Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

[Baxenden Bank]

This will set back the big retailers and absolutely cripple the independent ones (I read earlier one trader took just £1.20 recently in a whole day due to selling a bottle of water to a customer who simply wanted to use their toilet!)

Mixed messaging as usual too, so I have to wear a face covering on the train to Leeds, but then don't have to wear one walking around the station when I get to Leeds (despite what some people may think!), but then have to wear one again to visit the Sainsburys in the station but then don't have to wear one when I go to McDonalds directly opposite Sainsburys, ARGH!

We are a nation of small shopkeepers. They generally vote Conservative. They all need to tell their MP, politely enough, just how all these anti-business decisions are impacting them. Then get the big boys to weigh in - Tesco (used as an example being the biggest food retailer) stating that they respect the law but have no intention of advising or enforcing it in their stores for example.

 

[Scrotnig]

We are a nation of small shopkeepers. They generally vote Conservative. They all need to tell their MP, politely enough, just how all these anti-business decisions are impacting them. Then get the big boys to weigh in - Tesco (used as an example being the biggest food retailer) stating that they respect the law but have no intention of advising or enforcing it in their stores for example.

Tesco wouldn’t do that, nor would any of the big supermarkets.

 

[mmh]

We are a nation of small shopkeepers. They generally vote Conservative. They all need to tell their MP, politely enough, just how all these anti-business decisions are impacting them. Then get the big boys to weigh in - Tesco (used as an example being the biggest food retailer) stating that they respect the law but have no intention of advising or enforcing it in their stores for example.

Lidl have done that in Scotland:

This policy is in line with other supermarkets who are also following government guidance that it is not the job of shop workers to enforce mask wearing.

One section of the colleague communication letter reads: “Why are you not enforcing face coverings in your Scottish stores?


“In line with government guidance wearing a face covering in store is the responsibility of the individual, not the retailer, and should only be enforced by Police Scotland.

“The government have stipulated that shop workers should not refuse entry to customers that are not wearing a face covering”.

from: https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/lidl-scotland-face-masks-coverings-18584765

 

[bramling]

Tesco wouldn’t do that, nor would any of the big supermarkets.

They might have to though, not from a publicity perspective but from a health and safety perspective, that of their staff. It’s unreasonable to put their staff in the middle of a potential conflict situation.

It might just about be viable to have security refusing to let people in (though this in itself would create problems with the exemptions), but it would be very difficult to deal with people who take their mask off once in store.

Especially if it then causes a flare-up with a mask enthusiast on the shop floor, there will need to be a policy as to what staff are then expected to do, or not do as the case may be.

 

[Scrotnig]

They might have to though, not from a publicity perspective but from a health and safety perspective, that of their staff. It’s unreasonable to put their staff in the middle of a potential conflict situation.

It might just about be viable to have security refusing to let people in (though this in itself would create problems with the exemptions), but it would be very difficult to deal with people who take their mask off once in store.

Especially if it then causes a flare-up with a mask enthusiast on the shop floor, there will need to be a policy as to what staff are then expected to do, or not do as the case may be.

I hope you’re right. The whole thing is a terrible mess.

 

[Huntergreed]

I've been observing the debate in parliament surrounding this. All members of both parties seem to be largely in favour of mask mandation. Hancock has said that masks 'make the public feel safer and more confident to return to a more normal'. He referenced that more people were using public transport and the mandation of masks there has encouraged more people to return to using transport than would have without it. I can't help but feel this line of logic isn't quite correct. Masks constantly highlight and remind us of the danger of the virus, and I would actually feel less safe on transport with masks mandated, considering many people don't use them correctly or don't have a proper 'mask.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

As the Scottish thread has been locked, I'll put this here:

The Scottish Chief Nursing Officer has said today that "evidence is increasing that they not only stop asymptomatic people spreading the virus but that it also protects the wearer". (my bold)

Has this evidence been published, or even mentioned elsewhere or has she made it up on the spot?

 

[MikeWM]

All members of both parties seem to be largely in favour of mask mandation.

Of course. There's no political party left for anyone in possession of any desire to look at facts or evidence or apply common sense. First one that does gets my vote.

 

[adc82140]

The only party that opposes this is *shudder* the Brexit Party. For numerous other reasons I just can't bring myself to vote for them.

 

[Ostrich]

Hancock has said that masks 'make the public feel safer and more confident to return to a more normal'. He referenced that more people were using public transport and the mandation of masks there has encouraged more people to return to using transport than would have without it. I can't help but feel this line of logic isn't quite correct .....

Indeed! I would argue that more people are using public transport because they've been "encouraged" back to the workplace, and the mandation of masks / perception of public safety has actually had little to do with it ....
Is there anything out there to support Hancock's contention?

 

[jfollows]

As the Scottish thread has been locked, I'll put this here:

The Scottish Chief Nursing Officer has said today that "evidence is increasing that they not only stop asymptomatic people spreading the virus but that it also protects the wearer". (my bold)

Has this evidence been published, or even mentioned elsewhere or has she made it up on the spot?

I'm afraid I don't have the evidence, although I will post it if I come across it, but I recall reading some articles and papers over recent weeks which make this claim. They generally include the caveat that the evidence is less strong than the evidence that wearing a face mask prevents the spread of the virus to others. Nonetheless I think the evidence is that wearing a face mask protects the wearer too, albeit not by very much. Personally I think the reduction in risk to the wearer on top of the low likelihood of catching the virus in the first place means that it's a very minor effect, and I wouldn't personally make much of the claim, but it may well be statistically significant nonetheless.

 

[MikeWM]

The only party that opposes this is *shudder* the Brexit Party. For numerous other reasons I just can't bring myself to vote for them.

I understand, but I think we're safe there. As pointed out a few pages back, even Farage supports them. Indeed he wrote on Twitter back in April

'It seems to me that there is no downside to wearing a face mask and anything that could help ease the lockdown should be encouraged. Governments across the world are changing their view and I predict our own administration will end up making a U-turn on this before long.'

 

[westv]

I understand, but I think we're safe there. As pointed out a few pages back, even Farage supports them. Indeed he wrote on Twitter back in April

'It seems to me that there is no downside to wearing a face mask and anything that could help ease the lockdown should be encouraged. Governments across the world are changing their view and I predict our own administration will end up making a U-turn on this before long.'

Hasn't the "lockdown" been virtually ended anyway without masks?

 

[MDB1images]

I've been observing the debate in parliament surrounding this. All members of both parties seem to be largely in favour of mask mandation. Hancock has said that masks 'make the public feel safer and more confident to return to a more normal'. He referenced that more people were using public transport and the mandation of masks there has encouraged more people to return to using transport than would have without it. I can't help but feel this line of logic isn't quite correct. Masks constantly highlight and remind us of the danger of the virus, and I would actually feel less safe on transport with masks mandated, considering many people don't use them correctly or don't have a proper 'mask.

Of the trains I work I have been surprised how small the increase in passengers has been since the shops opened and tbh many who I work with thought facemasks being mandatory was perhaps a factor in such a slow upturn in passenger numbers(particularly amongst shop/retail workers who returned to work).

 

[trebor79]

I've been observing the debate in parliament surrounding this. All members of both parties seem to be largely in favour of mask mandation. Hancock has said that masks 'make the public feel safer and more confident to return to a more normal'. He referenced that more people were using public transport and the mandation of masks there has encouraged more people to return to using transport than would have without it. I can't help but feel this line of logic isn't quite correct. Masks constantly highlight and remind us of the danger of the virus, and I would actually feel less safe on transport with masks mandated, considering many people don't use them correctly or don't have a proper 'mask.

I'd wager that lots of potential public transport users are currently using their cars so they don't have to wear a stupid mask. Plus all the messages on TOC websites telling you not to travel.

 

[adc82140]

There is a Q&A on the BBC website that suggests plastic visors are OK.

I think I might get myself one. It allows people to lipread, and heck I can even smile if I want to.

How will the vulnerable be protected from Covid? And other questions

The government has announced the end of all Covid restrictions in England.

www.bbc.co.uk

For those unable to access the link :

Can you wear a clear face visor in shops, or does it have to be a mask? - from Lynne Merry-West in Christchurch
On public transport, "face covering" is defined as a covering of any type that covers a person's nose and mouth.

Clear face visors do cover the nose and mouth so would be fine.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That doesn’t really tell us anything more than that many people perhaps don’t want the hassle of being bothered, or the cost of a fine. Having said that there still appears to be a core of people who don’t wear them on transport, especially if they know no one is looking.

From my friends in Newcastle I hear that compliance is OK, but not brilliant, in the peak times. Most people will comply for the sake of an easy life. But in the evenings, forget it. Another friend works on the trams in Manchester as an RPI and he reckons <10% compliance on the rougher bits of the Rochdale and Ashton lines.

 

[ashkeba]

As the Scottish thread has been locked, I'll put this here:

The Scottish Chief Nursing Officer has said today that "evidence is increasing that they not only stop asymptomatic people spreading the virus but that it also protects the wearer". (my bold)

Has this evidence been published, or even mentioned elsewhere or has she made it up on the spot?

It is difficult to know exactly what evidence she is referring to unless someone asks and gets an answer, but it could be the same evidence cited in the Royal Society review https://royalsociety.org/-/media/po...a=en-GB&hash=A22A87CB28F7D6AD9BD93BBCBFC2BB24

Cloth face masks and coverings for the general public are effective in improving: i) source protection, i.e., reduced virus transmission from the wearer when they are of optimal material and construction and fitted correctly; and ii) wearer protection, i.e., reduced rate of infection of those who wear them.

 

[greyman42]

But that means endlessly explaining myself to shop staff, police and even self-appointed mask vigilantes who are unlikely to take my word for it. Puts me at risk of verbal or even physical violence. No thanks.

If you are subject to verbal or physical threats from anyone then it would not be unreasonable to call the police.

 

[Scrotnig]

If you are subject to verbal or physical threats from anyone then it would not be unreasonable to call the police.

Of course, but I don’t want to put myself in that position in the first place. It’s terrifying. Plus by the time the police arrive it’s too late.

 

[ashkeba]

I'd wager that lots of potential public transport users are currently using their cars so they don't have to wear a stupid mask. Plus all the messages on TOC websites telling you not to travel.

I think people are driving more so that they obey the very discouraging TOC messages and so they do not have to share a poorly-ventilated (on most recent trains) enclosed cabin with unknown other people. I doubt many get to considering any downside of covering their face.

 

[westv]

My wife had to use a face covering for the first time on the bus into town. She says she hated it.

 

[ashkeba]

There is a Q&A on the BBC website that suggests plastic visors are OK.
[...]
Clear face visors do cover the nose and mouth so would be fine.

Surely the mouth is only covered if the visor curves enough and is worn close enough to the face that it is not exposed to the side?

I am not sure how many people who think a cloth mask a nuisance are going to enjoy a visor strapped to their forehead, but a visor does have the benefit of covering the eyes too and there is evidence in favour of eye protection too - so I wear my bigger wraparound glasses when out even if they do make me look like an older balder limping Bono!

 

[trebor79]

Where in the Coronovirus Act 2020 is the power to force face coverings conferred upon the Secretary of State? I've looked in the most obvious sections and can't find it.
Genuinely interested in whether there is legal power to make these regulations without parliamentary debate etc.

 

[ashkeba]

Where in the Coronovirus Act 2020 is the power to force face coverings conferred upon the Secretary of State? I've looked in the most obvious sections and can't find it.
Genuinely interested in whether there is legal power to make these regulations without parliamentary debate etc.

It is not in that act but there is legal power. Most of the coronovirus regulations are are under another act. For example, the main regulations start "The Secretary of State makes the following Regulations in exercise of the powers conferred by sections 45C(1), (3)(c), (4)(d), 45F(2) and 45P of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984"

 

[adc82140]

Surely the mouth is only covered if the visor curves enough and is worn close enough to the face that it is not exposed to the side?

They all have some curvature.

 

[trebor79]

Surely the mouth is only covered if the visor curves enough and is worn close enough to the face that it is not exposed to the side?

I don't think it really matters whether the placebo pill is round or rectangular.

 

[Butts]

Can you wear a crash helmet (full face) in place of a mask ?

 

[greyman42]

This has probably already been mentioned, but all the large supermarkets have quite large cafe/restaurant areas where people will not be wearing masks, so why worry about the rest of the supermarket?

 

[island]

Where in the Coronovirus Act 2020 is the power to force face coverings conferred upon the Secretary of State? I've looked in the most obvious sections and can't find it.
Genuinely interested in whether there is legal power to make these regulations without parliamentary debate etc.

It is not there, it is section 45Q (or thereabouts) of the Public Health Act 1984.