Edinburgh to London tickets changing to via York rather than any permitted

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see why LNER would add these restrictions otherwise?

So they can get a greater cut of revenue?

 

[yorkie]

So they can get a greater cut of revenue?

Maybe, but under ORCATS they'd get nearly all the revenue anyway.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Apart from breaking their journey en route or possibly meeting someone en route why would anyone want to do a journey that would take an hour more unless they were on a stupidly cheap advance?

Either of these (or travelling part way with someone, or just wanting a change of scenery - the LNER route is pretty featureless Stevenage to Doncaster) seem quite likely reasons for wanting to travel up the West Coast. Of course some of the flexibility has already been lost by the removal of return tickets allowing an overnight or longer stop off en route.

 

[paul1609]

Maybe, but under ORCATS they'd get nearly all the revenue anyway.

Are there that many people still travelling on walk up tickets for a journey like Edinburgh to Scotland anyway? Can see a few singles for an urgent trip but not much else. Its the sort of journey that will be planned in advance.

 

[Hadders]

You have just been informed in post #10 that its an LNER led issue?

LNER are leading the trial at pricing single tickets at half the price of a return. I understand this is part of a DfT led initiative to simplify fares.

Avanti and LNER both operate services between Edinburgh and London. The fares are set by LNER and routed Any Permitted so can be used on either Avanti or LNER services.

Avanti don’t like this as they want passengers to pay the more expensive price to travel on their trains.

LNER are fixing the problem by changing the routing on the trial tickets to ‘via York’. This isn’t in itself a problem but in classic railway behaviour they only appear to have done half a job leaving no valid ticket available, there doesn’t appear to be a walk up ticket available to travel on the Avanti service....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe, but under ORCATS they'd get nearly all the revenue anyway.

Which means it's more likely Avanti who should object as they would be carrying people essentially for free.

Bizarre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there that many people still travelling on walk up tickets for a journey like Edinburgh to Scotland anyway? Can see a few singles for an urgent trip but not much else. Its the sort of journey that will be planned in advance.

They provide an important cap on other fares. Without them you could well see Sunday evenings, for instance, costing £300+.

 

[paul1609]

They provide an important cap on other fares. Without them you could well see Sunday evenings, for instance, costing £300+.

is there much of a Sunday Evening demand for trains from Edinburgh to London St Noets?

 

[Hadders]

Trains between Edinburgh and London on Sunday evenings are packed in my experience, regardless of route.

This is another example of the rail industry saying they’re going to simplify things but end up introducing more complication.

 

[Hazlehead]

It's not just Edinburgh also the other two stations in the trial Newcastle & Leeds will become routed via Peterborough. This is as these were also valid via Sheffield historically.
As other posters have said the open fares account for very little of the Edinburgh- London market via the West Coast however an Avanti only fare is being looked into I believe. The price of this is yet to be agreed upon on as Off Peak tickets are one of the Franchise commitments to be implemented in the next couple of years

 

[Taunton]

Are there that many people still travelling on walk up tickets for a journey like Edinburgh to London anyway? Can see a few singles for an urgent trip but not much else. Its the sort of journey that will be planned in advance.

I've more than once bought tickets on the spot at Edinburgh for London when the plane flights home have all been cancelled due to problems at Heathrow. Others were doing the same.

Regarding Euston to Edinburgh Advance tickets, it seems these are significantly sold, even on the through services which route via Birmingham, and on the ones run by 5-car Voyagers, under the wires throughout, which crowds out those doing Birmingham to the North/Scotland etc. It amused me, when I last looked one of these up, that the journey time London to Edinburgh is the same, to the minute, as when I took the Deltic-hauled direct ECML service in the 1970s.

 

[sheff1]

is there much of a Sunday Evening demand for trains from Edinburgh to London St Noets?

As London St Noets does not appear to exist the answer must surely be 'no'. Even if such a place does exist, what does demand to it have to do with the inability buy a walk up ticket for a direct train from Edinburgh to Euston ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW I see a note saying the replacement would be "Avanti only" - as others have said that isn't really acceptable because what if they wanted to use TPE?

To maintain flexibility, it really should be Route Carlisle.

 

[HBP]

Are there that many people still travelling on walk up tickets for a journey like Edinburgh to Scotland anyway? Can see a few singles for an urgent trip but not much else. Its the sort of journey that will be planned in advance.

Hunky dory then. Lots of us travel without planning in advance. I have done so today and without restriction.

 

[sheff1]

LNER are leading the trial at pricing single tickets at half the price of a return. I understand this is part of a DfT led initiative to simplify fares.

Yes and, when the trial was anounced, DfT stated that the aim was to "significantly boost customer confidence and flexibility in booking train tickets".

The withdrawal of walk up tickets for anyone who wishes to make an end to end journey on a through train cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, significantly boost flexibility. The conclusion, therefore, must be that the trial has failed to meet its aim.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The withdrawal of walk up tickets for anyone who wishes to make an end to end journey on a through train cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, significantly boost flexibility. The conclusion, therefore, must be that the trial has failed to meet its aim.

Well, it would if Avanti had the same setup - you'd be able to choose which to buy a ticket for at the point of buying it, and excess one to the other if you preferred, and the higher of the two would be a de-facto Any Permitted anyway.

It is only really an issue because (a) Avanti haven't created fares (yet), and (b) the single fare pricing is only on the ECML - to work properly it needs to be on the whole network.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Yes and, when the trial was anounced, DfT stated that the aim was to "significantly boost customer confidence and flexibility in booking train tickets".

The withdrawal of walk up tickets for anyone who wishes to make an end to end journey on a through train cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, significantly boost flexibility. The conclusion, therefore, must be that the trial has failed to meet its aim.

A bit like when they introduced Anytime Short Returns then? The lie that time was "Its addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel." Not what happened at all. Weasel words from DfT and the customer disadvantaged yet again....

 

[sheff1]

Well, it would if Avanti had the same setup - you'd be able to choose which to buy a ticket for at the point of buying it, and excess one to the other if you preferred, and the higher of the two would be a de-facto Any Permitted anyway.

There would be no need for a new fare, or an excess, if an Edinburgh to London ticket continued to be 'Any Permitted' which it has been for decades without apparent issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There would be no need for a new fare, or an excess, if an Edinburgh to London ticket continued to be 'Any Permitted' which it has been for decades without apparent issue.

A sensible rule to handle this would be that there should be an Any Permitted fare for all flows as a mandatory minimum, and that that must be the regulated fare.

 

[reb0118]

I travelled down yesterday from Haymarket to Euston (stopping off at Milton Keynes for Bletchley, Bedford via the Marston Vale, St Albans City/Abbey, & Watford Jn.*). I left on the 06:57 with a Super Off Peak (issued from Edinburgh as Haymarket is twice the price).

Another point to note is that the time restrictions to & from Euston are much less onerous with a Super Off Peak than Kings Cross.

I like the fact that you can meander up or down at your leisure stopping off at the various towns & cities en route between our respective capitals.

*strictly speaking off route but I also had a pass valid on the respective TOCs concerned.

 

[infobleep]

It's not just Edinburgh also the other two stations in the trial Newcastle & Leeds will become routed via Peterborough. This is as these were also valid via Sheffield historically.
As other posters have said the open fares account for very little of the Edinburgh- London market via the West Coast however an Avanti only fare is being looked into I believe. The price of this is yet to be agreed upon on as Off Peak tickets are one of the Franchise commitments to be implemented in the next couple of years

So what are the chances that they will leave it a couple of years as its not a requirement now?!

 

[infobleep]

FWIW I see a note saying the replacement would be "Avanti only" - as others have said that isn't really acceptable because what if they wanted to use TPE?

To maintain flexibility, it really should be Route Carlisle.

How about an Avanti and connections ticket?

 

[A Challenge]

How about an Avanti and connections ticket?

Can you have 'and connections' for non-advance fares?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Which means it's more likely Avanti who should object as they would be carrying people essentially for free.

Avanti must know that their fares will also soon be following the single-leg pricing model.
Until then it's "interesting" fallout from the trial for the DfT to review!

A properly competitive system would have Avanti reducing its fares to Edinburgh to match LNER's, or better.
But even in the 19th century, such undercutting eventually ended with agreement to charge the same fares...

 

[Hadders]

Avanti only would be unacceptable. It should be routed ‘via Carlisle’.

There is a president for this with London - Exeter tickets where there are ‘via Taunton’ and ‘via Honiton’ tickets.

 

[Mainline421]

Avanti only would be unacceptable. It should be routed ‘via Carlisle’.

There is a president for this with London - Exeter tickets where there are ‘via Taunton’ and ‘via Honiton’ tickets.

Via Carlisle would be needlessly complicated, it should simply be 'Any Permitted Route' as it would have to be valid via the East Coast anyway. The cynic in me thinks that Avanti are going to deliberately drag this out without doing anything, as it's still mostly the same management team that wanted "airline-style ticketing." Incidentally would "via York" even work for someone who wants to travel on The Flying Scotsman which doesn't even call there.

 

[yorkie]

Incidentally would "via York" even work for someone who wants to travel on The Flying Scotsman which doesn't even call there.

Yes as it goes via York

 

[Tetchytyke]

Anyone fancy a FOI request? It'll be interesting to see what they redact.

 

[Hadders]

Via Carlisle would be needlessly complicated, it should simply be 'Any Permitted Route' as it would have to be valid via the East Coast anyway.

I agree that Any Permitted would be better but Avanti Only would not be acceptable.

 

[lyndhurst25]

At the moment you can travel London to Edinburgh "any permitted" without using LNER or Avanti at all! Introducing "Avanti only" tickets would be a very poor substitute.