• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ECML disruption - Welwyn

Status
Not open for further replies.

philjo

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2009
Messages
3,020
Just received an email alert from FCC saying that the wires are down in one of the Welwyn tunnels.
Emergency timetable in operation via Hertford North until at least 20:00, probably for the rest of the day. Limited bus services currently available WGC-Stevenage & for Hertford Loop stations.
WGC-Moorgate- normal service running.
Everything else is diverted non-stop FPK-SVG via Hertford & all East Coast trains are calling at Stevenage (some are terminating/restarting at Peterborough & not running through to London.)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Just received an email alert from FCC saying that the wires are down in one of the Welwyn tunnels.
Emergency timetable in operation via Hertford North until at least 20:00, probably for the rest of the day. Limited bus services currently available WGC-Stevenage & for Hertford Loop stations.
WGC-Moorgate- normal service running.
Everything else is diverted non-stop FPK-SVG via Hertford & all East Coast trains are calling at Stevenage (some are terminating/restarting at Peterborough & not running through to London.)

Correct to a point, ;)

Hertford Loop has now got nothing, no buses as they're required on other jobs and there's no trains so passengers advised to use other means.

NXEA and LUL accepting tickets for Hertford Loop passengers.

I was at Gordon Hill earlier when it all kicked off, got to Enfield Chase and could see the service was non existant so eventually got home by using a train to Liverpool Street from Enfield Town, Liverpool Street to Cambridge and then Cambridge to Peterborough.

Two things I did noticed was that there are no fast services between Liverpool Street and Cambridge like the Cambridge Cruisers on the GN and also how crowded the 317/6 was - talking of WAML services, are the trains really that packed if so I can see why you need longer trains!
 

91101

Member
Joined
25 Oct 2007
Messages
439
They dont have fast services as the route is much longer and serves a lot more intermediate communities than the ECML, and is thus very much focused on the intermediate stations between Liverpool Street and Cambrdige rather than Cambridge itself.

ECML was reopened to traffic at 1945 first trains trhough were 1A44 and 1N16.
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,609
Location
In the cab with the paper
Two things I did noticed was that there are no fast services between Liverpool Street and Cambridge like the Cambridge Cruisers on the GN

Indeed. Even the fastest of our Cambridges are best described as semi-fast. But then the infrastructure does not allow for a truly fast service.

also how crowded the 317/6 was - talking of WAML services, are the trains really that packed if so I can see why you need longer trains!

They do get quite busy, but then the train you were on was probably topped up with a lot of your passengers.

O L Leigh
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,402
Location
Yorkshire
Liverpool St - Cambridge used to have fast trains, until the late 1980s operated by Class 47s I believe. They called at Audley End, and possibly another station but certainly not all the shacks you get now. The fast service switched to ECML when electrification was completed. Audley End has missed out though.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,915
Location
UK
What a mess it was today. A lot of commuters not appreciating the severity of the problem as FCC wasn't given much info.

At 0844 at Hatfield, I was waiting to get the 0846. At around 0850 it literally disappeared from the board. No announcement, no cancellation text or anything. (It would later transpire that it was delayed about 40 minutes, so it wasn't cancelled - it just moved down the list and the current CIS doesn't therefore announce anything). I then checked up and saw the 0902 from Hitchin was stuck at Knebworth - and was gradually getting more overdue.

I went inside to ask someone on the gateline and he didn't know anything (but he knew something had happened) and was checking to see why his pager wasn't saying anything. Another check on the web revealed that there were electrical supply problems, and the 0902 service was now definitely stuck.

By this time, people could see no trains running southbound and were coming in to ask what was happening - and a lot of people were, rightly I guess, moaning that the 0846 simply disappeared. This does show a weakness of the current information system if a train can appear to have been deleted in an instant.

At this point, there was a manual announcement to say there were electrical problems between Potters Bar and Stevenage, followed by the pagers going off to give equally limited info. About 10 minutes later, the announcer said no trains were running either direction.

I hung around waiting for a bus, and then noticed a train going north. So I went back in and and eventually the 0907 from WGC was run some 15 minutes late. It wasn't very busy at all, but everyone was told to get on. Later, I saw the 0846 was run - but was held behind us all the way so there was no point getting off and waiting for it as it caught up.

Anyway - given the circumstances, it wasn't too bad this morning. Anyone north of Welwyn Garden City would have been through hell, until they started to divert via the Hertford Loop. This isn't good for people at stations along the HL though, if they're all closed to let EC, GC etc through.

FCC emailed me during the day and I received a lot of texts, so they did warn people that it would be until around 8pm to fix the wires in the tunnel at Welwyn North. However, they also said trains would run from Moorgate to WGC, with buses from Alexandra Palace to Hertford North - which wasn't quite the case in reality.

When I got upstairs at Old Street, with the trains showing as running to time, we waited and got told about the arrangements. The lady then said the next train southbound was currently at Hornsey - running almost an hour late. Nobody cared as who goes from Old Street to Moorgate?

Alarm bells started to ring. What happens if trains are late to Moorgate? Yes, no trains the other way! 1810 came and went and on the third announcement the lady suddenly added the last bit of vital info - that southbound service was going to form the northbound service to WGC that we were all waiting for.

ARGHHHH! How could she not mention that? Suddenly everyone on the platform went mad (you could hear the anger as everyone sighed, tutted and laughed) and left - as it would now be up to 20-25 minutes to turn it around, and imagine how packed it would be if everyone was waiting at Moorgate for this single train? I could have gone to Moorgate when it came in to get a seat, but opted to take the tube to King's Cross and go St Albans instead.

As usual, FCC always seems to fail to give out information when they need to most. And some members of staff are very bad at giving out information even when they have it.

On Monday, we'll see the posters apologising for the day and on the next forum an acknowledgement that they've got to learn from this - but they were slow to inform staff by pager - and the people at stations apparently get to keep the pagers, while it's mostly the people ON the trains that get the BlackBerrys.. Is that wise?
 
Last edited:

Tom C

Member
Joined
4 Jul 2005
Messages
549
On Monday, we'll see the posters apologising for the day and on the next forum an acknowledgement that they've got to learn from this - but they were slow to inform staff by pager - and the people at stations apparently get to keep the pagers, while it's mostly the people ON the trains that get the BlackBerrys.. Is that wise?

As far as I am aware, the messages sent to the pagers and Blackberries are through Tyrell. If that is the case then the messages being sent out would be the same, the difference is that the Blackberry is more reliable on the train than the pagers were.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
As far as I am aware, the messages sent to the pagers and Blackberries are through Tyrell. If that is the case then the messages being sent out would be the same, the difference is that the Blackberry is more reliable on the train than the pagers were.

That is correct, also note that not everyone is comfortable with the Blackberries and do prefer the pagers.
One main problem with the Blackberries is the constant need to keep entering the internet login detail, when you want info quickly you don't want to keep having to enter a password every few minutes which is why it's not always popular with some staff.
 

Flywaver

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
190
Liverpool St - Cambridge used to have fast trains, until the late 1980s operated by Class 47s I believe. They called at Audley End, and possibly another station but certainly not all the shacks you get now. The fast service switched to ECML when electrification was completed. Audley End has missed out though.

In the very last years of running they avoided stopping at Bishops Stortford.
Still if you want to go Liv St to Cambridge without intermediate stations it can still be done....But changing at the Airport for XC.. ;)
The Stansted Express and when Provincial/Regional Railways took the paths of the Loco Hauled in the end...
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
In the very last years of running they avoided stopping at Bishops Stortford.
Still if you want to go Liv St to Cambridge without intermediate stations it can still be done....But changing at the Airport for XC.. ;)
The Stansted Express and when Provincial/Regional Railways took the paths of the Loco Hauled in the end...

Well yes I could have done so but wasn't sure if it counted as a reasonable route home despite the major disruption so slummed it on a 317/6 and caught the 170/6 at Cambridge, pity though as I would have liked to have travelled on board the original 317 conversions for the Stansted Express ie the 317/7s and see exactly what a 317 interior is supposed to be like!!!
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Changing at the airport is slower than going direct, even on a slow train.

O L Leigh

Very true, I had a tight timetable to keep to and just about kept to it which considering the disruption is bloody good going, :)

Still, I reckon I should be able to complete the whole NXEA routes hopefully by Dec 2010 :)

Well I had a look on TRUST and counted 660 trains across the UK affected from the disruption at Welwyn North which just goes to show how easy it is for the domino effect in times of disruption.
 
Last edited:

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,915
Location
UK
Problems in a tunnel (if that IS definitely where the problem was) and on a 2-track section was always destined to cause chaos.

Do we know what caused it?
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Problems in a tunnel (if that IS definitely where the problem was) and on a 2-track section was always destined to cause chaos.

Do we know what caused it?

I think it was Welwyn Tunnel (North) which was the precise area affected, a area of 3 spans had the OHL come down.

No idea what exactly caused it to collapse other then put the blame on the cheap workmanship.
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,609
Location
In the cab with the paper
Harsh.

We had a very long section of OLE come down at Waltham Cross earlier this week requiring the catenary wire on the "down" to be replaced. The log reported it as being caused by a pigeon, though personally I doubt this very much.

Just laying the blame on poor workmanship is a touch unfair. If it had been down to that, I imagine it would have come down almost straight away.

O L Leigh
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
17,843
Location
Epsom
Well I had a look on TRUST and counted 660 trains across the UK affected from the disruption at Welwyn North which just goes to show how easy it is for the domino effect in times of disruption.


Ah yes, the domino effect... A different area and a long time ago, but I wonder if any of the older members remember a particularly serious disruption that stemmed from a very minor initial delay in the late 1980s which ended up completely screwing up the entire timetable on what was then the South West Division out of Waterloo one Saturday evening?

At the time there was an awful lot of portion working on the division ( with Farnham / Alton services splitting from Basingstoke / Southampton ones at Woking ) and re-joining different ones on the way back, which made it practically impossible to recover from the initial delays.

The full story will have to wait for another thread, though.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
Care to volunteer one of your own?
Sorry, but no. I can't begin to imagine the causes.
But, thinking very, very hard about OHLE and spacing and caterery and voltage and maintenance regimes and recent weather and unexpected circumstances and normal wear & tear and anything else I can think of with a causal relationship with the OHLE, then I have to say, pigeons just don't come into it.
(And I do have to deal with pigeons from time to time, so its not as if they're a mystery to me. And yes, they can occasionally straddle an insulation).

But my question is, were pigeons the actual CAUSE, or are pigeons the convenient BLAME?
If the CAUSE, then how? (just out of idle curiousity).
If the BLAME, then how are we mis-attributing the causes of failures like that (and again out of curiousity, what was the actual cause)? And are we disregarding anything serious or just a slip up?

But after typing all that - maybe we don't need to know. Maybe we can all just do a moderate days work and sometimes blame the environment when things don't go well, and go home feeling okay. I'm sure I've done it myself. Pesky pigeons!
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,609
Location
In the cab with the paper
*Laughs*

I have no idea if the pigeon was the cause or just got the blame. As I said before, I doubt the explanation myself. Mind you, I suppose it is just about possible, though I will defer to Old Timer on this. Here's why.

The train that had passed through the section just prior to the failure of the OLE was stopped at Bishops Stortford and the driver asked to inspect the pans. The driver and the despatcher (himself a former driver of many years experience) had a look and could find no fault. When the line was re-opened later in the day it was plain to see that the catenary wire had been replaced with a shiny new one.

As it was this wire that had failed and required replacement and not the contact wire, this strongly suggests that a faulty pan was not to blame (for the uninitiated, the catenary wire is the top wire from which the contact wire is suspended). It is just possible that a pigeon might have caused the failure, as there is an overbridge at Waltham Cross station. I've seen a pigeon juiced at Tottenham Hale by walking along the catenary wire under the road bridge and causing a short. I suppose it's possible that the same thing happened at Waltham Cross and the resultant arc was enough to cause the catenary wire to fail resulting in a major OLE fault.

As for Welwyn...

O L Leigh
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Harsh.

We had a very long section of OLE come down at Waltham Cross earlier this week requiring the catenary wire on the "down" to be replaced. The log reported it as being caused by a pigeon, though personally I doubt this very much.

Just laying the blame on poor workmanship is a touch unfair. If it had been down to that, I imagine it would have come down almost straight away.

O L Leigh

You know what I mean, I was referring to the cheap way that the wires went up and how easy it is for them to come down half the time!
If that's too harsh, then I'm sorry but it's the sad truth that it was done as cheaply as possible.

On the plus side, I was told by a former WC driver that each line has seperate supports for the OHL so if one comes down it shouldn't affect the other lines unlike the ECML where all lines are immediately affected.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top