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New transport secretary

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455driver

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I agree again with Railsigns.

That says a lot then! :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Greenback, you wont get a response for a couple of reasons-
1/ OT posts facts while the trolls are unable to back up their points with anything other than insults.
2/ there are too many big words in that passage for them to understand, and as pointed out, mummy has gone to the shops and cant help out! :lol:
 
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thegrich37423

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Maybe 455driver, but I can assure you, myself and this Railsigns chap are not the same person. We hold the same views though, which says a lot about this thread.

I'm going to bow out now before this gets too heated and off topic. It's clear that people are jumping to defend their own political corner and we are meant to be talking about some obscure chap from the 49th Flat in Goodygumpdrops Street.
 

455driver

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Before you go, have you got a link to that "concrete proof" you were talking about on the Great Western electrification thread!
 

Lampshade

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I'm going to bow out now before this gets too heated and off topic. It's clear that people are jumping to defend their own political corner and we are meant to be talking about some obscure chap from the 49th Flat in Goodygumpdrops Street.

No no noooo, you'll stay and finish what you started :p
 

Greenback

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No, let him beat a dignified retreat! What with bashing the BNP on another thread and basjing the left on this one, I'm getting quite confused about where I stand and what I believe...:)
 

Bill EWS

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T.O. You are most arrogant individual who can't think out of your own political box. I was on the railway from the early 60's up to 2005 and saw it all. You certainly twist everything to put the blame on anyone but your own political outlook.

We had managent like you who claimed they knew better than BR and claimed it should be privatised so that you and your kind could get their hands on it and look what's happend now that you have. if you don't come down from your high perch and stop looking down on everyone you don't agree with, your own arrogance will soon trip you up. Thank goodness there are a number on here who have the guts to stand up to you.

I find you insuffearble and you spoil every debate with your own political diatribe and nose-in-the air attidute to everyone. I should get rid of that terrible avatar as it speaks volumes about your own self importance.
 
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yorksrob

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we need to look to the future and openly work with the European countries like Germany.

Er would this be the same Germany that has consistently fought tooth and nail against having it's railways carved up and flogged off ;)
 

BlythPower

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I'm with Bill and Railsigns. OT's constant, rabid and dogmatic hatred of anything he perceives as 'left-wing' does him no favours. It discredits his well informed posts on purely rail matters (i.e. those few posts in which he doesn't find an opportunity for left-bashing...).
 

Old Timer

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T.O. You are most arrogant individual who can't think out of your own political box. I was on the railway from the early 60's up to 2005 and saw it all. You certainly twist everything to put the blame on anyone but your own political outlook.

We had managent like you who claimed they knew better than BR and claimed it should be privatised so that you and your kind could get their hands on it and look what's happend now that you have. if you don't come down from your high perch and stop looking down on everyone you don't agree with, your own arrogance will soon trip you up. Thank goodness there are a number on here who have the guts to stand up to you.

I find you insuffearble and you spoil every debate with your own political diatribe and nose-in-the air attidute to everyone. I should get rid of that terrible avatar as it speaks volumes about your own self importance.


Dear Bill
The last time you sniped at me I ignored it, bearing in mind the few posts you had made at that time, although the background reasons to that sniping are known to me and several other Railwaymen on here.

You make no pretence of liking me, and that is entirely a matter for you. I shall however respond politely to a number of accusations you have made which are as ill-informed as the posts and posters with whom you seek to align yourself.

It appears to be the case that you believe the old adage that the Conservatives destroy Railways and that the Labour Party is the saviour of them.

Taking the length of your service and the fact that you ended up as a traction inspector, I am disappointed that you fail to see the accuracy of the facts that I posted in post 76. These facts are checkable with the railway trade unions, or by diligent research.

Whilst they do not fit into that nice world that people have constructed where everything Conservative is bad, that is not my fault. I have simply pointed out the facts in response to a post that was almost hysterical and massively inaccurate.

Other posters on here have made the same points about this as I have. If the individuals who persist in posting what is little more than disingenuity, and inaccurate spin were to do just a little research they would see the arrant nonesense of it all.

I guess you would rather live with what is untrue.

Even the least intellectual of people will realise that there is only so far you can push a dogma that refuses to acknowledge reality.

Please demonstrate what I have written where I have twisted something ?


A few further comments.
...We had managent like you who claimed they knew better than BR and claimed it should be privatised so that you and your kind could get their hands on it and look what's happend now that you have..
Yes, this is demonstrative of the old “them and us” attitude that did much to damage BR ultimately. It suggests to me someone who was opposed to any form of change, however well intentioned. It is the attitude of smoke filled LDC rooms where dogma ruled and reality was not welcome.

There are two course in life. One is to sit back and castigate, criticise, and obstruct, the other is to go forward and try to make change.

Let me tell you a few things. Firstly, I come from several generations of Railwaymen, and am proud of that fact. Do you ?

I was also proud to wear the BR uniform. Why were so many of your footplate colleagues unwilling to do that preferring instead to come to work like fallouts from an orphanage in some cases. ? Incidentally many being the self-same smoke filled room inhabitants

I make no secret of being management and never have done. I didn’t get there by preferment or by working the Union ticket. I got there by stint of bloody hard work. I started on the ground and I literally fought my way up in competition with such people.

And it was an eye opening climb I can tell you.

Dealing with people who were purely interested in self and what they could make from the job. Dealing with those who could see no further than beyond their nose, who obstructed every form of change.

Those were people whose attitudes were ultimately to wreak havoc on us.

The Drivers who would deliberately run slow in order to go outside their diagrammed hours and then demand 12 or 16 hours to complete the job.

The Signalman who was useless at his job and couldn’t regulate a bath let alone a signalbox but had to be automatically promoted on the basis of length of service. I had Signalmen who were absolutely useless at running trains and were basically both unpleasant and obnoxious to both train crews and trackside staff. Some of these people were in key locations.

Historical terms and conditions which made this happen and allowed them to continue, were defended tooth and nail.

The P.Way staff who would take all day to do a small job, and who would ensure that “something” went wrong or “failed” just so they could just book on and then go home at the start of the shift.

The booking clerk who was rude to passengers, one indeed who used to hide when they came or who would put down the shutter when he thought he could get away with it.

The Paytrain Guard who wouldn’t check and issue tickets.

All these people were no benefit to the Railway whatsoever yet they all had one thing in common, a nasty, petty and vindictive attitude to anyone who was in “management”, and indeed were harder on those who rose through the ranks.

In many cases these poisonous individuals dissuaded many a good Railwayman from seeking promotion to the greater loss of the Railway.

I know you will recognise these people. I know you will have worked with them. So please do not lecture me about management. I went out to make things better where I could.

In the run up to Privatisation (which I opposed and still believe was carried out wrongly incidentally - not that this little fact matters to you) I was working hard along with many other committed Railwaymen to protect what we could of our Industry. Most of the matters I was fortunate enough to have been able to assist in putting in place remain and prevent the destruction of MY Industry by those who saw it as an easy way to make money.

Try taking a long hard look at those who made £ms out of Privatisation, and then look at their affiliations and friends. Try also taking a look at their banking arrangements. Mostly offshore. A loophole that we were promised would be closed but one that was left open after 1997. Many profitted from the Privatisation of the Railway. You will find it informative to see who they were.

Where were you ? What were YOU doing that was constructive ?

Were you one of those people who did all they could to deride and obstruct what we were fighting to protect through either short-sightednes or unwielding dogma ?

Anyone can hold what genuine opinion they want as far as I am concerned. What I object to, and post against, are people who jump in here and post what is inaccurate and untrue statements.

There is an old adage that states if you repeat something often enough it becomes accepted fact.

If that causes you so much distress and upset then that is a matter for you, and I suggest your conscience.

Finally

My Railway credentials and background are know to many, and mostly better Railwaymen than me on here. I respect and value THEIR opinions and when THEY call me to account then I shall listen. Their observations and views will have been formed through a proper knowledge of me and my history and background, and not from second hand tittle tattle and venom pushed from elsewhere.
 
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Railsigns

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T.O. You are most arrogant individual who can't think out of your own political box. I was on the railway from the early 60's up to 2005 and saw it all. You certainly twist everything to put the blame on anyone but your own political outlook.

We had managent like you who claimed they knew better than BR and claimed it should be privatised so that you and your kind could get their hands on it and look what's happend now that you have. if you don't come down from your high perch and stop looking down on everyone you don't agree with, your own arrogance will soon trip you up. Thank goodness there are a number on here who have the guts to stand up to you.

I find you insuffearble and you spoil every debate with your own political diatribe and nose-in-the air attidute to everyone. I should get rid of that terrible avatar as it speaks volumes about your own self importance.
Nice one, Bill. That needed saying.

BlythPower - LOVE your avatar! :lol:
 

Aictos

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Well said OT, in some places change is opposed even if it means making the job better as some are stuck in their old ways, I've heard one comment that I don't do customer care if a customer asks for a journey plan or such like as it's ain't in my job description even though day to day it is.

It's people like this who give a negative view that the railway is run just for the railway staff and customers are a hinderance, with few support for any proposed strikes as a result.

As far as I am aware, change isn't always bad and if done properly is actually a good thing.

So thank you OT for the enlighting post and before certain people start on me, I don't have my nose up certain asses but value the strong friendships made with colleagues and non colleagues across the UK.
 

Metroland

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Well said OT, in some places change is opposed even if it means making the job better as some are stuck in their old ways, I've heard one comment that I don't do customer care if a customer asks for a journey plan or such like as it's ain't in my job description even though day to day it is.

It's people like this who give a negative view that the railway is run just for the railway staff and customers are a hinderance, with few support for any proposed strikes as a result.

As far as I am aware, change isn't always bad and if done properly is actually a good thing.

So thank you OT for the enlighting post and before certain people start on me, I don't have my nose up certain asses but value the strong friendships made with colleagues and non colleagues across the UK.


It's been demonstrated on this forum numerous times, there are those that think the railway is run for them, and I have to say OT post rings a fair amount of truths to my mind. The 'them and us' inside the railway is appalling, and the hate campaigns started against anyone that chooses to edge away from the perceived dogma, and embrace change and modern open business, is nasty, vindictive, and nauseating.

The extreme left wing, are every bit as nasty and small minded as the extreme right wing.
 

Bill EWS

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O.T. (Apologies for the typo), I don't know you to dislike you as a person. My comments are purely based upon your arrogant stance and looking down on anyone who disagrees with you. You don't seem able to communicate without pushing your own politcal leaning.

Note, that I have not stated my own political leaning when exchanging views on here, although it may well be obvious and certainly not of your own politcal persuasion. However, I have said on here that I would never tell someone else how to voter and that they must make up their own minds, not be persuaded by someone like yourself, who can't move outside your own political box.

I have no idea what you know i.e railwaywise but I have agreed with you on a number of ocassions and you are usually very clear in your content. My grumble is purely about your annoying insistance of pushing your political views on everyone in the Forum and the image you give of yourelf of looking down on everyone. If that isn't the case, then as I mentioned previoudly, perhaps you need to change your avatar!

By the way, I was never a Traction Inspector. Are you mixing me up with someone else?

I started as Cleaner then became a passed cleaner and was upgraded to fireman when I volutarily moved from Scotland under the "All Region" Vaccancy list and the only depot available was in the south of England. Before that you could only move within your reion. As a young lad and newly married that was quite a move to make. I could have stayed in Scotland and on the dole as there was very little work back then but decided to take a chance and start-a-new elsewhere. The railways in my area were virtually wiped off the map during the Beeching cuts.

What utter arrogance and insult to suggest that I got my job by "Working the Union ticket" In 1974 I voluntarily moved under the correct procedures and got into a depot 60 miles from my home base to get my driving job. I had a motorbike back thenm and always managed to get to work whatever the weather. I travelled every working day and night for six years, often six and seven days a week, making pretty long days before I got back to my then, home depot.

A year after that I became redundant once again and volutarily moved to another depot, which gave me another two years of travelling every day and night. Thankfully once I got back to my home depot again I was there until retirement.

I always wore my uniform, pressed my own trousers and polished my boots. I always drove my trains smartly through sections and never hung around, except when due to signalling and other problems. I never liked working overtime and only worked compulsory overtime. Likewise, I only worked my booked Sundays and no others unless it was as a favour to the TCI, which I did many times over the years. So why are you lumping me in with those that you mentioned in your comments? I know of them but certainly don't associate myself with that mindset. I felt just as much disgust with them as you show in your comments.

Now! Tell me what my having, or not having had others in my family on the railways got to do with anything? However, saying that, my daughter has been an accountant with the railway since BR days. So, again, explain why that would make any difference as to how I did my job for 42 years? All you appear to be doing is proving me right about you.

Now just cool down and try accepting that my main beef with you is your constantly pushing your political leaning on everyone here and appearing to look down on everyone. As I said previously, if we are getting the wrong message I would suggest that you ease off the political broadcasts on behalf of your preferred party and change your avatar.
 

Old Timer

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Dear Bill,

Thank you for your response.

By the way, I was never a Traction Inspector. Are you mixing me up with someone else?.
I suspect I must be. Apologies in that case.


My comments are purely based upon your arrogant stance and looking down on anyone who disagrees with you. You don't seem able to communicate without pushing your own politcal leaning.

Note, that I have not stated my own political leaning when exchanging views on here, although it may well be obvious and certainly not of your own politcal persuasion. However, I have said on here that I would never tell someone else how to voter and that they must make up their own minds, not be persuaded by someone like yourself, who can't move outside your own political box..........My grumble is purely about your annoying insistance of pushing your political views on everyone in the Forum and the image you give of yourelf of looking down on everyone. If that isn't the case, then as I mentioned previoudly, perhaps you need to change your avatar!

Now just cool down and try accepting that my main beef with you is your constantly pushing your political leaning on everyone here and appearing to look down on everyone. As I said previously, if we are getting the wrong message I would suggest that you ease off the political broadcasts on behalf of your preferred party and change your avatar.
Thank you.

I am sorry that my words are being taken in the manner you have explained.

This was/is not my intention.

In posting I seek only to try to stop the varying myths that have been perpetuated over the years, especially those which are untrue. We do seem to suffer from people who will come on here to give vent to their anti-Conservative invective through the medium of the Railways. Were there to have been some truth in that then that could be justified. Where there is blatantly no evidence to back up their assertions then this is where I take exception.

I believe genuinely that this Forum has the ability to become a location where people can come to learn and obtain factual information and learning. That is why I joined....to give back to the community some of the knowledge and experience I have gained over the years.

For this Forum to become respect in that manner however, it is necessary that obvious untruths be challenged or they ultimately become "established history" when repeated often enough. This is a tactic that has been used in propoganda for many years and certain sections of the Political world are very adept at its use. A further method is the use of halkf-truths and the distortion of facts just enough to "infer" something different.

It is this hijacking of Our (your and my) Industry's history that I object to. Inevitably this will lead me into conflict with those who believe that they are beyond reproach and I am lackey. Dogma and facts do not make good bedfellows.

If my posts come across in a barracking or arrogant manner then then is not what is being intended. That could well be down to way I use words, and phrases. It could also be due to the nature of my job where I have to be direct and clear. Notwithstanding, I thank you for the explanation, and I will endeavour to look at how I phrase and write in the future. Your other points are noted and I will consider how to address them.

In an earlier post I wrote that I was sorry that Railways have become a Politicised subject. Unfortunately whilst ever they receive a single penny from the Treasury then that will be the case. I cannot promise not to defend when I believe or know something to be true.

One of the ironies of the various attacks on me is that those people do not know me and make grand but inaccurate assumptions about me. They have no inkling for example of my respect and liking for such people as the late Gwyneth Dunwoody, with whom I have had the pleasure to meet with, and talk to about a number of issues. I found her an honourable and genuine Politician and one for whom I had enormous respect. I was privileged to meet her, many were not. I can honestly say however that had she been my MP I would have voted for her.

Her untimely death was a great blow personally as well as for the Railway in general. I believe that it also saw the passing of one of the few remainders of what I would call the true Labour Party, rather than the concoction of public school educated and privileged youths who use it as a means to personal agrandishment rather than as the means by which those less well off are represented.

There are other members of Labour for whom I have admiration and respect, such as Frank Field, although in some ways my beliefs differ.

The phrase "Tory" has been bandied around by those who see it as a means of abuse. Unfortunately my beliefs do not fall into any one particular basket at all. On some occasions I am to be found helping those who are being disciplined by management, the last couple of weeks I have been trying very hard to assist a number of former Jarvis people find alternative employment following the disgraceful and vindictive manner in which that Company was treated.


.....What utter arrogance and insult to suggest that I got my job by "Working the Union ticket" In 1974 I voluntarily moved under the correct procedures and got into a depot 60 miles from my home base to get my driving job. .
Bill, I am truly deeply shocked that you took my words in that way. They were certainly NEVER meant in that fashion. That would have been a form of personal insult which I would not wish to step towards. My comments were aimed at the people who used their Trade Union activities (LDC/Branch) etc to climb the slippery ladder. It was not meant in any other way.


.....I always wore my uniform, pressed my own trousers and polished my boots. I always drove my trains smartly through sections and never hung around, except when due to signalling and other problems. I never liked working overtime and only worked compulsory overtime. Likewise, I only worked my booked Sundays and no others unless it was as a favour to the TCI, which I did many times over the years. So why are you lumping me in with those that you mentioned in your comments? I know of them but certainly don't associate myself with that mindset. I felt just as much disgust with them as you show in your comments..
I would not lump you in with those people in any way. I meant no slight upon you and I wish to make that clear. My own (maybe limited experience) has shown me that you can generally base an opinion on a man's attitude and approach in how he dresses and his own deprtment. A Signalman who was sloppy in dress and housekeeping was without exception sloppy and poor in their duties.


As I said earlier I appreciate your latest post, my assumption as to your id was based upon my belief that you were someone else. The manner of your posting tended towards suggesting that was the case. For any offense or upset, I unreservedly apologise.
 

Bill EWS

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Apologies accepted O.T. However my complaint still stands, for now.

As regard 'Myths' I assure you just as many exists about the Unions, Labour etc, so you are not alone on that score. You appear to be taking that way too seriously on you own behalf. I hope that you would be as quick to defend others suffering from the same myths! I expect the reason many still hate the Conservatives is that for eons they were indeed known as the "Nasty Party" and it was well earned.

I'm not sure it is your job to educate anyone on here and especially too with your strong political leaning. I can't see how you could be really unbiased. State facts where you believe they are needed but suggesting you 'educate' such as myself or others on this Forum, at any length really isn't on, in my opinion. I can appreciate where you make facts known and write intersting comment but I am not sure I would open a page where an individual has set themselves up to 'educate' me!

From what you are telling us in regard to helping staff in difficuties I would say confirms my thinking that you need to change your image, and most definitely your avatar. It screems creepiness and deliberately hiding behind something you don't want others to know! I appreciate that you are giving this some considerstion.

To change the subject here is a link to the Railscot News Page, which is always a good read. It contains numerous up-to-date railway news stories from around the UK. Perhaps others may find this of interest. I always enjoy browsing the pages.

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/news.php

Slainte.

BillEWS.
 

Old Timer

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.....I'm not sure it is your job to educate anyone on here and especially too with your strong political leaning. I can't see how you could be really unbiased. State facts where you believe they are needed but suggesting you 'educate' such as myself or others on this Forum, at any length really isn't on, in my opinion. I can appreciate where you make facts known and write intersting comment but I am not sure I would open a page where an individual has set themselves up to 'educate' me!...
Bill it is educate in relation to Railway matters, life as it used to be, etc. Nothing more sinister, and certainly nothing to do with Politics :)

Myself and some of the Infrastructure lads are trying to develop the Infrastructure section so we can encourage people to come and ask anything at all about Infrastructure Engineering and they will get a professional and correct answer. That was the reference to education.

OT
 

WatcherZero

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/Sigh

I looked up all the new Transport ministers, the furthest one from Westminster is 43 miles, most are as little as 10 miles. I guess we can look forward to an even more London centric investment policy.
 

Mojo

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Norman Baker (Libdem) has been given the final position in the DfT.
 

Saltleyman

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In response to the discord between BillEWS and Old Timer,may i say that we are all of the same era,ie;- brought up in the BR days ,and reading between the lines all three of us agree that the "privatisation" was the wrong thing to do ?.
However it happened,so did the closure of numerous coalmines which was probably a worse thing to have happened,both perpetrated by a "tory" government,and I can see why "BillEWS" is upset and I can concur with him.
However to castigate Old Timer to the extent that "BillEWS" does is I think taking things too far ?Surely we are all entitled to our "political "differences and should be allowed to express them ?
I personally have "crossed" swords with Old Timer, on more than one occasion,
about "political" disagreements without animosity,after all we are both able to dis-agree with each other ?
I personally worked as a Fireman/Driver at Saltley in the good old days of BR and found that in those early days the relationship between the workforce and management was one of "give and take" at the end of the day we were all there to run a railway ? and it worked !
I can't however say the same about the last few years upto my early retirement after "privatisation" !
However I don't think it helps to "castigate" a person who,through "no fault of his own" is thrown into a different scenario,and has achieved the status of a "manager",he after all was a "manager" in the BR days?
In conclusion however I must agree with "BillEWS" that OT does "overdo" the "vote Tory and all your problems will be over theory" perhaps he should have told that to David Cameron or should that be Nick Clegg ? The Jury is still out !! ?
 
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Bighat

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I hear Nick Clegg used to be Gordon Browns lover, but after Gordon rejected Nick's proposal, Nick Clegg set out to get revenge, slept with David Cameron and started blackmailing Gordon with the home sextape they made in Malaga 2 years ago in a bid to force him out of power. Gordon called his good friend Spiderman, and asked him to involved. Unfortunately Paddy Ashdown had him wacked.

What a strange and perverse comment to make!
 

jon0844

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I'm sure there are other forums for such erotic fiction and fantasy.
 

Geezertronic

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What a strange and perverse comment to make!

I think you need to take it in the jokey context it was meant. Since there are a couple of forum members who are making bold and unreferenced statements that to the majority seem complete bollocks, a few of us tried to lighten the mood by stating obvious bold and unreferenced statements ourselves :D
 

Wyvern

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If I might give my view of the history of railway investment and management.

The railways in Britain started as totally private ventures in competition with each other. The result of this in my area is two lines running more or less side by side from Chapel en le Frith and Chinley into Manchester with places that were little more than hamlets getting two stations. Meanwhile the largest town in the area - Buxton - never achieved main line status.

Even so the railways have never been free of government control. As far back as 1844 the Bill for the Regulation of the Railways contained provisions approximating to nationalisation although they didnt make it into the Act.

Within my own memory it seems whichever party has been power the cycles of investment and retrenchment have been more related to periods of boom and bust, than the dogma of successive governments.

It is because when money was granted it was felt it should be spent as quickly as possible before it was taken way again that so many expensive cockups have occurred.
 

PhilipW

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/Sigh

I looked up all the new Transport ministers, the furthest one from Westminster is 43 miles, most are as little as 10 miles. I guess we can look forward to an even more London centric investment policy.

Norman Baker is MP for Lewes in East Sussex, which I would guess is more than 43 miles from Westminster.

He is also a great advocate of the re-opening of the Uckfield-Lewes line and its electrification to help take the pressure of the Brighton main line. An excellent policy, in my opinion. I am sure he will advocate it within the DfT, I just hope his views will prevail in the long term.
 
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