UK face coverings discussion

[Bletchleyite]

The point is we still need to social distance unless we legislate and enforce mask type, which isnt feasible.

Wales has legislated for mask type, for what it's worth, so it clearly is feasible. But yes (sort of), the idea is that it's used as a mitigation to 1m+ or for additional benefit, not to replace distancing.

 

[DB]

This is caused by lack of education (not school education and not implying people are dull), Government has caused this fear through its campaign now it's going to find it very hard to reverse it even with a good education campaign, which I wouldn't trust them too be able to do.

The media has done its bit too. The last four months have been unprecedented - the lead stories pretty much every single day have been about this, and when they've not really had anything to report they've made speculation the lead 'story', e.g. 'second-wave' doom-mongering. Months of being bombarded with this has of course had a big impact - the tactics have basically been those used for spreading and reinforcing propaganda.

 

[DB]

Wales has legislated for mask type, for what it's worth, so it clearly is feasible. But yes (sort of), the idea is that it's used as a mitigation to 1m+ or for additional benefit, not to replace distancing.

Legislating for something is fairly pointless when there is no way of enforcing it. What are they going to do? Have inspectors in hazmat suits at every station entrance checking masks (changing gloves every time, with appropriate cleaning regimes, of course!) to see whether they actually have at least three layers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The media has done its bit too. The last four months have been unprecedented - the lead stories pretty much every single day have been about this, and when they've not really had anything to report they've made speculation the lead 'story', e.g. 'second-wave' doom-mongering. Months of being bombarded with this has of course had a big impact - the tactics have basically been those used for spreading and reinforcing propaganda.

You speak as if they are enjoying it. I certainly don't think it's what Bozza had in mind when he stood for election!

 

[Non Multi]

I’ve been taking a look through social media this morning, and I am beyond blown away at the amount of people who are outraged and/or threatening to boycott Sainsbury’s after they tweeted



(Quote:https://twitter.com/sainsburys/status/1286275914926632961?s=21)

A lot of people seem to really hold a grudge against exemptions, with an intent to label them, remove their ability to shop freely or use public transport, and in some cases leave their homes at all.

We’re turning really nasty

It's just the green ink brigade using web 2.0. They were always crackers. But it's now all out on the web for all to find.

 

[DB]

You speak as if they are enjoying it. I certainly don't think it's what Bozza had in mind when he stood for election!

Yeah, it's been fantastic. Loads of unpaid overtime in March, April and into May to get workable IT setups for so that staff could work at home in most cases, a good few weeks of virtual house arrest, then being effectively excluded from the trains and now shops (unless I want to be hassled by vigilantes of course). It's been a wonderful few months.

 

[AdamWW]

The GTR feed also contains quite a few gripes about staff not wearing them, which the company has fudged round responding to. I could have guaranteed that would kick off as I don’t think I’ve seen a single driver travelling pass wearing a mask.

I can see some logic behind rail staff not having to wear a mask while on duty, but why should rail staff be treated differently to anyone else when on their way to and from work? Or have I misunderstood?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, it's been fantastic. Loads of unpaid overtime in March, April and into May to get workable IT setups for so that staff could work at home in most cases, a good few weeks of virtual house arrest, then being effectively excluded from the trains and now shops (unless I want to be hassled by vigilantes of course). It's been a wonderful few months.

I didn't mean you, I meant Boris et al. The use of the phrase "propaganda" implies that it's a deliberate political end. It's really, really not.

 

[DB]

I can see some logic behind rail staff not having to wear a mask while on duty, but why should rail staff be treated differently to anyone else when on their way to and from work? Or have I misunderstood?

If they book on at the designated place and are then travelling by train to pick up teir first duty, or back again afterwards, they are "at work".

 

[AdamWW]

I would have preferred them to admit they didn't know, rather than resorting to guesswork which they obviously did.

I don't know what you've been reading. I have seen little evidence of scientists claiming to have all the answers then having to climb down when new evidence came in.

However it doesn't always get filtered through the media that way, e.g. "No evidence of human-to-human transmission" being reported as saying that there isn't transmission.

 

[DB]

The use of the phrase "propaganda" implies that it's a deliberate political end. It's really, really not.

You seem to be very trusting of polticians not to use this sort of situation to serve their own ends...

 

[AdamWW]

If they book on at the designated place and are then travelling by train to pick up teir first duty, or back again afterwards, they are "at work".

Yes I wondered if that would be the answer - though it's not entirely obvious to me even then why they should be treated differently.

So if travelling to book on or back home from booking off, staff will wear masks, then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You seem to be very trusting of polticians not to use this sort of situation to serve their own ends...

I'm struggling to see precisely what ends this would serve for them. I don't think a sneaky day out to Barnard Castle for a play in the river and a free Specsavers eye test while it's a bit quiet is really worth your political career potentially being in tatters, is it?

 

[DB]

I'm struggling to see precisely what ends this would serve for them. I don't think a sneaky day out to Barnard Castle for a play in the river and a free Specsavers eye test while it's a bit quiet is really worth your political career potentially being in tatters, is it?

Scottish and Welsh independence is an obvious one - Nicola Sturgeon will likely use this to strengthen her case in due course. In the case of Boris, there's the whole Brexit situation - if the economy tanks because of dragging this situation on, the immediate impact of a lack of meangful trade deals will be less obvious. I'm sure others will be able to think of other things.

 

[SS4]

It's useless as nobody is enforcing the rules.

 

[MidlandsChap]

Wales has legislated for mask type, for what it's worth, so it clearly is feasible. But yes (sort of), the idea is that it's used as a mitigation to 1m+ or for additional benefit, not to replace distancing.

Legislation is feasible. Enforcement not so much.

 

[Enthusiast]

I'm glad I was busy watching a film last night because some of this beggars belief:

The shop keeper was doing as required by following the law.

Shop keepers are required to do nothing in connection with this law

It seems very clear that he didn't have an exemption from the post,

It may have been clear from the post but the thugs who questioned Ostrich's son (from what we are told) had no knowledge of his circumstances whatsoever.

and therefore as soon as someone pointed it out he should have dropped his goods off, turned and left the shop immediately, having realised he was committing an offence inadvertently.

Are you for real? Comparing it to forgetting your wallet is hardly a convincing argument.

However, if you're not exempt, it wouldn't need to go any further than "where's your mask?",

It shoudn't need to go that far. It is no business of anybody's why somebody is not wearing a face covering.

"sorry, mate, have you forgotten your mask?" which I think is totally acceptable once some sort of solution for exemptions is provided

As above.

I expect I'd report the matter to the shop staff as I went to pay and leave.

With the expectation that the staff would do what, exactly?

The problem is exemptions,

No it isn't. The problem is people poking their nose in where it's unjustified.

I do think there needs to be a means of identifying exempt people, this is a massive gap in the law.

Perhaps they could buy a small handbell and shuffle around ringing it whilst crying "Unclean! Unclean! Unclean!"

Also the exemptions as listed must apply,

You need to be careful about the difference between "exemptions" and a "reasonable excuse." Exemptions are listed in an exhaustive list and include people such as children, employees on duty, police officers and the like. Those with a "reasonable excuse" include those with medical conditions, those assisting others who need to lipread and so on. This is a non-exhaustive list and it is up to the people concerned whether they consider they have a "reasonable excuse" or not. For that reason a definitive list of "reasonable excuses" is not possible.

This thread demonstrates clearly the folly of this legislation. It is a badly thought out measure with questionable scientific basis and scant regard has been given to the risks presented by those fiddling about with face coverings inappropriately. But most importantly little or no thought has been given to the problems outlined above, particularly those that those who have an exemption or "reasonable excuse" will be treated. Unfortunately there is a huge number of people in this country who, shall we be kind and say, are less than thoughtful or empathetic and they will cause problems. And that's totally unwarranted and unnecessary.

 

[BJames]

Shop keepers are required to do nothing in connection with this law

Correct. And just to reinforce that, Sainsbury's, Asda and the Co-Op's Managing Directors all came out yesterday to say that they would not be enforcing the new rules as their staff are already subject to abuse and they don't want to make it worse. Security guard was standing on the door of my local Sainsbury's this morning with his face visor lifted up and no mask on - and he was on his phone anyway, not checking if anyone was wearing a mask.

 

[BJames]

OK. So now it begins.

My son is an NHS worker in Sussex. Tonight he went into a Tesco Express in his home town, and he forgot his mask. Inside the store, he was confronted, abused and videoed by another guy and his mate. It got "in-yer-face" confrontational and luckily store staff stepped in to put an end to it. My son has reported it to the police and is awaiting a call back. The store has it on CCTV. He is shaken up, and will not be going into work tomorrow.

I'm just giving you the base facts. Some of you will no doubt support the shaming of my son, others might be more sympathetic over what was a mistake that any of us could make any time.

All I can say is that it confirms my view that I am living in a [expletive deleted] country populated by a [expletive deleted] society. This is what we have become.
Thank you Cressida Dick. Thank you Boris Johnson. I cannot wait to see the back of both of you.

Having not read the majority of the responses to this I would just like to say I am really truly sorry to hear this. It is my opinion that nobody should be asking someone else "where is your mask"? Let the staff do it and if they've been told not to (company policy) then that's that really. This vigilante type behaviour is NOT acceptable and Cressida Dick's stance on this is unacceptable too.

With a mask on, I found the same as someone else said on here, that I was thinking "why aren't they wearing a mask?" before I remembered to mind my own business. Boris and Cressida's statements are fuelling division and I think it's starting to become noticeable that less people are happy about wearing the masks than the supposed "70%+" of people who supported them on the polls.

I must admit that I took my mask off on the train yesterday, as there were only three other people in my carriage and they all took their masks off (round the chin so they were not exempt) - they were all further down the carriage and we were running non stop back to London so there were no people passing through to get on and off, and I was at least 6-7 metres away from them. Plus, I didn't really see why I should wear mine to protect them when they weren't wearing theirs - and I must say it improved my journey considerably.

 

[Richard Scott]

My mother has just been shopping and couldn't cope with the facemask as found breathing difficult (she suffers from sinus conditions like I do), the lad on the door said just to say on her way in next time that she's unable to wear one for medical reasons.

 

[westv]

I think it's starting to become noticeable that less people are happy about wearing the masks than the supposed "70%+" of people who supported them on the polls.

Yes, 70% the majority of whom seemed to think that everybody else should wear a face covering but they would only do it if they were told they had to.

 

[Smidster]

Had my first trip into town today.

Compliance seemed very high with the numbers not wearing anything probably in the single figures though of course messing with them and touching faces constantly.

Certainly not pleasant but equally not as horrible as I was fearing. A couple of things that did stick out:
- It made me really want to get in and get out as quickly as possible so the shopping trip took less time than usual as I didn't want to spend more time than necessary in the shop.
- Only Asda was really trying to enforce the regulations with security bouncers on the Door (though they were offering people who didn't have one disposable ones)
- Find you lose some of the niceties that you get that you can get when people interact - much less communication in general (where you might have previously noticed people saying hello to one another) and even things like saying thank you to the checkout person seem bit more forced.
- Fortunately no sign of any members of the public being busy-bodies. The irony of course if that if someone not being in a mask scares or offends you so much you should run in the opposite direction to maintain your distance. Instigating a confrontation leads you to being far closer to the person involved, for a much longer period of time which doesn't sound ideal.

All in all it is depressing and dreary - let's hope it does some good (though I remain sceptical)

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I have a question:

In my line of work, I am mandated to wear a face mask to "protect the public". Fair enough.

I visited a well-known High Street clothes/food store today where customers are mandated to wear face masks to "protect the staff"

None of the staff were wearing face masks and none of them were observing social distancing. There were piddly screens at the tills and people could wander around unrestricted (i.e. no one-way system). I observed the (unmasked) duty manager walking around the store, clearly on a power trip gestulating to customers who weren't wearing face masks properly to do so.

Why aren't shop staff mandated to wear face masks to "protect the public"?

Because the government tell them they don't have to but it's different for us proles who pay their wages mainly through our spending. I took this up with the store manager and didn't get a satisfactory response

I am not sorry that many of these stores will be closing...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why aren't shop staff mandated to wear face masks to "protect the public"?

Traincrew too when in public areas. I find this incongruous and hypocritical. Sure, other mitigations are available e.g. being behind Perspex (or in the cab!), but if on the shop floor the staff should do the same as the customers as they most likely pose more of a risk than the customers due to interacting with more people daily!

To be fair you get this all over the place. One that riles me is climbing instructors at walls insisting their charges wear helmets but not doing so themselves. As someone in charge, you must set an example by yourself complying with the thing you're asking others to do, unless medically exempt etc[1]. If not, you are simply a hypocrite, and yes, if you own the business you deserve for it to fail. A hypocrite does not deserve to succeed.

[1] I suspect that most people who cannot wear a mask probably can wear a perspex face shield, so if they can they should if in that sort of position - or at least keep their gob shut, as it's been made clear they aren't required to enforce.

 

[setdown]

Good to see over 99% of people wearing a mask in the Trafford Centre today. Of those, I'd say 95% were wearing them properly. I had no idea what to expect, and felt nervous about going at first, but seeing this makes me feel a lot more confident.

 

[DB]

Good to see over 99% of people wearing a mask in the Trafford Centre today. Of those, I'd say 95% were wearing them properly. I had no idea what to expect, and felt nervous about going at first, but seeing this makes me feel a lot more confident.

Well, please remember that in order for you to feel more confident, other people have been put in a position where they feel excluded from shops.

 

[The_Train]

- Find you lose some of the niceties that you get that you can get when people interact - much less communication in general (where you might have previously noticed people saying hello to one another) and even things like saying thank you to the checkout person seem bit more forced.

This is probably the only thing I am struggling to get used to when wearing my face covering. Last week, I allowed someone to come through an overcrowded aisle (just the norm in an Aldi to have roller cages cluttering up aisles) and as he thanked me, I gave the slightest of nods but I went for a polite smile as the main emphasis of my acknowledgment of his thanks without thinking that he couldn't see my mouth. I hope he noticed the nod otherwise he would have just seen an intent stare coming back at him

 

[bramling]

I'd say that sounds reasonable as there isn't the demand there at the moment to make it a problem. Wouldn't bother me as I find the effing Fainsa Sophias less comfortable than the ironing boards, so they sit in the same bracket as 350/1 and /3 as units where I would travel in Standard even if my ticket was for 1st!



Now that's stupid. A wall with a closed door clearly provides far more protection than any mask, even an N95 respirator.

I suspect the real reason behind some of the hostility isn’t necessarily fear, but “I’m having to wear a mask against my will, so why shouldn’t that other person?”.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Yes, 70% the majority of whom seemed to think that everybody else should wear a face covering but they would only do it if they were told they had to.

I've thought throughout this crisis that there is a very big disconnect between what the public are telling pollsters, and actual public behaviour. Maybe a relatively inexperienced government, overly reliant on opinion polls, stuck in an increasing feedback loop of doom?

 

[Huntergreed]

I've thought throughout this crisis that there is a very big disconnect between what the public are telling pollsters, and actual public behaviour. Maybe a relatively inexperienced government, overly reliant on opinion polls, stuck in an increasing feedback loop of doom?

I think this perfectly sums up what's wrong with the current state of affairs.

I think many people are tending to choose the 'covid' safe option on polls, mainly because 3-4 months of media doom mongering, government scare tactics and public shaming have scared a lot of people, and now people feel that stringent measures must be taken on a national scale, whereas on a personal level they (hopefully) want a return to normal in the near future, which sadly it's looking increasingly likely that we're not going to get.