nedchester
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Or require all passengers to wear face coverings as happens in Germany.
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Long term social distancing: Impact on public life & public transport?
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Or require all passengers to wear face coverings as happens in Germany.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I was suspecting that that would be with face coverings, i.e. 2m can be reduced to 1m (or about 750-800mm with a seat back in the way, as is a typical airline seat pitch) if masks are worn, allowing 50% capacity instead of 25%.
nedchester
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I think that would be reasonable in the short/medium term. Not sure what the rules are as regards loadings go in Germany?
That said it's difficult to police especially with commuter trains calling at unmanned stations.
It affects me more than most as a guard on 15x units where I can only work from a public vestibule that on half the fleet contains the only access to the toilet or luggage/bicycle area.
Thus I have a vested interest in a workable solution and not just turning up at a busy unmanned station (we have them as do many others) to find the place potentially swarming and nothing in place to manage that. Also what can be put in place to effectively deal with those who refuse to comply with any measures again short of hanging platform staff or train crews out to dry or get on with it.
Cross Country had a near miss today with 130 odd fruit pickers off a charter flight turning up at Brum International wanting Stafford which would have swamped a Voyager. Luckily the Trainline tipped them off that they'd booked in advance and they had the good sense and competence to rustle up a special running direct from the Airport to Stafford and averted the social distancing farce that would have occurred.
It is quite a tricky task really given how, though it might not seem it, layers of staffing have been ripped out over the decades. Whole swathes of our network are effectively staffed by the guard with only the driver to help with a mobile person to empty the bins and clean up a bit by rotation.
Thus the unions coming to a sensible agreement at RICF (and it isn't just the RMT, ASLEF and TSSA are in the same boat) is crucial to make everything work.
Thus I have a vested interest in a workable solution and not just turning up at a busy unmanned station (we have them as do many others) to find the place potentially swarming and nothing in place to manage that. Also what can be put in place to effectively deal with those who refuse to comply with any measures again short of hanging platform staff or train crews out to dry or get on with it.
Cross Country had a near miss today with 130 odd fruit pickers off a charter flight turning up at Brum International wanting Stafford which would have swamped a Voyager. Luckily the Trainline tipped them off that they'd booked in advance and they had the good sense and competence to rustle up a special running direct from the Airport to Stafford and averted the social distancing farce that would have occurred.
It is quite a tricky task really given how, though it might not seem it, layers of staffing have been ripped out over the decades. Whole swathes of our network are effectively staffed by the guard with only the driver to help with a mobile person to empty the bins and clean up a bit by rotation.
Thus the unions coming to a sensible agreement at RICF (and it isn't just the RMT, ASLEF and TSSA are in the same boat) is crucial to make everything work.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Again, compulsory reservations would help there. I think people have got used to things being different at the moment, and I think they would mostly be OK with "if you want to use the train from an unstaffed station you have to go online or phone to book a seat first, you can't just rock up and pay the guard". Some would ignore it (you could leave a few rows unbooked so you can send them somewhere), but as with unenforced pick up/set down only which mostly works it would probably be enough to rein that in.
Big job to get everything on NRS I suppose...could XC perhaps help by rolling TMR (ten minute reservations) out to all TOCs temporarily?
Big job to get everything on NRS I suppose...could XC perhaps help by rolling TMR (ten minute reservations) out to all TOCs temporarily?
Luke McDonnell
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We have both got Disabled Persons Railcards and Disabled ENCTS passes by friend has also got an "Autism Alert" card if that is what you mean? Because both me and him have the ENCTS passes I cannot see how you could restrict those with the disabled and older persons concessionary passes from travelling I did read a rumour on this forum that the validity of OAP ENCTS passes could be restricted at peak/busy times presumably to discourage non essential travel by OAPs at peak times/on busy services to avoid overcrowding but nothing about the disabled passes not sure how it would work because they automatically activate the barriers and some stations do not have barriers and/or are unstaffed so I can't see how you would change this
chris11256
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apoligies if off topic, post on DistrictDaves forum by a Central Line driver that they'll be back to usual duty rosters from the 17th May, albeit still an 'emergancy service'. He suspects they'll try to run a 'full' service a week or two after that'.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
You said you would be travelling at the weekend; thus this is outside the peak period. And yes, I did mean the "Autism Alert" card from the NAS
JonathanP
Member
Threre are no rules on loadings, to my knowledge, just the mask requirement. It is up to the passengers to maintain the (1.5m) distance from each other. Deutsche Bahn long distance have even offered people who had train specific tickets the the possibility to use them anytime they like in the next few months.
As for the union element, I am bamboozled by the amount of minutiae that requires union approval in the railway industry, from the precise details of each roster, to the procedures for training staff on new equipement, to the methods of asssigning overtime. How do they even have the resources to check all this stuff?! Is there a full time 'shadow' union official for every manager that checks up on every decision they make?
The union ( aslef in my case ) check all the diagrams at each timetable change. This for one is about safety , to make sure you get the minimum break and you are not driving longer than the hidden regulations. Sometimes these slip through from diagramming. Also just some mistakes. I saw a couple of diagrams that had a break, where you were relieved at say 11 am on the platform , but the diagram of the relieving driver had them relieving you at say 11.15 , despite the train supposedly 15 minutes away down the road.
This is completely unworkable and unenforceable. Aside from the myriad situations of missed trains, missed connections etc that I and others have raised, how do you enforce it? It can't be enforced on DOO trains and it's highly likely guards won't be doing any revenue checks either for a while.
I don't think the government is going to mandate face coverings as they seem to be sensible taking the line that it will make little difference (if any). So it's going to be "please continue to work from home if you can, and travel outside of peak times if you can. Only travel if you need to" in order to keep demand suppressed. Withdrawal of unregulated cheap advance tickets will help to suppress demand too. This is why they've been talking to business about the possibilities of staggered working days.
If it all goes wrong and trains are crowded then they will have to rethink, but I'd be amazed if compulsory reservations across the board come in.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
We can't do "only travel if you need to" forever. A way needs to be found to allow discretionary travel without overcrowding. The only option I can see to do this with a relatively open system (so you can't do boarding controls everywhere) is compulsory reservations.
You don't really have to enforce it to any great extent, perhaps barring some random swoops with BTP assistance. The lockdown isn't being particularly heavily enforced (we just don't have enough Police, I've barely seen any myself - saw one today but he was more interested in pulling over a van that had his back door open presumably unintentionally than me going for a walk) and most people are complying to that. People by and large do comply with pick up/set down only restrictions, even though regulars know which trains stop where.
While they are now moving towards gatelines, France, Italy, Spain etc have had compulsory reservation IC services with fully open boarding for years.
You don't really have to enforce it to any great extent, perhaps barring some random swoops with BTP assistance. The lockdown isn't being particularly heavily enforced (we just don't have enough Police, I've barely seen any myself - saw one today but he was more interested in pulling over a van that had his back door open presumably unintentionally than me going for a walk) and most people are complying to that. People by and large do comply with pick up/set down only restrictions, even though regulars know which trains stop where.
While they are now moving towards gatelines, France, Italy, Spain etc have had compulsory reservation IC services with fully open boarding for years.
nedchester
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Seems DB are taking a pragmatic approach.
As for the unions on the railway, yes they have got too much power. Literally everything has to pass union approval through 'company councils' which is so antiquated and something from the 1970s. In many cases it stops the railways moving forward.
As I say it will only take a small bit of their stamping their feet over something minor before the Government go out on a mission to smash the RMT. The RMT may think they are strong but seeing what Thatcher did to the Miners and the Print Workers in the 80s you can see they will get what they especially with a large majority.
Yes but presumably there's a very high likelihood of having your ticket checked, at which point the guard says "Eh, Monsieur...".
Compulsory reservation is not a solution, particularly if it can't/won't be enforced (as you allude to). Even if it were enforced, there are all sorts of good reasons why you might be on a different train to the one booked.
The 2m advice needs changing to 1m pronto, with a very heavy emphasis on the fact that it's face to face contact for about 15 minutes that carries a risk of the other person is infected. Some people seem to behave as though going within the bubble means instant virus transmission.
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There aren’t real restrictions on travel, just discouragement, you can get a bus or train without needing a permit
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Nobody is likely to stop you getting on a bus, as drivers will generally not challenge too much as they're on their own, and in London you now board away from them anyway and it's free. BTP are at some stations turning people away if they can't give a decent reason to travel, though. And the risk, of course, is that you go somewhere and can't get back as a result.
Cancelling bus routes strikes me as a real restriction.
You might not, in law, need a permit to travel on a train but that is of little comfort when BTP prevent you from travelling.
I'd say going home is a genuine reason for travel! If they didn't catch you on the way out that's tough titty. What's the alternative to going home, go sleep on the street and try again tomorrow?
That said, the messages on the TOC websites are a pretty good deterrent. I haven't been on a train (or gone anywhere other than food shopping during lockdown), but if I were going somewhere I don't think I'd take the train (even though from what I can see they are completely empty and definitely not a vector for virus spread at the moment). It's be worried about the sort of make you describe.
Numerous recent posts refer to reducing distancing from 2m.
As I see the risk is as much about the time spent less than 2m from others as the distance particularly if trusting that anyone who is coughing or sneezing in a way that to them is not normal and / or is feeling unwell is self-isolating. I clarify this as now is the time for hay fever and while I seem to have grown out of it compared to from perhaps age 15 to around 40 with going out for a walk every day around my estate where there are two areas of cow parsley plus this week the grass has been cut while still far less severe I am being affected more this year. Go back to when I suffered badly and I could easily foresee getting ' dirty looks ' if not potentially abusive remarks from other passengers.
In the context of trains and stations I consider the risk from being less than even 1m from someone very briefly is low but that the risk increases with time. As a single traveller I would not want to share an airline seat or a group of facing seats. If for some reason forced to sit in an aisle rather than window seat I would want the adjacent seat across the aisle empty too. If I had to stand I would want to be 2m from anyone else unless physically separated by a screen. As I have posted before the other risk is contact with hard surfaces where overall reports suggest the virus lives longest. I would carry wipes and hand sanitiser to minimise the risk as well as trying to touch as few surfaces as possible.
Given few commuters travel with others they live with so could share adjacent seats I would feel at significant risk on a train with more than 50% capacity occupied, rather less if mostly facing bay seats. Once rules on non-essential travel are relaxed so more couples perhaps 60% occupancy before I felt at significant risk.
As I see the risk is as much about the time spent less than 2m from others as the distance particularly if trusting that anyone who is coughing or sneezing in a way that to them is not normal and / or is feeling unwell is self-isolating. I clarify this as now is the time for hay fever and while I seem to have grown out of it compared to from perhaps age 15 to around 40 with going out for a walk every day around my estate where there are two areas of cow parsley plus this week the grass has been cut while still far less severe I am being affected more this year. Go back to when I suffered badly and I could easily foresee getting ' dirty looks ' if not potentially abusive remarks from other passengers.
In the context of trains and stations I consider the risk from being less than even 1m from someone very briefly is low but that the risk increases with time. As a single traveller I would not want to share an airline seat or a group of facing seats. If for some reason forced to sit in an aisle rather than window seat I would want the adjacent seat across the aisle empty too. If I had to stand I would want to be 2m from anyone else unless physically separated by a screen. As I have posted before the other risk is contact with hard surfaces where overall reports suggest the virus lives longest. I would carry wipes and hand sanitiser to minimise the risk as well as trying to touch as few surfaces as possible.
Given few commuters travel with others they live with so could share adjacent seats I would feel at significant risk on a train with more than 50% capacity occupied, rather less if mostly facing bay seats. Once rules on non-essential travel are relaxed so more couples perhaps 60% occupancy before I felt at significant risk.
In the 90s and 00s the railway, despite being an industry with a great deal of minute details that require to be managed to ensure it's successful operation, dispensed with a large amount of it's management experience following privatisation.
With management grades generally being in for little more pay than operational ones with much more mucking about there is little interest in progression in that direction from the shop floor.
Consequently there are a lot of railway managers out there who know nothing of operating a rail service. Not a single one of my current management team has ever done my job, and I'm not interested as someone who does a bit of overtime to afford a few luxuries in taking the paycut to have all the hassle including disciplinaries and on call.
An unintended consequence of all this is that much of your 'railway' expertise in terms of how things will work in practice with changes and new ideas, and particularly fairly technical things like diagrams, is actually gained when you run them by the unions for appraisal and it isn't at all unusual to have managers pop into the union reps or call them to ask 'what do you think about this?' regardless if they'd normally be consulted or not.
Just going by 'computer says yes' gets you things like a local service that is frequently curtailed or cancelled because the driver is scheduled a short cab environment break following working one of the worst performing long distance trains at the company.
The union can kick stuff like that back and say 'have you noticed this is a potential problem?'.
The same applies to building the rosters - the company comes up with the diagrams, they're run by local managers and the union reps to spot errors or make amendments with planning section having the final say and then the reps, who actually know how things go on the ground, build a roster to be approved by the managers.
Until you actually see it function it's hard to appreciate how and why it works and yes, there is occasionally some silliness over basic things, however for the most part it is beneficial for all parties.
Well France went with 1m, so we did twice as well right.....???
The two metre "rule" was rammed down our throats like some placebo pill whilst the government pratted about trying to do things better than the EU instead of working with them. Sadly it has been so indoctrinated into the collective psyche that many people now literally see being closer than 2m to any stranger for even a moment as an imminent risk to their lives, so much so that I've seen on a few occasions people risk getting run over by veering onto main roads rather than pass momentarily on the pavement even when the other person as given as much room as possible.
I've asked before, but I will ask again. If people are made to wear masks, why do we need any distancing?
Fundamentally we are at some point, probably sooner rather than later, going to have to accept the fact that the virus is here to stay. Hiding from it isn't going to work, waiting for a vaccine isn't viable and given that it is already mutating (something that viruses rather annoyingly always do) potentially in vain, and imposing distancing is starting to cause more problem than it solves.
Compulsory reservations will not work, as others have pointed out. Let it go, let it go....
Yes, but in restaurants there's also the time factor.
And that also will apply to many train journeys. It would be helpful if the medical advice from anyone was clearer in this regard, but it should be clear to anyone that passing someone in a street has way less risk than sitting next to them for 2 hours. If masks work, then that will help with train journeys (and air as well I guess). Masks are not feasible in restaurants though.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
FWIW, on my last pre-lockdown journey, I spent about 3 hours sat diagonally opposite someone with a snivelling cold (really obviously that, not COVID) in the "extra legroom table seat" on a LNR 350/1. That puts our faces about 1.5-2m apart. As expected, I did catch said cold. So if they spread similarly then that does still remain a risk if unmasked.
I can pretty much match my colds to encounters with grotty sods coughing everywhere particularly when stood behind me when I'm doing the doors and they're waiting to get off. The temptation to punch them in the nose is hard to resist at times.
nedchester
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A very good point and that seems to be the case in Germany. In indoor environments like shops and trains people are required to wear face coverings and maintain social distancing where possible. That seems to make sense. It doesn't eliminate risk but it reduces it considerably.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm not sure that's proven, but I think it is probably worth trying. Give it say a month. If it makes no difference, be honest, admit it didn't work and abolish it.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Could I respectfully request a new thread for train reservations if people wish to discuss this?
As I've, and others said before, I don't believe it will work in practice on commuter services and on a generally turn-up-and-go railway, such as for those who want to go on a day out to see Granny Doris or the seaside (once restrictions end)
Coming back on-topic, what about the vulnerable or lone women travelling in near empty carriages in the dark evenings? They are going to feel less safe than if their train was loaded as normal. CCTV is not going to stop them getting intimidated/mugged/raped on their journey. Another cohort of people who might now not choose to travel by train as they would fear for their safety
As I've, and others said before, I don't believe it will work in practice on commuter services and on a generally turn-up-and-go railway, such as for those who want to go on a day out to see Granny Doris or the seaside (once restrictions end)
Coming back on-topic, what about the vulnerable or lone women travelling in near empty carriages in the dark evenings? They are going to feel less safe than if their train was loaded as normal. CCTV is not going to stop them getting intimidated/mugged/raped on their journey. Another cohort of people who might now not choose to travel by train as they would fear for their safety
It's interesting that the Belgian railways resumed their normal off peak timetable on May 4th. Most of the rush hour P trains are still cancelled. Their unions must be reasonably happy. Same goes for bus and tram schedules run by De Lijn, normal timetable from May 4th.They have co-operated and assisted the TOCs throughout so I'd be surprised to hear that.
All the Unions will rightly raise concerns about its members welfare(the Teachers union have done so in the last few days, it's not just rail).
The Rail Unions sent a letter to Government....
Safety must be priority to reopen railway | ASLEF
We have joined with our sister unions RMT and TSSA to write to Prime Minister Boris Johnson; Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland; Mark Drakeford, First Minister of Wales, and Sadiqu Khan, Mayor of London, to say this is not the time to lift the lockdown and run more trains.www.aslef.org.uk
As regards the UK, the amended timetables are radically different depending where you live. The route through Harlow has dropped from eight to two trains per hour. Meanwhile the stopper from Liverpool Street to Shenfield has retained a train every 10 minutes throughout the lockdown. They have reportedly been virtually empty.
Realistically, how many people will want to travel off peak once restrictions are eased? I don't think there will be that many at first. I'll be happy to do it when it's allowed. I've spent a large chunk of the last 30 years riding around on, often overcrowded, trains with people coughing and sneezing nearby and almost never caught anything.
Going back to the Shenfield route, if you had one passenger per bay of four or six seats, a pair of 315s could carry 112 passengers every 10 minutes. If they drop the distance to one metre, you could add at least another 55 to that number. I can't see it being a problem. Of course, on sparsely served routes, overcrowding is more likely, so it makes sense to try and run more trains if drivers and guards are available.
MDB1images
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An old article but gives an idea how Italy planned to do it in a couple of cities.
www.arabnews.com
Transport safety tested as Italy prepares to reopen
ROME: From May 4, an estimated 2.7 million Italians are hoping to head back to work as part of the gradual easing of the lockdown. At least 15 percent of them will need to use public transport. On Sunday, the government started testing trains, trams, buses and subways to check how social...
www.arabnews.com
I think one of the things that the modern railway has going for it in this circumstance are the large proportion of airline seats with high seatbacks. I would have thought that these must form a better barrier to someone in front/behind them, rather than being 1m away from someone facing you without anything between.
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