Train branding after the Williams Review

[Bletchleyite]

You could always brand HS2 services as HS2.

Would DB mind us using InterCityExpress? After all, they nicked InterCity from us.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

For the WCP:

If still Avanti, then Avanti West Coast (WCML) and Avanti Rapido (HS2)?

If there are to be changes, then say, LMS (WCML) and LMS Highspeed (HS2)?

I don't understand why there would be any change, other than a transitional interim. The entire ICWC service will change to HS2, which is unlike Southeastern's HS1 where a traditional service exists. No differentiating features would be required, and could actually fragment the brand.

 

[mmh]

One thing in favour of the HS2 name is that it is already widely known, albeit not entirely for positive reasons. There's customer recognition of it that commercial brands would due for, years before it exists. Avanti will never achieve the same, no matter how long the name's used.

 

[cactustwirly]

For the WCP:

If still Avanti, then Avanti West Coast (WCML) and Avanti Rapido (HS2)?

If there are to be changes, then say, LMS (WCML) and LMS Highspeed (HS2)?

It won't be LMS, for the hundredth time on this forum, LMS isn't a good brand!
Most likely to be West Coast trains or something like that

 

[ThameslinkUser]

One thing in favour of the HS2 name is that it is already widely known

I think it's good to have a distinct difference from construction and operation. Crossrail could certainly benefit from a semi-fresh slate in the public's mind as the Elizabeth Line, distinguishing it from the construction and its poor perception.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here's an idea - "Rail England", with Regional, Regional Express and InterCity branding. And of course the double arrow, ideally the modern looking version in a circle.

(I doubt Wales or Scotland would allow the bringing back of "BR", though "National Rail" might work).

 

[ThameslinkUser]

(I doubt Wales or Scotland would allow the bringing back of "BR").

I'm sure they'll be ecstatic about further division of the UK. Cross-border "Rail England" services will work a charm for the Scottish and Welsh tourism boards.

 

[MarkyT]

For the WCP:

If still Avanti, then Avanti West Coast (WCML) and Avanti Rapido (HS2)?

If there are to be changes, then say, LMS (WCML) and LMS Highspeed (HS2)?

Interesting! I like Rapido. Anything LMS branded though must surely also include the Midland mainline and Birmingham - Gloucester services! On the same basis if HS2 is thought of as the new Great Central perhaps it ought to be part of LNER!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Trenitalia were still involved - Avanti Frecce!

 

[mmh]

Here's an idea - "Rail England", with Regional, Regional Express and InterCity branding. And of course the double arrow, ideally the modern looking version in a circle.

(I doubt Wales or Scotland would allow the bringing back of "BR", though "National Rail" might work).

Very astute observation. National Rail would perhaps be accepted with protestations from the usual suspects, it has the advantage of already sort of being in use. British Rail would cause all sorts of nonsense no doubt.

 

[mmh]

! I like Rapido

I suspect I'm showing my childhood era if I say I can't say rapido not in a silly exaggerated "foreign" voice...

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I don't understand why there would be any change, other than a transitional interim. The entire ICWC service will change to HS2, which is unlike Southeastern's HS1 where a traditional service exists. No differentiating features would be required, and could actually fragment the brand.

This doesn't seem to do the Southeastern brand any harm with it offering Javelin for HS1.

I didn't realise that Avanti was to shift over its operations from WCML to HS2, I thought it would be running both with HS2 as a luxury choice? Where does that leave Avanti's North Wales services which likely wouldn't link in to the HS2 line?

If Avanti are to abandon the WCML for HS2 , then this means LNR are to take over all WCML routes including North Wales? Anyone feel free to correct this?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Very astute observation. National Rail would perhaps be accepted with protestations from the usual suspects, it has the advantage of already sort of being in use. British Rail would cause all sorts of nonsense no doubt.

The Scots & Welsh aren't really in a position to complain as ScotRail runs to Carlisle and AWC, XC, LNER all run into Scotland. Ditto for TfW going to Birmingham & Manchester with the likes of GWR, XC, AWC into Wales. I don't see the fuss with ScotRail or TfW operating in England then "Rail England" should go into Scotland & Wales, as the Austrian OBB travels extensively outside Austria, then tough to the nationalists.

 

[mmh]

This doesn't seem to do the Southeastern brand any harm with it offering Javelin for HS1.

I didn't realise that Avanti was to shift over its operations from WCML to HS2, I thought it would be running both with HS2 as a luxury choice? Where does that leave Avanti's North Wales services which likely wouldn't link in to the HS2 line?

If Avanti are to abandon the WCML for HS2 , then this means LNR are to take over all WCML routes including North Wales? Anyone feel free to correct this?

Chester and North Wales will be run down the classic WCML using the 80x's on order for it. There'll likely be other long distance services - the fast lines north of Rugby aren't going to turn into 1tph.

 

[MarkyT]

I suspect I'm showing my childhood era if I say I can't say rapido not in a silly exaggerated "foreign" voice...

Same here! Presented by Antoine de Caunes. Here's a still from the opening titles "Rap Rap Rapeeedo" That's the typeface sorted then!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

This doesn't seem to do the Southeastern brand any harm with it offering Javelin for HS1.

That's solely for differentiation from the traditional services into South London.

I didn't realise that Avanti was to shift over its operations from WCML to HS2, I thought it would be running both with HS2 as a luxury choice? Where does that leave Avanti's North Wales services which likely wouldn't link in to the HS2 line?

The entire point of HS2 is to take Avanti services off WCML entirely to release capacity for freight/ local services. They'll link up to the existing network at Birmingham & Crewe for Phase 1, this will allow the Welsh, and Scottish services to continue seamlessly.

If Avanti are to abandon the WCML for HS2 , then this means LNR are to take over all WCML routes including North Wales? Anyone feel free to correct this?

Chester and North Wales will be run down the classic WCML using the 80x's on order for it. There'll likely be other long distance services - the fast lines north of Rugby aren't going to turn into 1tph.

See the above. As far as I'm aware, 805/ 807 units are only for a shorter term to ensure they can meet franchise obligations of cutting down on emissions. I'm happy to be corrected on this matter, if this has changed.

 

[HSTEd]

(I doubt Wales or Scotland would allow the bringing back of "BR", though "National Rail" might work).

They are in no position to stop it.
Such a body would operate rail services in just as many of the nations of the United Kingdom as BR ever did. That being three out of four.

British rail would operate services across the island of Great Britain.

Scotland may be desperate to avoid accepting that that is what the island is called, but reality doesn't bend to the will of the SNP.

 

[MarkyT]

They are in no position to stop it.
Such a body would operate rail services in just as many of the nations of the United Kingdom as BR ever did. That being three out of four.

British rail would operate services across the island of Great Britain.

Scotland may be desperate to avoid accepting that that is what the island is called, but reality doesn't bend to the will of the SNP.

An imposition of a 'British' branding by Westminster after so many years of a distinct Scotrail identity is hardly likely to foster a continued sense of Unity in the Kingdom among the natives north of the border. Of course there will continue to be British companies working over the border into Scotland, but those operations wholly in Scotland very neatly fit into a separate division that I can't ever see losing its unique Scottish flavour. The franchise award process is under control of the Scottish government now anyway, so it is probably up to them as to how they wish to proceed post-Williams, with their own concession based contract perhaps, or maybe they could find a way to take operations in house.

 

[HSTEd]

An imposition of a 'British' branding by Westminster after so many years of a distinct Scotrail identity is hardly likely to foster a continued sense of Unity in the Kingdom among the natives north of the border. Of course there will continue to be British companies working over the border into Scotland, but those operations wholly in Scotland very neatly fit into a separate division that I can't ever see losing its unique Scottish flavour. The franchise award process is under control of the Scottish government now anyway, so it is probably up to them as to how they wish to proceed post-Williams, with their own concession based contract perhaps, or maybe they could find a way to take operations in house.

I thought we were referring to BR branding covering only services controlled from London.
Ie everything but TfW, Merseyrail, Scotrail and Tfl.

Scotrail has existed as a brand for a *very* long time.
Abolishing it would be a bad idea anyway.

At most it would be a British Rail service operated in consultation with, and paid for by, the Scottish ministers.

 

[corfield]

HS2 as a new “InterCity” makes a lot of sense given the network and services are explicitly to connect the principle cities.
A sort of Crossrail to Elizabeth Line fresh branding is likely and IC has pedigree, isn’t in use, doesn’t create national issues and describes it.
Maybe as suggested the Express suffix to reflect the high speed aspect and distinguish from other IC type services.

overall some enduring names and a slower kaliedoscope of colours would be a good thing, with operators on the “West Cost by Xxx” as suggested seems a sensible outcome.

An overarching organisation could just be RailGB or RailUK depending on what it has oversight of, or UKRail (better acronym than RUK).
As a wildcard, drawing on the mail perhaps Royal Rail(ways), although a bit passe and crawling really although plenty of Royal Name connections on trains and classes.

Drawing on the NHS and the Enquiries line, National Rail Service - the national gives a lot of flex on what nation(s) it does/n’t cover.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Royal Railway" is a brand already used in Cambodia, FWIW.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

For the WCP:

If still Avanti, then Avanti West Coast (WCML) and Avanti Rapido (HS2)?

If there are to be changes, then say, LMS (WCML) and LMS Highspeed (HS2)?

Why not just use Avanti High Speed as the name for HS2

 

[PTR 444]

Why not just use Avanti High Speed as the name for HS2

Or use it for both HS1 and HS2. That way you have a coherent identity for all high-speed services in Britain. Could work as something like this:

Avanti Southeast: All existing Southeastern high speed services.
Avanti Northwest: HS2 services from London to Birmingham and those on the phase 2 western branch.
Avanti Northeast: HS2 services using the phase 2b eastern branch.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Or use it for both HS1 and HS2. That way you have a coherent identity for all high-speed services in Britain. Could work as something like this:

Avanti Southeast: All existing Southeastern high speed services.
Avanti Northwest: HS2 services from London to Birmingham and those on the phase 2 western branch.
Avanti Northeast: HS2 services using the phase 2b eastern branch.

Avanti does not run on HS1?????????

 

[mmh]

Avanti is merely a, frankly, here today, gone tomorrow meaningless brand of a commercial consortium. If we were to have fixed, government mandated names for different operations in different regions why would that government have an interest in retaining it? If they wanted a non-regional name for whatever reason they'd create their own, just like with countless examples in the past.

 

[Taunton]

Nothing is more important, obviously, than what livery the trains are going to be painted in.

Isn't that the attitude that newly appointed TOCs have always taken?

Actually the most important thing of all has always been ripping off the old TOCs branding from everything. Midnight. Handover. Rip-rip-rip. It's just like dogs marking their territory.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Isn't that the attitude that newly appointed TOCs have always taken?

Not particularly. SWR have prioritised interior refurbishments, EMR have only one, Avanti have two (with more in interim branding). These have mostly been for press launches.

Actually the most important thing of all has always been ripping off the old TOCs branding from everything. Midnight. Handover. Rip-rip-rip. It's just like dogs marking their territory.

They're legally required to have no branding of the former owner at handover. Most TOCs won't sue over it, but TOCs will still fulfil it to be safe.

 

[tetudo boy]

If the renationalization Is accepted, maybe we could revive the Network SouthEast branding, just making it look more modern.

 

[Domh245]

EMR have only one,

Up to 4 now - 222104 as well as their first 3 170s in the full aubergine, with a smattering more sprinters in an interim livery. Seeing as none of the fleet they inherited is destined to stay, it's a bit pointless for them to get re-liveried!

 

[PTR 444]

Avanti does not run on HS1?????????

Yeah but i’m just saying if the brand goes into government hands, it make sense to apply it to all the high speed services.