no evidence. I'm not going to just accept that. Why should I? (I do maths as part of my job too, by the way).

The regional values are coming out with similar values to each other. If we were just seeing noise due to low sample numbers, why are we getting such good agreement between regions?
Then if you do maths you'll understand why small numbers are unreliable in random events - this is a fact, how many examples do you want, could do something as simple as probability when rolling a dice or radioactive decay? You'll also understand in random events that some could well be similar, considering the numbers have varied little recently then we'd expect R to be close to 1 but as soon as it changes a little is could go up or down quite a bit. I really don't know what more you want, if you understand maths, which you must do then thought you'd get it without an example?
 

AdamWW

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Then if you do maths you'll understand why small numbers are unreliable in random events - this is a fact, how many examples do you want, could do something as simple as probability when rolling a dice or radioactive decay? You'll also understand in random events that some could well be similar, considering the numbers have varied little recently then we'd expect R to be close to 1 but as soon as it changes a little is could go up or down quite a bit. I really don't know what more you want, if you understand maths, which you must do then thought you'd get it without an example?

I don't need more examples, thanks.

I just don't understand why you are confident that the numbers are small enough that the R numbers the media are reporting are bogus.

I've given my reasons for thinking they are meaningful:
1) Appeal to authority - the ONS and SAGE think they are
2) Lack of fluctuations, both over time, and when splitting the dataset into smaller (regional) datasets.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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I just don't understand why you are confident that the numbers are small enough that the R numbers the media are reporting are bogus.
Just going to put my tuppence worth in here...

I don't think the R number is bogus, as such. I think it's just a less meaningful statistic to report on week by week, especially as case numbers decrease. For example, percentage of positive tests returned, or percentage of positive tests hospitalised would perhaps be better stats to report.
 

Richard Scott

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I don't need more examples, thanks.

I just don't understand why you are confident that the numbers are small enough that the R numbers the media are reporting are bogus.

I've given my reasons for thinking they are meaningful:
1) Appeal to authority - the ONS and SAGE think they are
2) Lack of fluctuations, both over time, and when splitting the dataset into smaller (regional) datasets.
I didn't say bogus I said meaningless i.e. unreliable.
 
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