Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

[yorkie]

...Are they "extremely vocal"? Again I've not spotted them myself (my thanks to @Tetchytyke and @Bantamzen for sharing their Facebook experiences )....

A quick look at social media suggests most people are not positive about the requirement to wear face coverings, and that mirrors my experiences today with no-one wearing them, and my experiences of talking with work colleagues.

But there are very vocal people who are pro-masks (as well as anti).

The pro-mask side were much more vocal a few weeks ago when it looked like it would't be mandated, so they are harder to find now they got their way. Conversely, the anti-mask side are more vocal now we are approaching day one.

This person is no longer shopping at Sainsbury's because they will not "challenge" people who are not wearing masks:

https://twitter.com/We_Save_Energy/status/1286270996350210048

Having shopped at #Sainsburys for years, for personal safety I & many others will have to shop elsewhere. Sainsbury's won't challenge people who aren't wearing face masks

My view: staff can "challenge" customers but it would have to be done very sensitively given that I would estimate over 10% of the population are covered by exemptions; shops will NOT be wanting negative stories about people being challenged in a manner that causes anxiety or embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/AndyShears2/status/1286264793146564614

@Tesco Tesco, so you won’t be challenging people not wearing masks, you disgust me, encouraging selfish people to spread COVID and encourage them to break the law, to you money comes before lives

As above; a different person, sent to Tesco and also to various other supermarkets.

https://twitter.com/mullen_tori/status/1286283934964363264

The fact that all these Hoosiers are complaining about wearing a mask is ridiculous. How selfish do you have to be to knowingly put others in harms way? You people need to understand that even if masks are a “political stunt,” it’s better safe than sorry.

https://twitter.com/joanevajoan/status/1286280967838224385

YOU NEED TO READ SCIENCE!!! MASKS PROTECT OTHERS FROM THE WEARER INFECTING THEM...FOR YOU TO IGNORE THIS IS PURELY SELFISH

This person is very SHOUTY

https://twitter.com/ngotti3/status/1286280966819008513

Hey @NBA I’m disgusted that you have teams and fans not wearing masks during this pandemic! How selfish of you to not care about the health and safety of players and fans during this crisis. PEOPLE ARE DYING @NBAonTNT

This person wants people to wear masks while engaging in sporting activity.

https://twitter.com/paul_menca/status/1286277222689579016

Surgical masks are to protect OTHERS!! Not the wearer. So you are being selfish by not wearing one

I'd argue that anyone wearing a surgical mask outside a relevant setting is being selfish.

https://twitter.com/CHELSI_Lately/status/1286262939218055170

Also, I genuinely do not understand those who are refusing to wear masks.. I would say you’re only putting yourself in harm’s way, BUT YOU’RE NOT. YOU’RE PUTTING EVERYONE ELSE AROUND YOU AT RISK. YOU’RE THE REASON WE’RE STILL WEARING MASKS. QUIT BEING SELFISH AND IGNORANT.

https://twitter.com/teach_themasses/status/1286260670460309505

Unfortunately the selfish people who don’t understand how masks actually work will refuse. They are protected by people wearing masks and the mask wearers are not because they can freely spread their germs. If you don’t wear a mask you shouldn’t get health care.

It's unclear how the proposal to withdraw healthcare for non-mask wearers would work...

https://twitter.com/miscey229/status/1286253791231320064

People still not wearing masks. you would rather die than follow the advice to wear them. Your life is not important to you so you compromise yourself and others. Wow talk about being trifling, selfish and disrespectful.

Reading something like that is hardly going to make me want to wear a mask; if anything, reading stuff like this makes me want to not wear them to prove them wrong.

https://twitter.com/KimHNorris/status/1286252295437651971

Get this headline right. It should say, "Selfish assholes refusing to wear masks in public cause spike in Covid cases and dash hopes for..."

https://twitter.com/paulieblogger/status/1286243701694566402

Would Anti Maskers complain if they were in surgery and the whole surgical team had no masks, scrubs or gloves on? I think they ****ing would! Would they complain if they weren’t wearing a mask and someone coughs on them? F****** YES! Wear a f***** mask you utter selfish c***s!

Wow; this angry person is really good at analogies (!). I wonder if he does the good old supermarket analogy with rail fares

https://twitter.com/cattybojanglez/status/1286274784444198913

This is ridiculous. - masks mandatory with fines - places aren't actually gonna enforce it because they're scared of customers

so basically anyone can say they don't wanna wear one. We are still having 100+ die a day. I ****ing hate England. I renounce my citizenship.

Is this person really saying they are renouncing their citizenship because we have exemptions for wearing masks and we cannot force people to wear them?

https://twitter.com/joan_of_orc/status/1286240652506931200

In the shopping centre again. So little 2m, maybe 1/3rd wearing masks, fewer wearing properly. People ignoring one way or walking slowly in awkward places

I HATE PEOPLE

Shopping is stressful.

This person apparently hates people; do they think that being hateful is going to encourage people to listen to them?

There are many more examples, though I maintain absolutely they are very much in the minority, and they are being drowned out at the moment.

 

[ainsworth74]

A quick look at social media suggests most people are not positive about the requirement to wear face coverings, and that mirrors my experiences today with no-one wearing them, and my experiences of talking with work colleagues.

Thank you, I've been scrolling through my usual Social Media feed but it's just not been obvious. Like I said originally just been lucky I think!

This person is very SHOUTY

Sorry? What did you say? My ears are still ringing!

 

[MikeWM]

Thank you, I've been scrolling through my usual Social Media feed but it's just not been obvious. Like I said originally just been lucky I think!

I guess Twitter 'learns' what you want to see - or what they've decided they think you want to see. Or you only follow sensible people

I tend to look at it - without logging in - in a 'private' browser window; that way you've a better chance of seeing the shouty people. Whether that is *better* or not, is a good question!

 

[AdamWW]

Just read this article on the (non) use of masks in Sweden more thoroughly.

One line particularly stood out, given the frequent comparisons between the UK and Sweden:

"He [Tegnell] also added that in Sweden, there is less risk of crowding than in some other cities, due partly to the continued recommendation to work from home unless absolutely necessary. "In London for example it's a completely different situation, there's not a shadow of a chance to reduce [the number of people using] public transport. They have chosen to open up completely, we haven't done that here. That creates crowded environments," Tegnell said. "

This bit was also interesting:

"at the daily coronavirus press conferences, the journalists wearing masks typically touch their faces more than others. "

 

[Scrotnig]

A quick look at social media suggests most people are not positive about the requirement to wear face coverings, and that mirrors my experiences today with no-one wearing them, and my experiences of talking with work colleagues.

But there are very vocal people who are pro-masks (as well as anti).

The pro-mask side were much more vocal a few weeks ago when it looked like it would't be mandated, so they are harder to find now they got their way. Conversely, the anti-mask side are more vocal now we are approaching day one.

<snip for brevity and space>

Your examples are excellent and there are LOADS of these people, everywhere on the social media platforms. I don't use them enough to make a difference, and when I do I only read and don't post, but there are huge numbers of people posting similar opinions. The media pick up on this and then it seems the government go along with what they believe to be 'public opinion'.

I notice you included one that said 'PEOPLE ARE DYING'. Missing are the ones that say 'YOUR (sic) KILLING PEOPLE' and best of all the ones that say you are a 'MURDERER'. In fact we've had the 'murderer' idea used in the past few days in this very parish.

 

[adc82140]

I imagine service stations will follow the same guidance as shopping centres, which (I believe) is that masks must be worn in them (it is in Scotland anyway)

On reflection I think you'd probably want to wear a face covering in a motorway service station bog covid or no covid.

 

[Mag_seven]

Your examples are excellent and there are LOADS of these people, everywhere on the social media platforms. I don't use them enough to make a difference, and when I do I only read and don't post, but there are huge numbers of people posting similar opinions. The media pick up on this and then it seems the government go along with what they believe to be 'public opinion'.

I notice you included one that said 'PEOPLE ARE DYING'. Missing are the ones that say 'YOUR (sic) KILLING PEOPLE' and best of all the ones that say you are a 'MURDERER'. In fact we've had the 'murderer' idea used in the past few days in this very parish.

I know its hysterical nonsense - problem is as you say the government appears to pay attention to it.

 

[Scrotnig]

On reflection I think you'd probably want to wear a face covering in a motorway service station bog covid or no covid.

Urrgh yes. Or any public toilet frankly.

All the precautions we're now told to take, like frequent handwashing and not touching surfaces etc, my goodness I was already doing most of it long before this kicked off. Which is why I was fortunate in already having a substantial stock of those little hand sanitiser bottles before they became scarce. I use them all the time when in places where handwashing isn't feasible and always have. Call me germ-phobic if you like, but I'll only agree!

I'm quite sure if we weren't such a dirty filthy nation overall, we'd not only have been hit much less hard by this virus, but we'd also have much lower general sickness rates.

 

[bramling]

Just read this article on the (non) use of masks in Sweden more thoroughly.

One line particularly stood out, given the frequent comparisons between the UK and Sweden:

"He [Tegnell] also added that in Sweden, there is less risk of crowding than in some other cities, due partly to the continued recommendation to work from home unless absolutely necessary. "In London for example it's a completely different situation, there's not a shadow of a chance to reduce [the number of people using] public transport. They have chosen to open up completely, we haven't done that here. That creates crowded environments," Tegnell said. "

This bit was also interesting: "at the daily coronavirus press conferences, the journalists wearing masks typically touch their faces more than others. "

The last paragraph is rather concerning, and would of course echo what the likes of Jenny Harries were saying just a couple of months ago, that mask wearing amongst the general population is a “bad idea”.

The idea that London has completely re-opened is wide of the mark. Apart from the crowded early-morning trains filled with shift worker types (which has been the case right through), and a few “furlough express” trains to Brighton on hot days, trains are still much emptier than usual. Likewise take a walk round somewhere like the city even during the daytime and it’s still pretty dead.

There’s certainly been a resurgence of leisure activities, which I don’t think should be seen as a surprise, however clearly vast numbers of people are not back in their pre-Covid workplace.

 

[bramling]

I know its hysterical nonsense - problem is as you say the government appears to pay attention to it.

Hysteria really is becoming the word to describe some of it. If this really is genuine fear (and in some cases I have my doubts about that) then the government needs to get hold of this pronto, or things are going to turn nasty.

 

[adc82140]

You have to remember it's a very vocal minority. If you scour the bottom half of the internet anywhere you find this type, getti g het up about all sorts of things. Other Internet oddities are the only people who will give them any attention.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are they "extremely vocal"? Again I've not spotted them myself (my thanks to @Tetchytyke and @Bantamzen for sharing their Facebook experiences ) and the by far the loudest and most ardent group of people I've come across in my travels across the internet are the antis on this thread!

You'll find fanaticists of all persuasions if you look on the bottom half of the internet. There's a few on the BBC Isle of Man Facebook page booting off about our government "killing people" because we have an air bridge with Guernsey (also has locked borders, also has no Covid cases) and the first flight ran yesterday. It seems to be the same, but on a grander scale, on other pages I follow, such as HIGNFY. But it works both ways, there are plenty of fanatical anti-mask posts by people alleging it's all some big worldwide political conspiracy designed to keep the proles in their place (how this works is quite beyond me).

On a less fanatical level, I do see a fair few posts from my friends having kittens because they went on a bus and someone wasn't wearing a mask. It's not at the OMG THEY'RE GRANNY KILLERS! level, but it is a public way of registering their disapproval. And, as I said, I said on social media I thought masks were pointless and a political sop by an inept PM and pretty much got shot down.

I think there's increasing evidence that the WHO was under political pressure to endorse masks.

I think this is where we start to veer into tinfoil-hattery. Political pressure? By whom? For what purpose?

I think there are a lot of governments running around flapping; "we must do something, this is something, therefore we must do this". Something noticeable like masks makes politicians look like they're grasping the mettle. I think the WHO are another political organisation running around and doing a lot of flapping to try and make themselves look relevant. But lets not get into conspiracy theories, yeah?

 

[bramling]

You have to remember it's a very vocal minority. If you scour the bottom half of the internet anywhere you find this type, getti g het up about all sorts of things. Other Internet oddities are the only people who will give them any attention.

The problem is with that sort of stuff spreading around it’s creating an extremely hostile atmosphere, which leads us to scenes like the woman screaming out ofher car window, where a calm and rational assessment of risk would simply have led her to keep her window closed.

The moment we have people being branded as murderers simply because their risk assessment conclusion differs from that of someone else is a very dangerous moment for society, especially when we have a prime minister and government who seem completely incapable of recognising let alone addressing these sorts of cohesion issues.

I’d say this has gone beyond depressing now, it’s very concerning IMO. Yes it absolutely is only a minority of people stirring it up - on my walk yesterday we only encountered a couple of “retreat into the wall” types, with 99% of people quite happily passing in a sensible way - but it’s enough to be spreading hysteria. I’m sure there’s also some latching on to it as a means of furthering pre-existing agendas and dislikes - the “cyclists stop panting virus through our village” types.

 

[AdamWW]

The last paragraph is rather concerning, and would of course echo what the likes of Jenny Harries were saying just a couple of months ago, that mask wearing amongst the general population is a “bad idea”.

It is, but of course one attempt at a solution would be to educate people better.

I've certainly not been that impressed with what I've seen so far - and even trying my best, I've found myself a few times adjusting my mask without washing/sanitising my hands before and after.

The idea that London has completely re-opened is wide of the mark.

Indeed - but I think views in the UK of how much Sweden has remained open are often equally wide of the mark - note the "continued recommendation to work from home unless absolutely necessary" line - and in that in England we are shortly to be more relaxed than Sweden unless they also change their advice in a week or so.

 

[adc82140]

They'll shout "murderers" for a day or two until either someone takes them to task over it, or they get bored and move on to the next thing. The car window woman is just a bit crazy, that's all. To be pitied really.

 

[bramling]

They'll shout "murderers" for a day or two until either someone takes them to task over it, or they get bored and move on to the next thing. The car window woman is just a bit crazy, that's all. To be pitied really.

I *really* hope you’re right.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I am hopeful that they all shut up when their furlough ends in October and they have to step out into the real world, instead of living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[Bantamzen]

The Corona-Nemesis channel, sorry BBC News are just starting to report on their daily live feed that the PM does not expect the Wanna-Vigilanties to be texting in each and every possible mask-crime. There's going to be some really disappointed people out there....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-53509270

No need for public to report non-mask wearers - Number 10
Downing Street has said it does not expect members of the public to report people not wearing masks in shops from Friday due to voluntary take-up of the policy.
Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said: "You've seen over the course of recent months the British public have voluntarily chosen to follow the guidance because they want to help slow the spread of the virus and I'm sure that will be the case with face coverings as well.
"With shops, we would expect them to give advice to customers and remind them that they should be wearing a face covering and I'm sure the overwhelming majority of the public will do so."
Those not wearing their masks properly over both mouth and nose will be "advised as to the right and safest way to wear a face mask" rather than be immediately fined up to £100 for non-compliance, he said, adding: "That would be the sensible approach.”

 

[Journeyman]

It's interesting to see the difference in opinion in Scotland vs. England on this.

We've had it in Scotland for a couple of weeks now. Can't say I like it, but I'm getting used to it, and compliance seems high. Personally, I find Nicola Sturgeon pretty obnoxious and I think her positive ratings are massively undeserved, but she's the head of a centre-left government that seems to fairly represent the political views of most Scots (if you exclude the obvious angry hornet's nest of independence). Also, nationalists won't ever criticise SNP policy, so it seems the rules here have majority support. So - popular leader implements policy with fairly wide support.

England is completely different. Boris is a bumbling oaf completely out of his depth and a hugely divisive figure. He leads a government at the very extreme end of the British political spectrum, and with a highly libertarian bent that resents compulsion and red tape. Hence this is deeply unpopular. Added to that, it's becoming clear that he's now a liability with the electorate, and that will only get worse as Brexit hits home. Hence this is likely to result in one of those times when the Tories start fighting like rats in a sack, and the knives will be out for him.

While I think the SNP's united front and completely on-message communications come from a deeply unpleasant authoritarian streak within the party, it's clear that the way this has been implemented on different sides of the border is going to play out very differently.

 

[bramling]

It is, but of course one attempt at a solution would be to educate people better.

I've certainly not been that impressed with what I've seen so far - and even trying my best, I've found myself a few times adjusting my mask without washing/sanitising my hands before and after.

This is precisely the reason why the likes of Harries and Van Tam have been against the idea of masks, and it’s noticeable how both individuals seem to have disappeared from view since the Cummings scandal.

Harries is on record saying masks pose “more risk than less” and are “not a good idea”, whilst Van Tam “absolutely no evidence masks reduce spread of the virus”. There’s plenty more on You Tube. Given the recent noticeably ill-tempered Whitty grilling and a clear sense of offishness on a couple of occasions when Vallance has appeared recently, one does wonder if there’s something going on behind the scenes.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The relevant legislation for face coverings in relevant places can be found here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/made

Relevant places where face coverings must be worn

1.—(1) A shop, but does not include—

(a)restaurants with table service, including restaurants and dining rooms in hotels or members’ clubs,
(b)bars, including bars in hotels or members’ clubs,
(c)public houses.
(2) For the purposes of (1), an area within or adjacent to a shop where seating or tables are made available by that business for the consumption of food and drink on the premises by customers of that business is not a relevant place for the purposes of these Regulations.

2. Enclosed shopping centres, excluding any area in that building which is open to the public and where seating or tables are made available for the consumption of food and drink.

3. Banks, building societies, credit unions, short-term loan providers, savings clubs and undertakings which by way of business operate a currency exchange office, transmit money (or any representation of money) by any means or cash cheques which are made payable to customers.

4. Post Offices.

 

[Bantamzen]

The relevant legislation for face coverings in relevant places can be found here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/made

Thanks for the link. For any business with the mind to, there's plenty of get-outs there....

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is precisely the reason why the likes of Harries and Van Tam have been against the idea of masks, and it’s noticeable how both individuals seem to have disappeared from view since the Cummings

We don't know if they're still against masks, but Jenny Harries and Jonathan Van-Tam have both disappeared because they didn't defend Cummings and his eye test road trip.

 

[DB]

due to voluntary take-up of the policy

What does that actually mean?

Those not wearing their masks properly over both mouth and nose will be "advised as to the right and safest way to wear a face mask" rather than be immediately fined up to £100 for non-compliance

Who would be dishing out this 'immediate fine' anyway? Have they employed thousands of extra police to patrol the aisles of Testo and Sainsburys all day?

 

[87electric]

I think this is where we start to veer into tinfoil-hattery. Political pressure? By whom? For what purpose?

It may just as simple as a Governments lobbying of WHO for the introduction of the mask placebo to placate the terrified population that won’t leave their houses. Behavioural science. Our Government does have that kind of official department, a nudge unit.
Debates/arguments are ensuing all the time over the “follow the science”, and it proves there is confusion and chaos. Maybe, just maybe, a little left field thinking, will prove effective. No one likes to go down the conspiracy route of thinking, but if this whole situation moves further away from a democracy, everyone needs to stand up and question every decision made for the people.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The relevant legislation for face coverings in relevant places can be found here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/791/made

They shoot themselves in the foot in including banks and post offices, because they then state in paragraph 6 of the Schedule that any premises providing financial services is exempt from being a relevant place. No doubt most such businesses will still be applying a mask mandate policy to avoid the wrath of the masktivists.

Another error that immediately springs to mind is the fact that (more or less) only PC Plod is specified as having the power to forcibly remove people from the premises. Of course by virtue of all affected premises being private property, any person acting on behalf of the landowner/tenant can do that. It might seem a trite point, but if the Regulations gave this power, it would ensure that there could be no possible liability for disability discrimination.

Of course it's ludicrous how it's supposedly necessary to enforce masks in shops, but not in a theatre or cinema, where you're sitting near to random strangers for possibly hours on end. Goes to demonstrate that this is all show, and has nothing to do with the science. Sadly I predict that they will remove the exemptions as time goes on, until eventually all indoor premises are included.

The Regulations expire after 12 months, and are only subject to review after six months. We're in for this one on the long run folks...

 

[AdamWW]

They shoot themselves in the foot in including banks and post offices, because they then state in paragraph 6 of the Schedule that any premises providing financial services is exempt from being a relevant place. No doubt most such businesses will still be applying a mask mandate policy to avoid the wrath of the masktivists.

The Regulations expire after 12 months, and are only subject to review after six months. We're in for this one on the long run folks...

Just because they are set for review in 6 months doesn't mean that changes can't be made before then. Parliament isn't supposed to be able to pass laws that constrain itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Regulations expire after 12 months, and are only subject to review after six months. We're in for this one on the long run folks...

Doesn't mean of course that they can't review them sooner. They just don't have to.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Doesn't mean of course that they can't review them sooner. They just don't have to.

I'd be extremely surprised if it's reviewed, let alone changed, before then. This is the "New Normal", folks. Isn't it just wonderful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be extremely surprised if it's reviewed, let alone changed, before then. This is the "New Normal", folks. Isn't it just wonderful.

It's not great, but there's still the minor issue of a nasty disease scampering around in the background.