Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

[ashkeba]

Yeah but the consensus outside of Westminster and the noisy minority is that we don't want to wear face coverings. So he is against the consensus in that respect.

Opinion polls disagree so far. See above for yougov one.

 

[Non Multi]

Though not all vocal Brexiteers seem to mind. I was surprised to see Nigel Farage coming out in favour of this move - I'd have expected him to oppose it since he tends to enjoy railing against the consensus.

It's not Brexit, that's why. It's a public health issue.

 

[MikeWM]

This is what taking back control means. No one to challenge Boris or later prime ministers. No essential freedoms in a binding written treaty or constitution. Everything vulnerable to change very quickly without much consultation or even publishing the laws until hours before effectiveness, backed up by a landslide parliament without even the threat of loss of easy access to our main foreign markets because we've already surrendered that. Get ready for much more of this = get ready for Brexit.

Well, yes, but most of that is already happening now, and we're still effectively in the EU. It has always been the case in the UK that a party that can command a reasonably-sized majority in the House of Commons can run an effective dictatorship. The current lot are just being a lot more brazen about it.

 

[High Dyke]

It doesn't matter how stringent the law is. They could mandate full radiation suits and it would make naff all difference to transmission in shops. This is my point. There is no risk of transmission in shops with social distancing, nor has there been any outbreak in this environment up to this point.

(My bold) It's the social distancing issue that irritates me when shopping. I'm not too enamoured about wearing a face covering when out shopping - I've used one a couple of times, but then got the issue of my glasses steaming up etc. However, if that is the short-term way forward then so be it - just to avoid irking the local constabulary.

No, my real point is about those that traipse around a shop wearing a face covering, but ignoring social distancing, as though their face covering suddenly makes them immune from all the ills on this earth. Then they stand there dithering and getting in the way. Perhaps a face covering does help protect others from you, but it's the 'others' that are sometimes the problem.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I’m sorry, but that makes a complete nonsense of the whole thing. If it’s for safety, the people who are in the shops most need masks most. So either they are all talking rubbish, or the masks are to make people feel safer, or it’s about continuing to control the population. Or a combination.

It is a tacit admission that masks are no longer about safety (if they ever were). They are likely to prevent a handful of infections at most given how poorly most people wear them. They will probably cause many more infections than they prevent because of the unsanitary manner in which most people are forced to use them, having no proper means to dispose of single use ones, or to sanitarily apply and remove reusable ones.

Masks may have had some value earlier on in the pandemic but they are no more than a gesture intended to allay the fears of vulnerable people and the anger of locktivists. They will be effective in neither regard, because vulnerable people will associate a mask-compulsory supermarket as dangerous, and locktivists won't be happy until we're all chained up in our beds with masks glued to our faces.

The whole purpose of this new ruling is to pander to public opinion. We have been going to supermarkets throughout this pandemic, earlier in which cases were much more prevalent. If you are sure that wearing a mask in a shop reduces the spread of the virus please post a link to one case / story - just one will be enough - where a shop in this country has been identified as a source of a covid outbreak.

There can be no doubt that supermarkets and shops will have been the source of some outbreaks, or at least individual cases. They were pretty much the only place most people were near other households during the end of March and beginning of April, and yet cases were still increasing (and many more infections still happening).

But they are now just a minority of the places where people could be infected, and the absolute number of cases means that mandating masks is simply a waste of time.

 

[ashkeba]

Well, yes, but most of that is already happening now, and we're still effectively in the EU. It has always been the case in the UK that a party that can command a reasonably-sized majority in the House of Commons can run an effective dictatorship. The current lot are just being a lot more brazen about it.

1. Wow. So Vote Leave fibbed about the UK not having control on anything? That's scandalous.
2. I suspect it has always been the case about public health to allow fast reactions that save lives, like how public health in Germany sees its component states acting individually quickly and sorting out the differences later. But Boris does not seem to understand "fast" and has taken between 5 and 14 days to introduce many measures.
3. Even if we are still effectively in the EU, if the UK breaks any commitments, almost no correction will be ordered before it leaves completely now anyway. It takes the EU courts years to act and even the EC months. Effectively, Boris has total control.

 

[joncombe]

Opinion polls disagree so far. See above for yougov one.

One does though I wonder how many people knew it even existed? However if the majority of the public thought it was a good idea and we should be wearing face coverings already in shops, then we'd expect the majority of people were already doing so and this change was to get the minority that wern't to comply. In my experience when shopping it is around 15-20% of shoppers currently wearing a face covering. That either means the majority of the public don't agree or that they do agree but think it doesn't apply to them, only to other people.

 

[Skymonster]

There can be no doubt that supermarkets and shops will have been the source of some outbreaks, or at least individual cases. They were pretty much the only place most people were near other households during the end of March and beginning of April, and yet cases were still increasing (and many more infections still happening).

Go on then if you are so sure, cite one - just one will do - case in evidence where shops have been found to be the source of outbreak of the infection. I look forward to seeing the link posted on this thread.

 

[ashkeba]

It is a tacit admission that masks are no longer about safety (if they ever were). They are likely to prevent a handful of infections at most given how poorly most people wear them. They will probably cause many more infections than they prevent because of the unsanitary manner in which most people are forced to use them, having no proper means to dispose of single use ones, or to sanitarily apply and remove reusable ones.

Why do anti maskers keep calling the public stupid? Most are doing a good job with masks, reading the instructions, not touching them, removing by the straps, putting them in a plastic bag and so on. Some government adverts would help, but I think Boris is more interested in confusing people than protecting them.

 

[ashkeba]

One does though I wonder how many people knew it even existed? However if the majority of the public thought it was a good idea and we should be wearing face coverings already in shops, then we'd expect the majority of people were already doing so and this change was to get the minority that wern't to comply. In my experience when shopping it is around 15-20% of shoppers currently wearing a face covering. That either means the majority of the public don't agree or that they do agree but think it doesn't apply to them, only to other people.

Or maybe they are fearful that they are alone and will be considered a scary cat or a communist like in all the reportage coverage of the USA which seems rather too forwards on UK televised news. If anyone sees a survey asking people why they don't cover their face, please share it here.

 

[BJames]

One does though I wonder how many people knew it even existed? However if the majority of the public thought it was a good idea and we should be wearing face coverings already in shops, then we'd expect the majority of people were already doing so and this change was to get the minority that wern't to comply. In my experience when shopping it is around 15-20% of shoppers currently wearing a face covering. That either means the majority of the public don't agree or that they do agree but think it doesn't apply to them, only to other people.

I found out about the poll on here. I don't see these polls floating around my socials much at all. As you say, how come 70% or whatever it is think it's necessary yet barely anyone's wearing them in stores? These figures don't match up. I'd expect maybe a 10% difference but there are more people not wearing coverings in shops now than are wearing them, and this just doesn't match the polls.

Why do anti maskers keep calling the public stupid? Most are doing a good job with masks, reading the instructions, not touching them, removing by the straps, putting them in a plastic bag and so on. Some government adverts would help, but I think Boris is more interested in confusing people than protecting them.

Not my experience to be honest. Most people are touching masks and removing them constantly, and certainly not putting them in a plastic bag! Straight into their pocket after, or straight out of their pocket before getting on a train.

 

[ashkeba]

Go on then if you are so sure, cite one - just one will do - case in evidence where shops have been found to be the source of outbreak of the infection. I look forward to seeing the link posted on this thread.

Where are the sources of any UK coronavirus infection published, please? I only remember seeing one saying which countries cases were imported from and a few high profile factory lockdowns.

 

[Bantamzen]

Why do anti maskers keep calling the public stupid? Most are doing a good job with masks, reading the instructions, not touching them, removing by the straps, putting them in a plastic bag and so on. Some government adverts would help, but I think Boris is more interested in confusing people than protecting them.

Really? I would say that at least a quarter of the people I've personally seen wearing masks for any reasonable period of time have either been fiddling with them or wearing below the nose or chin. Case in point, I went for a meal on Friday and all of the staff were wearing masks, and by the end of the meal none wear wearing them correctly.

 

[BJames]

Or maybe they are fearful that they are alone and will be considered a scary cat or a communist like in all the reportage coverage of the USA which seems rather too forwards on UK televised news. If anyone sees a survey asking people why they don't cover their face, please share it here.

That may account for some. But not all. The difference is too great. A huge minority wear coverings now, but according to the polls a huge majority want them to be compulsory. I rather suspect that not 1 in every 2 people are worried about wearing face coverings but want to wear one.

 

[ashkeba]

Not my experience to be honest. Most people are touching masks and removing them constantly, and certainly not putting them in a plastic bag! Straight into their pocket after, or straight out of their pocket before getting on a train.

Can you see definitely that there is no plastic bag lining the pocket?

But your experience is different to mine. Because of changes to work, I am not using trains much now.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Go on then if you are so sure, cite one - just one will do - case in evidence where shops have been found to be the source of outbreak of the infection. I look forward to seeing the link posted on this thread.

It doesn't make good news to say "1 person infected with Covid whilst going about their daily shopping last week in Bloggstown". But as I say, the fact that people will have been infected in supermarkets doesn't mean that masks are the solution, let alone worthy of prescription.

Why do anti maskers keep calling the public stupid? Most are doing a good job with masks, reading the instructions, not touching them, removing by the straps, putting them in a plastic bag and so on. Some government adverts would help, but I think Boris is more interested in confusing people than protecting them.

It doesn't take long whilst people-watching somewhere that masks are mandatory, before you find someone constantly adjusting their mask, putting it in their pocket and then wiping their nose or face, dropping them. It's simply not something that can be done in an effective and clean way in everyday life, as opposed to the operating theatre room. As for plastic bags, I've seen only a tiny percentage of mask wearers adopting them.

 

[ashkeba]

Really? I would say that at least a quarter of the people I've personally seen wearing masks for any reasonable period of time have either been fiddling with them or wearing below the nose or chin. Case in point, I went for a meal on Friday and all of the staff were wearing masks, and by the end of the meal none wear wearing them correctly.

A quarter messing it up still means most are getting it right. Even most of those quarter are probably low risk mess ups making it a net benefit.

I wouldn't eat there again. It sounds like training and management are inadequate for this health crisis. There will always be a wide range of competence and hopefully market forces will sort it out.

 

[Skymonster]

Where are the sources of any UK coronavirus infection published, please? I only remember seeing one saying which countries cases were imported from and a few high profile factory lockdowns.

So you don't think that an outbreak that originated in a supermarket or shop would be less "high profile" than those that have been reported in factories or individual pubs. Come on - the media would be all over it if a shop was shut down due to it being identified as the source of an infects. I didn't ask for official sources - I asked for just one example to be cited which could easily be from a news report. Perhaps there are none? Or maybe such cases are being deliberately hushed up???

 

[BJames]

Can you see definitely that there is no plastic bag lining the pocket?

But your experience is different to mine. Because of changes to work, I am not using trains much now.

Not really convinced by that. Do people line their pockets with plastic bags? If a plastic bag is small enough to fit in your pocket a) you'd probably be able to see it, and b) it's incredibly likely that you would need to take the bag out of the pocket to put the mask in, to then put back in your pocket.

True. Although I'm also referring to people who are shopping with masks. Don't get me wrong - there are some people who are storing masks correctly and putting them on correctly. I'm just not convinced it's as many as you think, or indeed the media thinks.

 

[baz962]

Watch out for people demanding anyone in a house with more than one person be forced to wear them indoors. I've seen that a few times now.

Except that it really cannot be enforced. I'm sure the police won't be peering through the window.

 

[adc82140]

That either means the majority of the public don't agree or that they do agree but think it doesn't apply to them, only to other people.

Ah, the Cummings and Ferguson effect

 

[trebor79]

Opinion polls disagree so far. See above for yougov one.

Polls like that are highly likely to be biased as there are no controls on the demographics etc of who is filling it in. Probably been pushed by the mask mob on social media.
If there was actually such high support for this, then we'd have seen a similar level of voluntary mask wearing since it became recommended months ago. Less than 5% round here wear masks. To suggest a majority of folk want them mandated, but won't actually wear them voluntarily is ridiculous.
Let's forget about daft opinion polls and look at what people actually do. They don't wear masks unless compelled, same happened with public transport. People don't want to wear these things.

I might cut eyeholes in a paper bag and wear that, for a laugh. It'll be less uncomfortable than a soggy bit of cloth clamped to my face.

 

[bramling]

Why do anti maskers keep calling the public stupid? Most are doing a good job with masks, reading the instructions, not touching them, removing by the straps, putting them in a plastic bag and so on. Some government adverts would help, but I think Boris is more interested in confusing people than protecting them.

This absolutely isn’t the case on transport. Misuse is absolutely rife.

 

[ashkeba]

So you don't think that an outbreak that originated in a supermarket or shop would be less "high profile" than those that have been reported in factories or individual pubs. Come on - the media would be all over it if a shop was shut down due to it being identified as the source of an infects. I didn't ask for official sources - I asked for just one case to be cited which could easily be a news report. Perhaps there are none? Or maybe such cases are being deliberately hushed up???

Yes, this is a difficult question, isn't it: what possible reason would news media largely funded by advertising by shops and products sold in shops have to be reluctant to report suspected cases of transmission in shops rather than factories that have different names to the products they make?

 

[BJames]

Except that it really cannot be enforced. I'm sure the police won't be peering through the window.

Exactly. Any talk of wearing masks in your own home is nonsense, if they ever went down that route and you're really, seriously, genuinely worried you just close your blinds. Nobody could ever tell you otherwise. And I'm highly confident that recommending the wearing of masks in your house if other households are there will be swiftly ignored. Anyone concerned enough won't invite others round to their house anyway.

 

[Non Multi]

Except that it really cannot be enforced. I'm sure the police won't be peering through the window.

Plenty of shops have a cardboard cut out officer to deter thieves, maybe they'll be upgraded to hand out £100 fines too.

 

[BJames]

This absolutely isn’t the case on transport. Misuse is absolutely rife.

The favourite seems to be the "chin-guard" at the moment - let's put it on so staff can see us, then take it off when nobody's walking through the train. A lot more people than I expected have been doing this. Easy to slip back up into place anyway.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Except that it really cannot be enforced. I'm sure the police won't be peering through the window.

I don't doubt the police will be enforcing it in places. No doubt just as poorly and incompetently as the officer stopping a shopper for buying 'non essential items' some months ago.

 

[trebor79]

Watch out for people demanding anyone in a house with more than one person be forced to wear them indoors. I've seen that a few times now.

Except that it really cannot be enforced. I'm sure the police won't be peering through the window.

But wearing masks outside could be enforced and will no doubt be the mask mobs next target.
F-that if I it happens. I just won't do it, they can lock me up because I won't pay the fine either.

 

[Bantamzen]

A quarter messing it up still means most are getting it right. Even most of those quarter are probably low risk mess ups making it a net benefit.

I wouldn't eat there again. It sounds like training and management are inadequate for this health crisis. There will always be a wide range of competence and hopefully market forces will sort it out.

The figure will be higher if that is was I observed. In reality I would say the figure would be more like 70-75%, maybe even higher. People aren't robots & won't always remember not to touch their face, which is effectively is what is being asked of them.