England Finally Makes Decisions To Reopen Lines

[Sceptre]

I think Skipton–Colne has more of a chance than some people are intimating, not because of whether it would be value for money, but because the politics are in its favour. The new NPR/HS2 minister does have Colne in his patch, and he's been pretty vocal about it in the past. Skipton's MP (regrettably, given how good he was in his ministerial role) is now on the backbenchers, so he can needle the government for SELRAP, which is one of the better-organised transport campaigns.

It also won't hurt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in a neighbouring constituency, so even though all three seats are relatively safe for the Tories, it'll be a cheap and easy win to put it in next month's budget which will go down particularly well with everyone.

 

[Meerkat]

Washington would be better served by a dual voltage Metro.
Pelaw, Follingsby (with Parkway off last motorway junction), Sulgrave (bus shuttle to Nissan), Barmston....
Then off Leamside onto Consett line
Fatfield, Harraton, Barley Mow....
Then north up the ECML slow lines to Central, via Birtley and at least one Team Valley/Low Fell station.

 

[Meerkat]

I think Skipton–Colne has more of a chance than some people are intimating, not because of whether it would be value for money, but because the politics are in its favour

so even though all three seats are relatively safe for the Tories, it'll be a cheap and easy win

You contradict yourself - why waste money on safe Tory seats in a rural corner when they want to shore up the newly Blue wall in the industrial areas? And Skipton Colne won’t be cheap.

 

[swt_passenger]

Out of interest what are the level crossing issues? I live in Ashington and these crossings are used daily by 5/6 trains to Lynemouth power station. Theres been no talk locally about replacements and not sure how you could replace with bridges especially Bedlington South, Marcheys, North Seaton and Green Lane as they are all in fairly built up areas.

Level crossing risk assessment becomes completely different with a more regular passenger service, and they’d probably need to cover any known future passenger frequency improvements from the start. So they might have to improve standards, all the way up from providing lights at minor foot crossings to upgrading any busy main road crossings.

I’d not expect them all to close everything in favour of bridges, but they might (for example) want to divert footpaths slightly to combine routes, that would reduce the overall number of problems to deal with.

There's a precedent with Oxford to Bicester, that changed from an irregular passenger service with a few freights to 2 tph all day, and a significant number of crossings there had to be closed or re-routed.

 

[Meerkat]

Take a look at the Ashington route. A number of LCs on A-roads and/or in tight built up locations (so no chance of bridges) and very close to junctions. A couple are close to stations too.
I hope they have already done thorough LC assessments otherwise I worry they will get almost to god-ahead and suddenly “How much?! But we don’t have that much!”

Oxford-Bicester needing new bridges was probably influenced by pushing the speed up to 100mph?

 

[swt_passenger]

Take a look at the Ashington route. A number of LCs on A-roads and/or in tight built up locations (so no chance of bridges) and very close to junctions. A couple are close to stations too.
I hope they have already done thorough LC assessments otherwise I worry they will get almost to god-ahead and suddenly “How much?! But we don’t have that much!”

Oxford-Bicester needing new bridges was probably influenced by pushing the speed up to 100mph?

There were a few pages about level crossings in their planning stuff I saw a while back, I think max speed will only be 60, but I guess that’s still significantly higher than the present freights. There’s over 20 crossings to deal with, but a fair number will be footpath or user worked crossings. I think they’ll be the bigger risk than supervised road crossings in the built up areas. They don’t seem to be suggesting major signalling upgrades, so I assume the manned crossings will keep their “boxes”...

 

[Sceptre]

You contradict yourself - why waste money on safe Tory seats in a rural corner when they want to shore up the newly Blue wall in the industrial areas? And Skipton Colne won’t be cheap.

I can see Sunak saying something like "we said we would invest in the North and we will, we said we would invest in the towns left behind and we will, so we are bringing forward plans to restore the railway line between Skipton and Colne that was cut over half a century ago".

Or something like that. It's not whether it will actually improve things, it's all about whether it will be seen to do things.

 

[Meerkat]

And then the industrial towns and cities will squeal that they are wasting money on a rural money pit rather than city metro schemes that will have regeneration benefits, and favouring Tory areas

 

[tbtc]

I think Skipton–Colne has more of a chance than some people are intimating, not because of whether it would be value for money, but because the politics are in its favour. The new NPR/HS2 minister does have Colne in his patch, and he's been pretty vocal about it in the past. Skipton's MP (regrettably, given how good he was in his ministerial role) is now on the backbenchers, so he can needle the government for SELRAP, which is one of the better-organised transport campaigns.

It also won't hurt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in a neighbouring constituency, so even though all three seats are relatively safe for the Tories, it'll be a cheap and easy win to put it in next month's budget which will go down particularly well with everyone.

We had all these discussions a decade ago, about how Nick Clegg being Deputy PM was going to mean huge investment in Sheffield - instead we still have no electrification and can't even re-double a short section of line at Dore - so I wouldn't get carried away with the idea of the current MPs having a huge influence over things.

There's also the small matter that SELRAP wouldn't solve anything without spending *huge* sums on other routes too (e.g. there are no spare paths down the Aire Valley so you're not going to be able to divert much freight through Shipley... current EMUs from Skipton to Leeds are so busy that they are being extended in length so there's not going to be many spare seats on existing services... you're not going to be running through passenger trains from Colne to Leeds unless you electrify through into Lancashire - presumably all the way to the WCML at Preston?... )

...and ignores the fact that there's already an hourly service from Blackburn/Burnley to Bradford/ Leeds - if the market were so huge then it'd be simple enough to extend the Hull - Halifax service over the Pennines - if the need for Colne to have direct trains to a big city is so important then you could save hundreds of millions of pounds by extending the Victoria - Bolton - Blackburn service through Burnley to Colne - no infrastructure spending required!

It's a Solution In Need Of A Problem through - people don't want it *because* it'll solve some huge problem - they just want it (and will work backwards to find any old excuse to try to justify it)

 

[Glenn1969]

Diesels do run to Skipton on their way to Morecambe and Carlisle. Maybe after the capacity work at Leeds has finished there might be room for a Colne train too

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest what are the level crossing issues? I live in Ashington and these crossings are used daily by 5/6 trains to Lynemouth power station. Theres been no talk locally about replacements and not sure how you could replace with bridges especially Bedlington South, Marcheys, North Seaton and Green Lane as they are all in fairly built up areas.

In short, a lot more trains, going faster, with people on them = higher risk. And the risk must be reduced as far as is reasonably practical.

There’s a secondary issue that crossings that might be closed to road traffic 5/6 times a day may now be closed at least twice an hour, probably more. This could be quite an issue locally.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think Skipton–Colne has more of a chance than some people are intimating, not because of whether it would be value for money, but because the politics are in its favour. The new NPR/HS2 minister does have Colne in his patch, and he's been pretty vocal about it in the past.

Look what happened to Uckfield-Lewes when the Lewes MP (and Ardent reopening fan) became Transport minister.

I really don’t know why it is said ‘politics are in favour’ of Skipton-Colne, because they are not!

 

[Starmill]

Newcastle to Ashington was doing well and well advanced a long time before General Election chat popped up - it has been ceased on, yes, including by the Secretary of State himself - but it is not just politics.

Colne to Skipton is a made-up fantasy that nobody is looking at.

I note nobody has mentioned Shirebrook to Ollerton? Despite it being included in RNEP and the next stage in East Midlands Railway's contract?

 

[yorksrob]

I think not. That will play with voters as the repairs we should have been doing being touted as development. Boris needs reopenings in the North or new railways. Transpennine won't pay off in the time available (third term anyone?).

That's a very good point. Reopenings will have more cachet (assuming they actually go ahead) as they represent a genuine step change to the service. Replacing life expired trains and electrification come under 'what should be happenning anyway'.

Look what happened to Uckfield-Lewes when the Lewes MP (and Ardent reopening fan) became Transport minister.

I really don’t know why it is said ‘politics are in favour’ of Skipton-Colne, because they are not!

Yes, he got shunted into a siding by George Osbornes road building posse, which is what many on here would like.

The government have already committed 5 billion to buses and bycicles. They need to commit another five billion to reconnecting communities to the rail network.

 

[Bald Rick]

I note nobody has mentioned Shirebrook to Ollerton? Despite it being included in RNEP and the next stage in East Midlands Railway's contract?

A perfect example of a potential scheme that has a much, much better case than some of the ‘old favourites’, but is under the radar because there isn’t a pressure group shouting off about it.

Ollerton has everything going for it - Line extant (but needs upgrading) so lower costs, could be delivered relatively quickly, service could be provided without causing capacity issues elsewhere on the network, connects decently sized towns to the network, huge regeneration potential, possible big traffic generator (Center Parcs). It could also be sold as a scheme in the East Midlands and north at the same time!

If only there was a group of retired gentlemen and enthusiasts with nothing better to do but to campaign for it and produce glossy pamphlets.

 

[Meerkat]

What am I missing....
Ollerton is a tiny place served by a branch that goes a long way round and is there a service you can extend to it?

 

[edwin_m]

Would reopening the Leamside line also allow Northern to run Newcastle - Middlesbrough via Ferryhill and Stillington?

Probably would, but the big problem is that it would miss Durham, with the best achievable being a station on the wrong side of the A1 on the very edge of the city. There's a park and ride nearby so perhaps the buses could provide a rail connection too, but nowhere near as good as using the existing station.

What am I missing....
Ollerton is a tiny place served by a branch that goes a long way round and is there a service you can extend to it?

The route is rather indirect but the road into Nottingham has several miles of 30mph drag through the suburbs so isn't too quick either. Typing "population of Ollerton" into a search engine quotes a few hundred but substituting New Ollerton brings up 6,500. The route takes in Edwinstowe and Market Warsop, which aren't on a main road to Nottingham but are close enough to the line to be walkable assuming a station site is feasible. All these places together bring the catchment over 20,000. And there's an hourly Robin Hood train terminating at Mansfield Woodhouse that could be extended to Ollerton without creating capacity issues.

I haven't seen any BCR figures for this scheme but I'd say it has the potential to have a good case.

 

[Starmill]

What am I missing....
Ollerton is a tiny place served by a branch that goes a long way round and is there a service you can extend to it?

Yes, the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse services. Extending them would also result in 2tph for Shirebrook.

 

[Meerkat]

10k people is tiny in railway terms (particularly for a terminus) and is an hourly train worth the investment?
I would be looking at speeding up the bus services to Mansfield station first.

 

[Wharfe106]

re Leamside, this Written Answer from yesterday's Hansard

Baroness Vere of Norbiton: As part of its Continuous Modular Strategic Planning work on long term strategy for the rail network, Network Rail is assessing what is required to make sure that the rail network between York and Newcastle meets the needs of passengers and freight users in the coming decades. This study is considering the potential role of reinstatement of the Leamside line in meeting those needs, including for local connectivity through extension of the Tyne and Wear local conventional rail or Metro network. It will make recommendations for further option development

 

[Meerkat]

Continuous Modular Strategic Planning

I bet that is consultant slide deck bingo-tastic!

 

[androdas]

There were a few pages about level crossings in their planning stuff I saw a while back, I think max speed will only be 60, but I guess that’s still significantly higher than the present freights. There’s over 20 crossings to deal with, but a fair number will be footpath or user worked crossings. I think they’ll be the bigger risk than supervised road crossings in the built up areas. They don’t seem to be suggesting major signalling upgrades, so I assume the manned crossings will keep their “boxes”...

I think one of the early options put out by Nortumberland CC had resignalling / LC upgrades included but I think they had the old "How Much!" Reaction

 

[158756]

Look what happened to Uckfield-Lewes when the Lewes MP (and Ardent reopening fan) became Transport minister.

I really don’t know why it is said ‘politics are in favour’ of Skipton-Colne, because they are not!

Well, politicians claim to be in favour of it because it's in a marginal seat (despite the majority in the most recent election, it's still a place Labour need to win), so both main parties have promised to reopen it. As we all know though, never trust a politician.

Ollerton I don't think has a great case. The line is still there, but stations and other upgrades cost ridiculous amounts now, so it still can't be considered cheap. The journey time to Nottingham would probably be about an hour, barely quicker than the 70 minute bus journey and slower than driving, and the bus in question only runs once an hour with a very sparse evening and Sunday service.

 

[Starmill]

I find it utterly bizarre how total nonsense like Skipton to Colne gets all of the nice stuff on this forum, but then you come along and offer a genuinely promising scheme which is already included in the pipeline published by Network Rail and which the incumbent operator has a contractual commitment to do the next piece of work on, and everyone suddenly thinks it has a poor economic case???

 

[158756]

I find it utterly bizarre how total nonsense like Skipton to Colne gets all of the nice stuff on this forum, but then you come along and offer a genuinely promising scheme which is already included in the pipeline published by Network Rail and which the incumbent operator has a contractual commitment to do the next piece of work on, and everyone suddenly thinks it has a poor economic case???

The business case for Skipton- Colne is hopeless. Ollerton would probably have a decent case if it was simply a case of needing a 153 and someone to drive it - if you could use the existing track, signalling etc, build a wooden platform with little in the way of other facilities. What the planned work will no doubt find is that the line needs essentially completely rebuilding, and the cost will end up at £150m or something similarly ridiculous. There is nothing cheap or simple on the railway. For the reasons already discussed the potential demand probably won't justify that level of spending.

 

[tbtc]

The government have already committed 5 billion to buses and bycicles. They need to commit another five billion to reconnecting communities to the rail network.

I love the way that this Forum veers from outrage at Guards getting new shirts every seven years when a franchise changes hands to being perfectly relaxed about spaffing billions of pounds at schemes with terrible cases (because re-opening failed lines is seen as a desirable end in itself).

We have heavy rail to tackle the biggest flows - we have buses and other public transport to tackle the smaller ones - buses are going to be much more suited to the kind of rural places much discussed on here.

If only there was a group of retired gentlemen and enthusiasts with nothing better to do but to campaign for it and produce glossy pamphlets.

Wonderful

I find it utterly bizarre how total nonsense like Skipton to Colne gets all of the nice stuff on this forum, but then you come along and offer a genuinely promising scheme which is already included in the pipeline published by Network Rail and which the incumbent operator has a contractual commitment to do the next piece of work on, and everyone suddenly thinks it has a poor economic case???

Agreed - I'll admit that I wasn't even aware of how advanced the Ollerton project had got - but small sensible schemes like this get lost in a wave of nostalgia for quaint routes through rural Devon/ North Yorkshire/ South Downs etc.

I'm glad that the people making decisions are prioritising reasonable schemes like Ollerton though

The business case for Skipton- Colne is hopeless. Ollerton would probably have a decent case if it was simply a case of needing a 153 and someone to drive it - if you could use the existing track, signalling etc, build a wooden platform with little in the way of other facilities. What the planned work will no doubt find is that the line needs essentially completely rebuilding, and the cost will end up at £150m or something similarly ridiculous. There is nothing cheap or simple on the railway. For the reasons already discussed the potential demand probably won't justify that level of spending.

The same could be said of every scheme though - people are happy to listen to SELRAP propaganda suggesting an amazingly positive business case because it's what they want to hear - just like people get very pragmatic about rising costs/trees (and dismissing time savings) when it comes to HS2 but are happy to turn a blind eye when it comes to some quaint branchline.

Ollerton seems to becoming under scrutiny because it seems to have a good case - whereas there's no scrutiny of the kind of Okehampton-Tavistock fairytale stuff, which allows the people suggesting such rural backwaters a free pass.

If Ollerton can't pass the threshold then we should just forget about any re-openings.

 

[sprunt]

The government have already committed 5 billion to buses and bycicles. They need to commit another five billion to reconnecting communities to the rail network.

In many cases, buses and bicycles will be the best way to reconnect communities to the rail network. I'd suggest that's what the five billion should be looking at, but that would imply integrated transport thinking, and whatever this government does you can be sure it won't be that.

 

[158756]

We have heavy rail to tackle the biggest flows - we have buses and other public transport to tackle the smaller ones - buses are going to be much more suited to the kind of rural places much discussed on here.

Ollerton seems to becoming under scrutiny because it seems to have a good case - whereas there's no scrutiny of the kind of Okehampton-Tavistock fairytale stuff, which allows the people suggesting such rural backwaters a free pass.

If Ollerton can't pass the threshold then we should just forget about any re-openings.

If costs can't be controlled perhaps we should forget about any reopenings. But there might be (Blyth and Ashington is the obvious example) better cases than Ollerton - Ollerton is a good example of a rural backwater (smaller than Tavistock in fact) which supports only a very limited bus service. That's not to say it shouldn't have a train service, but there are limits to how much can be spent on it.

Whilst we still talk about reopenings on here, the government have long since forgotten anyway - how long ago now were Birmingham Snow Hill, Mansfield, Clitheroe? That low hanging fruit has already been done.

 

[geoffk]

There's also Northwich - Middlewich - Sandbach, but this isn't in a constituency recently won from Labour. And you would need the second train per hour from Manchester, which is hampered by lack of paths and sections of single track.

 

[HSTEd]

Most reopenings are entirely pointless.

If the lines had not been closed in the first place most of them would justify being kept open.
However they are gone.

We should throw out the circa-1960 railway maps and concentrate on where we go from here

I often get stick for crayonista behaviours, or at the very least an unhealthy obsession with tunnels and mass concrete, but we have to look at where we are now.
I could think up numerous schemes that might not be particularly economic but no doubt score better than the kind of things we see proposed for reopenings of old railways that were abandoned largely for being railways to nowhere.

(Mad schemes like a Meols to Prestatyn Tunnel or the Irish Sea crossing stuff)