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RSSB looking at possible extension of 3rd rail electrification

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HSTEd

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It's sadly not as simple as comparing rated power - a Class 92 consumes more energy than a Class 700 despite having the same rated power, it's simple physics, the mass of a container train is considerably greater than a fully laden Class 700 and the drag is vastly greater. If you're in the business of working such things out, you can calculate the amount of power needed to move one tonne of train one mile which will give you a kWh figure.

The amount of energy consumed is not the problem.
What concerns us is the peak power draw on the substations in the installation.

If the substation runs flat out at its rated output but never exceeds it's rated output, this is a tenable situation.
If the substation exceeds its rated output and trips, this is untenable. How much energy it actually delivered is of little consequence.

Freight trains regularly operate over this route requiring no more than 2.2MW at rail power.
There is no reason that they cannot continue to do so.
The idea of retaining and strengthening the existing DC supply between Basingstoke and Southampton was considered, given the complexity of converting the route to AC OLE (remembering it's being planned for freight purposes, so the route clearance needs to remain unchanged or be improved) but couldn't be made to work.

Has any work on this been done since the magical days when the HOPS train made replacing third rail with 25kV cheaper than renewals?

EDIT:

Just for fun I went and looked how many freight trains actually ran through Worting Junction today (or are actually projected to run).

It was 15 in each direction. Last friday it was 18.
 
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Ashley Hill

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So the only freight will benefit from OHLE in the Basing area. What class of unit is proposed to operate RDG-BSK? A 5 car IET will not fit in the bay at Basing and would be a waste of resources.
 

hwl

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The amount of energy consumed is not the problem.
What concerns us is the peak power draw on the substations in the installation.

If the substation runs flat out at its rated output but never exceeds it's rated output, this is a tenable situation.
If the substation exceeds its rated output and trips, this is untenable. How much energy it actually delivered is of little consequence.

Freight trains regularly operate over this route requiring no more than 2.2MW at rail power.
There is no reason that they cannot continue to do so.


Has any work on this been done since the magical days when the HOPS train made replacing third rail with 25kV cheaper than renewals?

EDIT:

Just for fun I went and looked how many freight trains actually ran through Worting Junction today (or are actually projected to run).

It was 15 in each direction. Last friday it was 18.
Substation duty cycles also matter as regards sufficient cooling and ditching residual heat, this is where the average load (and hence heat) does matter. The same substation could attract different ratings based on different duty cycles.

Traction motors are some what similar with short term and continuous ratings, the former being higher until it gets a bit warm and resistances too high.

In the goo ole days the staff of the south western division of Southern region managed the tripping issue in the peaks using cut to length scaffold planks so the breakers couldn't move, they just redefined tenable!

The performance of 66s on the long uphill from So'ton to Wootton is some what underwhelming and could do with "more power" in the word of Jeremy Clarkson. (One reason for the existence of the 70's)
 

JonathanH

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So the only freight will benefit from OHLE in the Basing area. What class of unit is proposed to operate RDG-BSK? A 5 car IET will not fit in the bay at Basing and would be a waste of resources.
Reading to Basingstoke is due to receive 769s if they are delivered one day. It wouldn't exactly be difficult to allocate 387s if the OHLE was fitted.
 

Richard Scott

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Did I dream it or was part of the route from Waterloo to Southampton upgraded to 850V to try and overcome demand issue?
 

Philip Phlopp

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The obvious thing to do is convert Basingstoke to Southampton to OHLE as phase 1, then continue the project along to Weymouth as phase 2a, whilst firing off phase 2b to string up the OHLE from Basingstoke to Southampton via Salisbury. You're all set then to continue on in a follow up project from Salisbury towards Bristol, either all the way to meet the planned GW project limits at Thingley Junction (which we can hope will eventually get extended to Bristol proper via Bath), or as far as Westbury to meet a project to wire up Newbury to Thingley.

There are political considerations - it's somewhat insensitive to tell Salisbury and Exeter that they cannot have an electrified rail service whilst Southampton which already has an electrified rail service has money spent on it changing it from 750V DC to 25kV AC.

The amount of energy consumed is not the problem.
What concerns us is the peak power draw on the substations in the installation.

If the substation runs flat out at its rated output but never exceeds it's rated output, this is a tenable situation.
If the substation exceeds its rated output and trips, this is untenable. How much energy it actually delivered is of little consequence.

Freight trains regularly operate over this route requiring now more than 2.2MW at rail power.
There is no reason that they cannot continue to do so.

Has any work on this been done since the magical days when the HOPS train made replacing third rail with 25kV cheaper than renewals?

The problem is when substation output is exceeded, the available power tends to degrade relatively gracefully. Modern rolling stock is designed to monitor third-rail voltage and compensate acceleration or regenerative braking where possible to manage the situation. That's where the energy consumption of a locomotive becomes an issue. The use of 4MW by an EMU for acceleration lasting a minute is unlikely to cause too much trouble to another unit within the same section, whilst a pair of locomotives both running at 2MW as they maintain line speed is more likely to cause an issue.

The idea surrounding electrification is not to just match diesel haulage, but to provide significant improvements - longer consists, faster acceleration, better point to point performances and greater pathing options.

There's a lot of really good work already done on electrification; most current schemes are coming in on or under budget. Shotts in Scotland was particularly good example thanks to contractor experience, a good client and stable regulations are now leading to some good electrification rates.
 

edwin_m

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Uckfield and Salisbury is going to have a comparative handful of trains, each with comparatively low power draw, running on it.
It won't get pounded by an endless succesion of 12-car 700s or anything like that.
I've already agreed with you that third rail is the best option for Uckfield and similar.

Salisbury is different. It has several trains per hour at up to nine cars, so each one isn't too far off a 700. Because they are fairly widely spaced the substations can be further apart, but this increases the I2R losses and leaves little scope for regeneration unless the substations feed back into the grid - which as far as I know none do on the UK DC network.

Mersyrail has short, slow and frequent trains and stations close together. All four parameters make it ideal for DC, but other places are different.
The obvious thing to do is convert Basingstoke to Southampton to OHLE as phase 1, then continue the project along to Weymouth as phase 2a, whilst firing off phase 2b to string up the OHLE from Basingstoke to Southampton via Salisbury. You're all set then to continue on in a follow up project from Salisbury towards Bristol, either all the way to meet the planned GW project limits at Thingley Junction (which we can hope will eventually get extended to Bristol proper via Bath), or as far as Westbury to meet a project to wire up Newbury to Thingley.
This is the sort of sequence of events that could well arise from a rolling programme of electrification, if the decarbonization strategy says what people are predicting and the government actually stumps up the money. I suggest it's only under such a programme that Salisbury will be electrified, and whatever variation is taken up will inevitably create interfaces to 25kV in that area. Salisbury is a fairly poor candidate to do as a one-off outside such a programme: complication of bi-modes, concern at load on existing supply east of Basingstoke, freight routes not electrified end-to-end, and to cap it all it's not even in the Midlands or North!
 

Dr Hoo

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I note that the new Stadler Euro 6000 Co-Co multi-voltage locomotives for Captrain, for use on standard gauge lines in Spain on typical European freight services are rated at 6.2MW so at least somebody thinks that 2.2MW is a bit skimpy for future needs.

It is easy to imagine several intermodal or aggregate trains in succession taking turns to negotiate the Laverstock triangle (nicely tucked in a dip with 1:140/1:150 gradients either side for a Basingstoke 'liner).
 

Elecman

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In the goo ole days the staff of the south western division of Southern region managed the tripping issue in the peaks using cut to length scaffold planks so the breakers couldn't move
Not sure how that prevents the breaker tripping as the internal contact mechanism operation is independant of the external handles to prevent exactly that. you can lock mcbs to prevent accidental switching off Of critical supplies like fire alarms sprinkler pumps etc but they will always trip under fault
 

HSTEd

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Not sure how that prevents the breaker tripping as the internal contact mechanism operation is independant of the external handles to prevent exactly that. you can lock mcbs to prevent accidental switching off Of critical supplies like fire alarms sprinkler pumps etc but they will always trip under fault

MCBs only do that because they are designed to prevent people from doing precisely what is being suggested.

On the other hand, circuit breakers on warships are deliberately designed such that they can be locked closed.
 

Romsey

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When the "Electric Spine" was promoted by the government, the initial costings didn't include changing all the track circuits from ac to dc between Barton Mill, Salisbury and Totton or conversion to axle counters.
Nor did the government of the day consult the freight companies. From two companies they got the response of "you provide the locos and we'll use them".

Conversion to 850v dc would involve upgrading insulation and/or replacing many miles of cables as well as transformers which had many years of useful life left. On the power supply upgrade for desiro units many substations were upgraded to supply more power and some tp huts were upgraded to substations with extra supply cables from grid supply points.
 

Dr Hoo

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When the "Electric Spine" was promoted by the government, the initial costings didn't include changing all the track circuits from ac to dc between Barton Mill, Salisbury and Totton or conversion to axle counters.
Nor did the government of the day consult the freight companies. From two companies they got the response of "you provide the locos and we'll use them".
In the context of this thread the Electric Spine was promoted over a decade ago when the freight companies had recently invested in new diesels. With the best will in the world it would take another decade to get Reading/ Basingstoke/ Salisbury/ Southampton sorted out with any system of electrification, let alone linking routes north of Didcot and towards Westbury. So an ideal timescale to plan for ordering some new traction for delivery from 2030-ish. But obviously if it is going to need third rail capability, limitations to a handful of trains and nothing more than a couple of MW they need to be told up front.
 

Bald Rick

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Interesting debate.

Meanwhile in the last few days there have been two separate incidents where members of staff have come into contact with live conductor rail. Both are, thankfully, still with us. I am not going to say any more, but it serves as a timely reminder of the risks involved.
 

The Ham

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One thing that we have to remember is that we are aiming for net zero emissions, as such, we should be looking for some more marginal electrification projects.

Especially if it allows us to be a bit slower on the decarbonisation of other things.
 

Ashley Hill

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Interesting debate.

Meanwhile in the last few days there have been two separate incidents where members of staff have come into contact with live conductor rail. Both are, thankfully, still with us. I am not going to say any more, but it serves as a timely reminder of the risks involved.

How do accident figures compare between staff who have continuously worked around 3rd rail all their lives and contractors who have limited experience?
 

Philip Phlopp

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One thing that we have to remember is that we are aiming for net zero emissions, as such, we should be looking for some more marginal electrification projects.

Especially if it allows us to be a bit slower on the decarbonisation of other things.

The problem with marginal schemes is that they take personnel and plant away from other projects. That admittedly less of an issue with 750V DC schemes but they do still require specialist staff, and there's usually some sort of third-rail power supply upgrade or replacement at some stage of development or implementation (and not just around London).
 

mr_jrt

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Conversion to 850v dc would involve upgrading insulation and/or replacing many miles of cables as well as transformers which had many years of useful life left. On the power supply upgrade for desiro units many substations were upgraded to supply more power and some tp huts were upgraded to substations with extra supply cables from grid supply points.
That kit could have a continued useful life on the Uckfield branch, or maybe the North Downs line ;)
 

Dr Hoo

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How do accident figures compare between staff who have continuously worked around 3rd rail all their lives and contractors who have limited experience?
As I have posted before - forgive me if I decline to repeat all the sad details - I had to deal with two electrocutions in quick succession in BR days. The first a nine-year-old schoolboy; the second a very experienced electrified track engineer who was standing right next to me. What the accident figures do confirm is that the third rail can be lethal.
 

Ashley Hill

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As I have posted before - forgive me if I decline to repeat all the sad details - I had to deal with two electrocutions in quick succession in BR days. The first a nine-year-old schoolboy; the second a very experienced electrified track engineer who was standing right next to me. What the accident figures do confirm is that the third rail can be lethal.
So can OHLE if not treated with respect.
 

The Ham

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The problem with marginal schemes is that they take personnel and plant away from other projects. That admittedly less of an issue with 750V DC schemes but they do still require specialist staff, and there's usually some sort of third-rail power supply upgrade or replacement at some stage of development or implementation (and not just around London).

The point I was making wasn't that we should be prioritising marginal schemes over more worthwhile schemes.

Rather that some of the schemes which would otherwise have been discounted will, in time, probably actually get built.

We're already at the point where rail as a whole (i.e. including diesels) is already marginally better than electric cars in terms of emissions on a traction only basis (life cycle is been ahead for some time) and there's a lot more which can be done a lot more easily to get the revisions down further and faster than electric cars can.

One of the big things is more electrification (of any type) and probably part of the shift towards considering more third rail is perhaps a bigger picture view. In that maybe the question is being asked more along the lines of "whilst there is an increased risk of harm from third rail, how does that compare to the level of harm from not getting our emissions down?"

Perhaps with the follow up question "if we allow some infill schemes which are already in third rail areas, where there's limited (ideally no) extra powered depots required and ideally in areas where there's generally less risk of people ending up on the lines, but with a plan for reducing third rail infrastructure slightly longer term, then could the risks be acceptable?"

In that (and this is mostly guesswork on my part, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) in my head the main risk to staff day to day is in the depots where drivers are walking about to get to/from trains


Now whilst there's a risk to maintenance staff, with a lot of work done overnight and within blockades that is reduced. If this was also paired with more restrictive working patterns and extra protection built in the design stage (such as being able to isolate fairly short sections track, having frequent access points to the track, extending working hours so that works can be done more easily overnight with the juice turned off). Especially given that many infill schemes are likely to be on lesser used routes and so wouldn't be subject to the level of maintenance of the lines within the M25.

Add to that the potential for not being in urban areas with some being through fairly rural sections, and therefore the risk of trespass is reduced.

As such although this rail may well be (say) 120 vs 100 for OHLE over a given length with the above lower risks it may fall to an acceptable level. Now whilst OHLE may then also fall on the same measure I suspect that the gap may well have closed a bit.

As such with maybe a decade before any extra third rail installs and then maybe another decade before third rail starts to be replaced by OHLE it could well be that there's only a short period where the overall milage of third rail is (say) 3% more than the current figure before falling to 2% less over the following decade.

To put some numbers to that, there's currently 4,285km of third rail. An extra 1% would be an extra 43 miles, so 3% would be about 130 miles. Without looking at all the schemes which would make sense, that's probably about the right sort of ballpark to do the key infill schemes. (2030 to 2040).

That then would require about 90 miles more to be converted (220 miles) over the following two decades to then got back to the 2% below (2050 onwards). It may well be that it extends beyond that by a decade, but that kind of timeframe.

As such much of the urgent (i.e. to get it done to be net carbon neutral by 2050) should have happened and the conversion to OHLE could then run in parallel with the revival of battery trains.

In doing so there shouldn't be as many "why is electric rail getting replaced when so many other routes need to be electrified" as many of the key routes should be electric anyway, or at the very least battery trains.

Having such a milage limit (even if it's just a goal to keep it to that miles rather than a actual limit) would however mean that it would only be infill schemes. As such projects like Basingstoke to Southampton via Salisbury, and probably to Yeovil as well, would then be OHLE. Even Reading to Gatwick would likely be OHLE from near Guildford to Dorking.

Then the bits which would then likely be converted first would be:
Basingstoke - Southampton
Southampton - Weymouth
Basingstoke - Farnborough
Wokingham - Aldershot
Alton - Aldershot
Ascot - Aldershot
Farnborough - Woking - Guildford
Guildford - Aldershot
Guildford - near Havant
Havant - Southampton
Havant - Portsmouth
Havant - Chichester
Reading - Bracknell

Probably several of them would happen in parallel and there's likely to be other lines in other areas which would also happen, such as from Brighton inwards and each way along the coast and probably some of the lines in Kent as they connect to or are near to HS1.

Brighton could be a good one, as a lot of the trains are already dual voltage due to running through the Thameslink tunnels.
 

edwin_m

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I don't think there's any justification for laying third rail with the intention of later replacing it with OLE all before 2050, except for very short sections. Resources and cash for decarbonization will be stretched to do everything as it is without doing chunks of work twice.

I suspect a decarbonization strategy will include conversion of Basingstoke to Southampton for the freight, but little if any other conversion. The infill sections don't carry significant amounts of freight so that is not a reason to consider conversion on those sections. A wider programme of conversion could be looked at after 2050, as there should be plenty of workforce available with electrification skills and less work for them.

One area for temporary solutions might be to introduce battery or hydrogen trains on routes where they are suitable and OLE is the best solution financially but there aren't the resources to deliver it by 2050. Battery or hydrogen doesn't require infrastructure work except for charging/filling locations which could also be used for trains on other routes. The trains themselves, if not life-expired or technologically obsolete, could also be deployed elsewhere when electrification was completed sometime after 2050 or converted to straight electric.
 

Camden

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Interesting debate.

Meanwhile in the last few days there have been two separate incidents where members of staff have come into contact with live conductor rail. Both are, thankfully, still with us. I am not going to say any more, but it serves as a timely reminder of the risks involved.
Do you have the published details of these, so the context can be understood?

I think it ought to be borne in mind the the thread is to discuss the government's attempt to find an innovative supplier who can mitigate against the risk of contact, to facilitate network extensions. Rather than the conversations that appears to have dominated the thread instead (those who want to abolish Merseyrail third rail, and those with other ideas of serving lines)!
 

Fincra5

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Seems to be the sensible answer is to use 3rd Rail for the 5% remaining of the Southern Network, so Uckfield and the Marshlink.

Perhaps Reading to Redhill, Gap Filling... although it needs power upgrades from the grid.

OHLE sewms sensible for other schemes but depends on cost, as the AC equipment would also have to be added to trains.

At the end of the day both Power Systems have safety issues. It seems mental to have Very small sections at OHLE, requiring DV units.
 

The Ham

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I don't think there's any justification for laying third rail with the intention of later replacing it with OLE all before 2050, except for very short sections. Resources and cash for decarbonization will be stretched to do everything as it is without doing chunks of work twice.

I suspect a decarbonization strategy will include conversion of Basingstoke to Southampton for the freight, but little if any other conversion. The infill sections don't carry significant amounts of freight so that is not a reason to consider conversion on those sections. A wider programme of conversion could be looked at after 2050, as there should be plenty of workforce available with electrification skills and less work for them.

One area for temporary solutions might be to introduce battery or hydrogen trains on routes where they are suitable and OLE is the best solution financially but there aren't the resources to deliver it by 2050. Battery or hydrogen doesn't require infrastructure work except for charging/filling locations which could also be used for trains on other routes. The trains themselves, if not life-expired or technologically obsolete, could also be deployed elsewhere when electrification was completed sometime after 2050 or converted to straight electric.

I know you didn't quite my post, but just for clarification I agree with your post, with the trail of conversation prior to 2050 probably only being Basingstoke to Southampton.
 

mr_jrt

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...what about Weymouth? ...or are you thinking the whole Southampton area should be dual electrified? ...because I can see that getting expensive, fast.
 

corfield

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Seems to be the sensible answer is to use 3rd Rail for the 5% remaining of the Southern Network, so Uckfield and the Marshlink.

Perhaps Reading to Redhill, Gap Filling... although it needs power upgrades from the grid.

OHLE sewms sensible for other schemes but depends on cost, as the AC equipment would also have to be added to trains.

At the end of the day both Power Systems have safety issues. It seems mental to have Very small sections at OHLE, requiring DV units.
But we have DV units. And 3rd rail is clearly many times less safe as well as far less efficient.
It is mental to keep building it.
 
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