Where Have the EMR Sunday Direct Services to Leeds Gone ?

[yorksrob]

This whole xmas period has been a dead loss for direct services from St Pancras to Wakefield.

However, I'm having difficulty finding any services on a Sunday from St P to Leeds on a Sunday in the new year.

I've checked January and February as well as on NRE and Fast JP all to no avail. Yet the services seem to exist in the published timetable but not on the internet.

Surely they must have them running at some time ?

 

[cactustwirly]

This whole xmas period has been a dead loss for direct services from St Pancras to Wakefield.

However, I'm having difficulty finding any services on a Sunday from St P to Leeds on a Sunday in the new year.

I've checked January and February as well as on NRE and Fast JP all to no avail. Yet the services seem to exist in the published timetable but not on the internet.

Surely they must have them running at some time ?

Have you checked for engineering works?
There's a 1835 STP - LDS service on the 19th January, but not on the 12th because of a line block between Bedford and Leicester

 

[yorksrob]

Have you checked for engineering works?
There's a 1835 STP - LDS service on the 19th January, but not on the 12th because of a line block between Bedford and Leicester

Cheers, That's one of the dates I missed out.

There are a lot of blocks on that section.

 

[DarloRich]

There are a lot of blocks on that section.

there is loads of work going on and i guess the Leeds services are " non core" so to speak as the load can be carried via Kings Cross/ECML services

 

[yorksrob]

there is loads of work going on and i guess the Leeds services are " non core" so to speak as the load can be carried via Kings Cross/ECML services

I suspected that might be the case.

 

[cactustwirly]

there is loads of work going on and i guess the Leeds services are " non core" so to speak as the load can be carried via Kings Cross/ECML services

There are no services south of Leicester, so no HSTs are used, therefore it's pointless to run a Leeds service

 

[Skymonster]

There are no services south of Leicester, so no HSTs are used, therefore it's pointless to run a Leeds service

What a load of cobblers. If they are in the public timetable and the line is not under a possession they should run. The railway is not run for the convenience of the TOC that doesn’t need to get HSTs to and from Neville Hill - it is run for the public who have a right to expect services to operate unless there is an overwhelming reason why they cannot.

 

[cactustwirly]

What a load of cobblers. If they are in the public timetable and the line is not under a possession they should run. The railway is not run for the convenience of the TOC that doesn’t need to get HSTs to and from Neville Hill - it is run for the public who have a right to expect services to operate unless there is an overwhelming reason why they cannot.

Because 2 trains a day makes all the difference

 

[Deerfold]

there is loads of work going on and i guess the Leeds services are " non core" so to speak as the load can be carried via Kings Cross/ECML services

Unfortunately there's engineering works on the East Coast every weekend in January and February. I was looking for these to avoid the East coast...

 

[cactustwirly]

Unfortunately there's engineering works on the East Coast every weekend in January and February. I was looking for these to avoid the East coast...

Just get an XC or NR service to Sheffield, for EMR from there?

 

[Deerfold]

Just get an XC or NR service to Sheffield, for EMR from there?

I'm already changing at Leeds and London.I it helps to have an option without yet another change.

 

[yorksrob]

Because 2 trains a day makes all the difference

Yes they do - people can rely on those two trains.

It's pretty shoddy to cancel timetabled trains for no good reason.

 

[DarloRich]

Unfortunately there's engineering works on the East Coast every weekend in January and February. I was looking for these to avoid the East coast...

i did just this last Sunday from Leeds. The EMT train was a lovely HST but it was VERY busy

 

[Ianno87]

What a load of cobblers. If they are in the public timetable and the line is not under a possession they should run. The railway is not run for the convenience of the TOC that doesn’t need to get HSTs to and from Neville Hill - it is run for the public who have a right to expect services to operate unless there is an overwhelming reason why they cannot.

From what I can see, Leeds/Wakefield are not in the Train Service Requirement for EMR, and so they have no obligation to run them. They are run for operational convenience only and (in effect) not contracted to do so with DfT, so it is not reasonable for a TOC to run them out of the goodness of their own heart, probably at a financial loss to themselves.

 

[A Challenge]

From what I can see, Leeds/Wakefield are not in the Train Service Requirement for EMR, and so they have no obligation to run them. They are run for operational convenience only and (in effect) not contracted to do so with DfT, so it is not reasonable for a TOC to run them out of the goodness of their own heart, probably at a financial loss to themselves.

There is no requirement to have them in the timetable if they are not in the TSR, but if they are in the timetable they should run, excluding engineering works but not 'operational convenience'.

 

[Ianno87]

There is no requirement to have them in the timetable if they are not in the TSR, but if they are in the timetable they should run, excluding engineering works but not 'operational convenience'.

On what grounds?

 

[yorksrob]

On what grounds?

Because that's the public timetable they've committed to.

 

[Ianno87]

Because that's the public timetable they've committed to.

Their commitment is their Train Service Requirement with the DfT, not the timetable.

The timetable is a combination of:
1) Meeting the Train Service Requirement
2) Commercial elements (i.e. services over an above (1) that make money.
3) Services for operational needs to support (1) and (2).

The Leeds services are outside of (1) during these engineering works, I doubt fulfil (2), therefore are not required for (3) and thus would be wasting taxpayers money in operating them.

 

[A Challenge]

Their commitment is their Train Service Requirement with the DfT, not the timetable.

The timetable is a combination of:
1) Meeting the Train Service Requirement
2) Commercial elements (i.e. services over an above (1) that make money.
3) Services for operational needs to support (1) and (2).

The Leeds services are outside of (1) during these engineering works, I doubt fulfil (2), therefore are not required for (3) and thus would be wasting taxpayers money in operating them.

So you are saying that is it isn't in the TSR the TOC can just decide they don't feel like operating the service because it isn't convenient?

 

[Ianno87]

So you are saying that is it isn't in the TSR the TOC can just decide they don't feel like operating the service because it isn't convenient?

No, they are under no obligation to operate it, it is not necessary to run it in order to operate what they are required to run south of Sheffield, and if it did run it would lose them money.

 

[yorksrob]

Their commitment is their Train Service Requirement with the DfT, not the timetable.

The timetable is a combination of:
1) Meeting the Train Service Requirement
2) Commercial elements (i.e. services over an above (1) that make money.
3) Services for operational needs to support (1) and (2).

The Leeds services are outside of (1) during these engineering works, I doubt fulfil (2), therefore are not required for (3) and thus would be wasting taxpayers money in operating them.

No, as passengers, we expect the railway to run to the timetable. We will accept changes due to disruption or engineering works, however not running trains willy-nilly, is not what we expect.

 

[JonathanH]

No, as passengers, we expect the railway to run to the timetable. We will accept changes due to disruption or engineering works, however not running trains willy-nilly, is not what we expect.

Most people now check train times through applications based on what is being offered on a particular day rather than in a printed timetable. To them there isn't really a published long term timetable just a service which is offered on the day they want to travel.

 

[Spartacus]

No, as passengers, we expect the railway to run to the timetable. We will accept changes due to disruption or engineering works, however not running trains willy-nilly, is not what we expect.

I know on previous occasions when an operator had been given grief for not operating a service they're not contractually committed to, they've simply withdrawn the service entirely.

 

[yorksrob]

Most people now check train times through applications based on what is being offered on a particular day rather than in a printed timetable. To them there isn't really a published long term timetable just a service which is offered on the day they want to travel.

That's probably truer for short distance services, rather than IC ones.

I know on previous occasions when an operator had been given grief for not operating a service they're not contractually committed to, they've simply withdrawn the service entirely.

These particular services form quite useful links between Yorkshire in the midlands. Perhaps they ought to be in the contract.

 

[Ianno87]

No, as passengers, we expect the railway to run to the timetable. We will accept changes due to disruption or engineering works, however not running trains willy-nilly, is not what we expect.

In which case, this is a change to the timetable due to engineering works, which passengers will happily accept.

Moderator note: discussion regarding paper timetables moved to https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...per-timetables-when-planning-journeys.198324/

 

[A Challenge]

In which case, this is a change to the timetable due to engineering works, which passengers will happily accept.

Basically nobody looks at printed timetables any more. Anybody with sense, especially at weekends, checks online journey planners....if they didn't they'd be expecting trains all the way to St Pancras!

If somebody knew there was Engineering works in London, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they can still do a journey wholly within Yorkshire, on a train that just happens to have come from London.

 

[Ianno87]

If somebody knew there was Engineering works in London, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they can still do a journey wholly within Yorkshire, on a train that just happens to have come from London.

Not as if there aren't other trains between Sheffield and Leeds. Nobody will be aiming for the EMR service soecifically.

 

[Mag_seven]

Not as if there aren't other trains between Sheffield and Leeds. Nobody will be aiming for the EMR service soecifically.

Apart from enthusiasts who want to travel on them because they are HST operated.

 

[berneyarms]

Just to point out that there are two sets of engineering works today - one between Market Harborough and Bedford, and the second between Sheffield and Nottingham with CrossCountry diverting between Wakefield and Sheffield via Doncaster.

So clearly paths north of Sheffield are going to be at a premium which when you combine the two is why the EMR Leeds services got canned, and people should use Northern or Cross Country.

 

[tbtc]

Apart from enthusiasts who want to travel on them because they are HST operated.

I think that that's what this thread boils down to, really.

If you're a 1970s nostalgist in the Wakefield area who wants to travel on a train with period features then the EMR services through West Yorkshire area great.

For most passengers, they are fairly irrelevant, and their cancellation (at a time when engineering works on the route means a scarcity of paths for other services) is understandable