Coronavirus precautions: Has the world gone mad?

[Starmill]

Not crossing the road is lower risk as can't get run over if not on road, not going down stairs is lower risk as can't fall down them if not on them; where does all this end?

The cost of standing 2m away from another person on a pavement where there's space to do so? Zero. The cost of never crossing a road again, ever?...

 

[DB]

The cost of standing 2m away from another person on a pavement where there's space to do so? Zero. The cost of never crossing a road again, ever?...

And that's fine if the pavement is wide enough - but many aren't and no doubt many of you will have seen the spectacle of people preferring to walk in front of traffic, or walking down the outside of a line of parked cars, at even more risk from traffic, rather than passing someone on the pavement...

 

[Enthusiast]

And that's fine if the pavement is wide enough

Indeed it is. But that's not good enough for some local authorities. There is at least one that town that I know of (I won't name it but it's in Essex, it begins with C, ends with R, is a garrison town and lies on the A12 and the River Colne) where the local authority has taken to narrow the road to ensure the pavement is wide enough to allow 2m social distancing. Has the world gone mad? I certainly think C*lch**t*r Council has.

 

[DelayRepay]

I have just seen the 'rules' from a local Pick Your Own Strawberry farm posted online. I won't shame the business which, as well as introducing a one-way system, highlight that:

For the time being a visit to ... PYO is not for leisure or socialising it is for essential food retail only.

So, who goes to a PYO strawberry farm for essential food retail?

Rule number 6: There will be no toilet or handwash facilities
Rule number 11: Wash your hands after your visit

I think I will give this farm a wide berth for now.

 

[BJames]

Indeed it is. But that's not good enough for some local authorities. There is at least one that town that I know of (I won't name it but it's in Essex, it begins with C, ends with R, is a garrison town and lies on the A12 and the River Colne) where the local authority has taken to narrow the road to ensure the pavement is wide enough to allow 2m social distancing. Has the world gone mad? I certainly think C*lch**t*r Council has.

My town in North London has decided to cut two lanes down to one to allow for social distancing on a path which really doesn't need expanding! It's not got hundreds of people walking down it and the pavement on the other side of the road is huge. It's causing significant traffic jams as it's a reasonable distance, and now the regular bus users are in their cars, it's a real slowdown.

 

[birchesgreen]

Indeed it is. But that's not good enough for some local authorities. There is at least one that town that I know of (I won't name it but it's in Essex, it begins with C, ends with R, is a garrison town and lies on the A12 and the River Colne) where the local authority has taken to narrow the road to ensure the pavement is wide enough to allow 2m social distancing. Has the world gone mad? I certainly think C*lch**t*r Council has.

My local high street has done the same, i believe a number of high streets in Birmingham are doing the same.

 

[LAX54]

My town in North London has decided to cut two lanes down to one to allow for social distancing on a path which really doesn't need expanding! It's not got hundreds of people walking down it and the pavement on the other side of the road is huge. It's causing significant traffic jams as it's a reasonable distance, and now the regular bus users are in their cars, it's a real slowdown.

Of course the recommendation was: ' Not to be less than 1m from another person for more than 15 mins' I think the 15 min bit has been brushed aside by many people, I assume based on all the stuff they read on FB / Twitter etc

 

[Enthusiast]

Of course the recommendation was: ' Not to be less than 1m from another person for more than 15 mins' I think the 15 min bit has been brushed aside by many people, I assume based on all the stuff they read on FB / Twitter etc

Yes, but the government should tell them not to be so bloody stupid and get the road back to normal.

I notice on another thread which has recently been closed that there is a contention that "nobody wants to return to the old normal." Well everybody I know wants exactly that so one of us is wrong. It is also said that life will never be the same again. Well there have been pandemics in the past and life did return to normal in fairly short order. In fact, life never really changed all that much so not much was needed for life to return to normal. Quite what makes this episode so different is beyond me and I'm firmly convinced that the world has truly gone mad - and the UK seems to have gone more made than most.

 

[Ianno87]

Cambridgshire County Council is closing Mill Road railway bridge in Cambridge to all use, except Buses, Cycles and Pedestrians.

I think it's a good idea, *but* it's being ridiculously rushed through to grab a slice of the emergency active travel fund (work has to start within 8 weeks or something).

 

[MikeWM]

Cambridgshire County Council is closing Mill Road railway bridge in Cambridge to all use, except Buses, Cycles and Pedestrians.

I think it's a good idea, *but* it's being ridiculously rushed through to grab a slice of the emergency active travel fund (work has to start within 8 weeks or something).

I'm very wary of using a crisis to push through changes like this. I'm not sure if I actually agree or not, but it needs adequate consideration.

Other smaller things are more sensible though - I noted yesterday they've erected barriers on the west side of the south end of Bridge Street to give pedestrians more space on what was a horribly narrow pavement. That should have been done ages ago. The road is wide enough to lose a bit.

I wonder if in London they'll remove the appallingly-designed anti-terrorist barriers on the north end of Waterloo Bridge that they only put in a year or two ago! They make the pavement really narrow at a very busy place.

 

[cuccir]

Infection and death rates peaked in the UK in early mid April (ONS) - long before the lockdown could have had any affect.

In the wider community outside hospitals and care homes, it appears that the simple early advice (stay at home if you have symptoms, wash your hands more) were sufficient to turn the tide, without any of the other nonsense that followed.

Well, yes: isn't that the point? I think the highest recorded deaths date was the 8th April, pretty much spot on 2 weeks after the lockdown, which is more or less the lag between infection and deaths (remembering that at the time you couldn't get tested for covid-19 outside of hospitals). Suggesting that the rise was halted by lockdown.

It is possible that the true numbers who have died from Covid19 are being distorted. Not only are those who died from other underlying conditions - but tested positive for Covid19 - included, but the government admit that some deaths ascribed to it (Covid19, not the government) are NOT backed by a positive test result !!

‘A doctor can certify the involvement of COVID19 based on symptoms and clinical findings - a positive test result is not required’

OK, but what are all these people dying of then? What's your other explanation for all the excess deaths? Particuarly when in early March the UK was running 2% lower in terms of the 2015-19 average deaths? Clearly, not every excess death since then has been caused by covid-19: no data source claims so, though we would need to offset those excess deaths caused by lockdown against the deaths that would have occured without it due to a higher infection rate. Still, this is one of the good reasons for exiting lockdown promptly.

Sweden. No lockdown, infection and death rates lower than UK.
If you plot infection rate versus harshness of lockdown, there is no correlation.
Lockdown was a copy cat response to China's lockdown of certain provinces.

For what it's worth, other than thinking we should probably have gone a week or so earlier, I'm not arguing for a harsher lockdown. What I'm arguing against is the notion that the world has suddenly been gripped by madness, and that the residual lockdown measures are unnecessary. We had a middling-level of lockdown by global comparisons, and we probably got it more or less right on that front. Also, it is worth sayign that Sweden did have a signficant level of restrictions: lower than most places, but far from "no lockdown".

This disease overwhelmingly affects elderly - particularly those with underlying conditions - and if the governments had mobilised national resources to protect over 70s both in care homes and in their own homes then they would have had my support - you should have seen police on the doors of care homes, army/TA medical staff/NHS in visible attendance, teams of state organised volunteers tending to those over 70s isolating in their own homes etc. The rest of us should have carried on as normal with sensible precautions - earning the money that pays for the NHS.

There is more logic to this post than to the vast majority on this thread, although it is written with a June 2020 not a March 2020 understanding of how covid-19 works. A version of this plan could have worked, though it's worth noting that excess mortality is identifiable in figures from around age 45 upwards, albeit a much lower and more tolerable leavels. There is no doubt that the government got it wrong in terms of focusing on the NHS and throwing care homes to the dogs. Where I'm not quite as prepared to go is that this notion undermines the whole lockdown, and at the rate of infection in mid-March - also without the knowledge of the disease that we now have with hindsight - it was right to impose some sort of lockdown. I'd hope that any future increase in infections could be met with a smarter and more informed approach that looks more like this.

They seem to sum up the current situation, a complete over reaction to a risk, that is more damaging than the risk itself.

Again, I dont see this. It remains less than 3 months since we entered lockdown, and at the moment the majority of freedoms in England have been restored (with Scotland and Wales slowly following), with most on the cards to return within the next month. The only exception now really is kids being in schools: and I'd join the camp who think we should have got them in, or at least in more, by now, but I do think the concerns against this are legitimate. But beyond that I struggle to see a few craply written signs, a bit of minimal social distancing and a few masks as the great inconvenience many are painting it to be. The economic problems of lockdown are more concerning, but any assessment of these needs to incorporate the economic losses that would have occured with a greater level of infections.

Obviously this is just one report but this does suggest to me that people are tolerating the way things are at the moment because they are expecting that things will be ok in a few months down the line. I think this is where quite a few people I know are at. I am glad to see that the majority think it will be resolved within a year and that a reasonable proportion of the population think it will be solved within 6 months. I'm remaining positive anyway.

I've come around to this way of thinking. We're seeing new treatments emerge, new knowledge as to the disease's smyptoms and impacts, and the very liekly emergence of the first vaccines to the most vulnerable by the end of the calendar year. I think some small measures will be in place until widespread vaccination is possible, but I'm moving more into the camp of thought that sees value in persisting with some measures (to be clear: at a much much lower level than we had in April/May) for what is only one summer. If our understanding of and capacity to treat covid-19 grows between now and October as it has been March and now, we'll see mortality drop away very significantly.

 

[corfield]

Yes, but the government should tell them not to be so bloody stupid and get the road back to normal.

I notice on another thread which has recently been closed that there is a contention that "nobody wants to return to the old normal." Well everybody I know wants exactly that so one of us is wrong. It is also said that life will never be the same again. Well there have been pandemics in the past and life did return to normal in fairly short order. In fact, life never really changed all that much so not much was needed for life to return to normal. Quite what makes this episode so different is beyond me and I'm firmly convinced that the world has truly gone mad - and the UK seems to have gone more made than most.

I think that other poster has more political ideas in mind rather than anything directly Covid related, and is going to be sorely disappointed, if indeed they ever recognise reality.

A freind in Sweden tells me the Swedish think we and others are insane at what we’ve done to ourselves. The numbers seem to suggest they are right.

My council have made a token effort to one way ise pavements with signs on lampposts. Literally no-one was paying attention.

The sad thing is there are (a) hard working people being put up to do this (b) this is what passes for decision making and risk assessment at a widespread level in our authorities. Granted councils have never been bastions of common sense, but some of the stuff appearing is risible.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Brighton and Hove Council have been extremely busy decorating the pavements with the message ‘Give space, keep safe’.
No money to fix potholes in the roads, but they seem to have located a magic money tree to daub graffiti at a regular intervals

 

[corfield]

And that's fine if the pavement is wide enough - but many aren't and no doubt many of you will have seen the spectacle of people preferring to walk in front of traffic, or walking down the outside of a line of parked cars, at even more risk from traffic, rather than passing someone on the pavement...

People are idiots. I had a guy aggressively shouting at people to “coordinate” them walking up peoples’ drives so he could get by on a narrow pavement. Possibly a mental health case but he didn’t take it well when I and others ignored him.
Most people just pragmatically give as much space as is possible, whatever that is, if notbing else, just enough movement to show you’re aware of it and trying. I’ve noticed however even that has gone and people are already nearly back to normal.

 

[trebor79]

This disease overwhelmingly affects elderly - particularly those with underlying conditions - and if the governments had mobilised national resources to protect over 70s both in care homes and in their own homes then they would have had my support - you should have seen police on the doors of care homes, army/TA medical staff/NHS in visible attendance, teams of state organised volunteers tending to those over 70s isolating in their own homes etc. The rest of us should have carried on as normal with sensible precautions - earning the money that pays for the NHS.

The care homes and indeed the elderly generally were neglected - and I didn't see much difference in this between England and Scotland - instead the panic imposition of an economy and therefore ability to pay for the NHS destroying lockdown which saved nobody.

There is more logic to this post than to the vast majority on this thread, although it is written with a June 2020 not a March 2020 understanding of how covid-19 works.

People (me included) were suggesting exactly such an approach before lockdown. It was known from very early on it primarily affected the elderly and sick.

I've come around to this way of thinking. We're seeing new treatments emerge, new knowledge as to the disease's smyptoms and impacts, and the very liekly emergence of the first vaccines to the most vulnerable by the end of the calendar year. I think some small measures will be in place until widespread vaccination is possible, but I'm moving more into the camp of thought that sees value in persisting with some measures (to be clear: at a much much lower level than we had in April/May) for what is only one summer. If our understanding of and capacity to treat covid-19 grows between now and October as it has been March and now, we'll see mortality drop away very significantly.

There will be no vaccines available before the end of the year. Ongoing trials maybe, but no mass vaccination. I think it's 50:50 whether it's even possible to produce an effective vaccine.

Really the whole thing is descending into a joke. Signs in streets and stupid one way pavements and masks on public transport. Queue to get in anywhere, then you get in and the staff aren't social distancing. So it's pointless. Now it's looking very likely Boris is going to let us all go for a pint soon, whilst the schools remain largely closed and people are still being told not to use public transport, even though it continues to run carrying nothing but fresh air. Where the logic in any of that?
I'd rather they just lifted all the restrictions, told the nervous to feel free to wear a mask and ensured there was proper provision of food deliveries to those who genuinely need to shield (due to any purpose, not just COVID) rather than relying on the supermarkets to step up (which I think they have done magnificently).
It's all just getting silly now.

 

[corfield]

There is more logic to this post than to the vast majority on this thread, although it is written with a June 2020 not a March 2020 understanding of how covid-19 works. A version of this plan could have worked, though it's worth noting that excess mortality is identifiable in figures from around age 45 upwards, albeit a much lower and more tolerable leavels. There is no doubt that the government got it wrong in terms of focusing on the NHS and throwing care homes to the dogs. Where I'm not quite as prepared to go is that this notion undermines the whole lockdown, and at the rate of infection in mid-March - also without the knowledge of the disease that we now have with hindsight - it was right to impose some sort of lockdown. I'd hope that any future increase in infections could be met with a smarter and more informed approach that looks more like this.

Except that isn’t June logic, I and many others were saying it in March as it was very clear even then. We got ignored because doom mongering gripped and panic ensued.

The lockdown was and remains excessive, comparisons elsewhere suggest it has not had the effect attributed, and what it has done has come at vast cost.

People (me included) were suggesting exactly such an approach before lockdown. It was known from very early on it primarily affected the elderly and sick.



There will be no vaccines available before the end of the year. Ongoing trials maybe, but no mass vaccination. I think it's 50:50 whether it's even possible to produce an effective vaccine.

Really the whole thing is descending into a joke. Signs in streets and stupid one way pavements and masks on public transport. Queue to get in anywhere, then you get in and the staff aren't social distancing. So it's pointless. Now it's looking very likely Boris is going to let us all go for a pint soon, whilst the schools remain largely closed and people are still being told not to use public transport, even though it continues to run carrying nothing but fresh air. Where the logic in any of that?
I'd rather they just lifted all the restrictions, told the nervous to feel free to wear a mask and ensured there was proper provision of food deliveries to those who genuinely need to shield (due to any purpose, not just COVID) rather than relying on the supermarkets to step up (which I think they have done magnificently).
It's all just getting silly now.

Absolutely. There is no strategy in this, and not even much of a pretence of one now - just kneejerk politics with growing confusion, cynicism (Unions getting a full summer off for many of their salaried people) and the public increasingly ignoring it all.

What is needed is a bold reassessment and some leadership along the “we’ve done this, it has achieved a lot of good, but we now need to move on fast before the damage becomes too ingrained - and get everyone who can, back to normal, whilst continuing to protect those that really need it”.

 

[BJames]

I've come around to this way of thinking. We're seeing new treatments emerge, new knowledge as to the disease's smyptoms and impacts, and the very liekly emergence of the first vaccines to the most vulnerable by the end of the calendar year. I think some small measures will be in place until widespread vaccination is possible, but I'm moving more into the camp of thought that sees value in persisting with some measures (to be clear: at a much much lower level than we had in April/May) for what is only one summer. If our understanding of and capacity to treat covid-19 grows between now and October as it has been March and now, we'll see mortality drop away very significantly.

Ideally and hopefully, as they found last week that dexamethasone was partially effective and would be added into routine treatment, we should have a reduction in the death rate. I'm sure figures will come out in due course.

 

[Yew]

Well, yes: isn't that the point? I think the highest recorded deaths date was the 8th April, pretty much spot on 2 weeks after the lockdown, which is more or less the lag between infection and deaths (remembering that at the time you couldn't get tested for covid-19 outside of hospitals). Suggesting that the rise was halted by lockdown.

I think there is still debate around this, but my understanding was that it was along the lines of 3/4 weeks between infection and death. In a world where we went from "wash your hands and sing happy birthday" to a lockdown, in 8(?) days, that can make a big difference on the assessment of the effectiveness of different measures

 

[LAX54]

Yes, but the government should tell them not to be so bloody stupid and get the road back to normal.

I notice on another thread which has recently been closed that there is a contention that "nobody wants to return to the old normal." Well everybody I know wants exactly that so one of us is wrong. It is also said that life will never be the same again. Well there have been pandemics in the past and life did return to normal in fairly short order. In fact, life never really changed all that much so not much was needed for life to return to normal. Quite what makes this episode so different is beyond me and I'm firmly convinced that the world has truly gone mad - and the UK seems to have gone more made than most.

I have yet to meet anyone who wishes to stay with this media invented 'New Normal' ? in fact everyone has just said, lets get back to normal, and stop the pussyfooting around! It is not just the UK that has gone bonkers, the whole world has, although I agree this 'virus' is a bit nastier than some we have had in the past in 68 we had a bad year and many died, but we carried on as normal, the poulation then was 55 million, we are now 68 million, so obviously more to be affected, the other thing is, that we live longer now, 80's 90's even 100's, many kept alive by various medicines etc which were not around back then, so we all died somewhat earlier.
The longer we hide away from Co-19 then it will just keep bouncing back whenever it can, unless we can mix, spread it around, and obtain some type of immunity from it
Probably find when the Governments etc around the world have their de-briefs, they will say that all the lockdowns were the worst thing they could have done !
The problem we now have is, is the fear factor that many people have around the world, bred by Twitter/FB/24 hr News, you know it's gone potty when you see a person on their own in a car, with blue latex gloves and a mask on their face !
Maybe not a Pandemic, but a World Panpanic ?

Colchester have just brought in COVID 19 DISTANCING ROAD CHANGES, reduced the road widths on the busiest roads, to cater for more pedestrains and bikes, at the same time done away with some of the bus lanes to create the wider path/cycle way, and brought the reduced traffic levels to an almost stanstill due to less road space, and a 20mph restriction on some of ther major roads in the area, heaven help us when traffic gets back to normal !

 

[LAX54]

Given it's absolutely certain the virus was doing the rounds long before anyone noticed and/or admitted it, I bet thousands of people have had it without realising, assuming it was just a cold/flu/winter bug etc.

Where I work, we had many off back in Dec / Jan, and into Feb, with what are now seen as Covid symptoms, but as you say, it was put down to Flu/Winter Bug/Severe Cold etc, they tended to have 7 to10 days off sick, then back to work, some even worked through the 'illness' I recall I had some of the symptons we now have been told of, but not really bad, and carried on at work, as it was just a bug/flu (and maybe it was....maybe it wasn't !)

 

[Gadget88]

Do you have to quarantine if you visit Dublin right now from what I can see you can but thought Ireland would be exempt?

 

[Red Onion]

Do you have to quarantine if you visit Dublin right now from what I can see you can but thought Ireland would be exempt?

It appears so, although entry to the Republic via Northen Ireland is exempt from quarantine.

 

[MikeWM]

in 68 we had a bad year and many died, but we carried on as normal

I've probably made this point already, but I've read political diaries of the time and I don't recall a mention of the 68/69 'Hong Kong' flu at all. It doesn't appear to have been an issue our politicians paid much attention to at all, still less anything remotely like the most all-encompassing society-wrecking apparently-worth-throwing-away-the-entire-economy gargantuan behemoth that we're living through now. They had Woodstock while this was going on - and we went to the Moon!

 

[Journeyman]

Do you have to quarantine if you visit Dublin right now from what I can see you can but thought Ireland would be exempt?

I don't think it applies for just visiting Ireland, but you can't use it as a loophole for travelling further afield as Ireland has it's own quarantine arrangements in place for international arrivals, which you'd have to comply with.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Brighton and Hove Council have been extremely busy decorating the pavements with the message ‘Give space, keep safe’.
No money to fix potholes in the roads, but they seem to have located a magic money tree to daub graffiti at a regular intervalsView attachment 79857

There's a certain irony in that many local councils are pleading poverty and demanding handouts due to funding shortfalls yet they can find the money to waste on putting up loads of totally unnecessary and irrelevant signs on every item of "street furniture" they can find!

I'd suggest that when all this is over that any council found guilty of "excessive signage" should have their funding cut further!

 

[Bobdogs]

I have yet to meet anyone who wishes to stay with this media invented 'New Normal' ? in fact everyone has just said, lets get back to normal, and stop the pussyfooting around! It is not just the UK that has gone bonkers, the whole world has, although I agree this 'virus' is a bit nastier than some we have had in the past in 68 we had a bad year and many died, but we carried on as normal, the poulation then was 55 million, we are now 68 million, so obviously more to be affected, the other thing is, that we live longer now, 80's 90's even 100's, many kept alive by various medicines etc which were not around back then, so we all died somewhat earlier.
The longer we hide away from Co-19 then it will just keep bouncing back whenever it can, unless we can mix, spread it around, and obtain some type of immunity from it
Probably find when the Governments etc around the world have their de-briefs, they will say that all the lockdowns were the worst thing they could have done !
The problem we now have is, is the fear factor that many people have around the world, bred by Twitter/FB/24 hr News, you know it's gone potty when you see a person on their own in a car, with blue latex gloves and a mask on their face !
Maybe not a Pandemic, but a World Panpanic ?

Colchester have just brought in COVID 19 DISTANCING ROAD CHANGES, reduced the road widths on the busiest roads, to cater for more pedestrains and bikes, at the same time done away with some of the bus lanes to create the wider path/cycle way, and brought the reduced traffic levels to an almost stanstill due to less road space, and a 20mph restriction on some of ther major roads in the area, heaven help us when traffic gets back to normal !

So,in trying to save you from C-19, they would rather you be poisoned by the increased exhaust gases produced by crawling traffic.
In that case, is wearing a mask doubly effective?

 

[Scrotnig]

Yes, but the government should tell them not to be so bloody stupid and get the road back to normal.

I notice on another thread which has recently been closed that there is a contention that "nobody wants to return to the old normal." Well everybody I know wants exactly that so one of us is wrong. It is also said that life will never be the same again. Well there have been pandemics in the past and life did return to normal in fairly short order. In fact, life never really changed all that much so not much was needed for life to return to normal. Quite what makes this episode so different is beyond me and I'm firmly convinced that the world has truly gone mad - and the UK seems to have gone more made than most.

Indeed, most countries are making a big play of how they WILL get things back to normal. We seem to be the only ones stating all this is going to last forever and there will be a "new normal". I have to wonder what other agenda they have.

 

[takno]

There's a certain irony in that many local councils are pleading poverty and demanding handouts due to funding shortfalls yet they can find the money to waste on putting up loads of totally unnecessary and irrelevant signs on every item of "street furniture" they can find!

I'd suggest that when all this is over that any council found guilty of "excessive signage" should have their funding cut further!

Councils are likely to have been given specific budgets which they are only allowed to spend on this stuff. Whilst they may often agree that it's pointless, keeping doing it is a way to pay for workers that they can't afford but can't furlough because they are working part time on useful work

 

[Scrotnig]

People (me included) were suggesting exactly such an approach before lockdown. It was known from very early on it primarily affected the elderly and sick.

The problem was, if you pointed that out, you tended to get something like "well my uncle's brother works on the NHS front line and he says there's people under 50 dying of this STAY AT HOME EVERYONE FFS WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE".

This type of response is still happening even now. It has to stop.

 

[kylemore]

Well, yes: isn't that the point? I think the highest recorded deaths date was the 8th April, pretty much spot on 2 weeks after the lockdown, which is more or less the lag between infection and deaths (remembering that at the time you couldn't get tested for covid-19 outside of hospitals). Suggesting that the rise was halted by lockdown.

Whilst it's refreshing to engage with a more moderate pro-lockdownist I just cannot see how a lockdown commencing 23rd March could have had such an effect so quickly.

If lockdown was the cause of the fall in infections and deaths one would expect a 23rd March lockdown to cause infections (positive test/diagnosis - not date of infection which would be unknown obviously) to peak say around 23rd April with deaths around 23rd May - is that not logical?