New transport secretary

[Railsigns]

The Tories have an undisputable history of hostility towards the railways. Macmillan gave us Marples who in turn gave us Beeching, and Major forced privatisation on us. Thatcher hated railways. Nobody who cares about this country's railways can ever vote Conservative with a clear conscience. As for this coalition, the best we can do is sit it out and hope that it falls apart after a year or two before any real damage is done.

 

[Mojo]

I can! Because my Conservative candidate was the only one with any knowledge on transport, and who actively campaigned for it during her three years as a candidate!

I don't remember the last Conservative government, but I can see all around me what happened under it, including new stations and light rail that was all started under the Tories. I can also see how under Labour the railways have become more inefficient, with more Whitehall meddling and middle managers, to the point where it costs over £1 Million to build even the most basic of railway stations.

 

[142094]

to the point where it costs over £1 Million to build even the most basic of railway stations.

You'll probably find this will continue into the future no matter whatever government is elected.

 

[Old Timer]

The Tories have an undisputable history of hostility towards the railways. Macmillan gave us Marples who in turn gave us Beeching, and Major forced privatisation on us. Thatcher hated railways. Nobody who cares about this country's railways can ever vote Conservative with a clear conscience. As for this coalition, the best we can do is sit it out and hope that it falls apart after a year or two before any real damage is done.

Oh do go away and do a little reading before spouting that claptrap. :roll:



Been reading the Labour book of lies and distortions have we ?



FFS how often do we have to go down this path Mods ???

You'll probably find this will continue into the future no matter whatever government is elected.

You could well be right but to add to this, what needs to be recognised is that building a new station is a whole lot more complicated than it was under BR.

There are now a whole raft of DDA requirements, H&S specifications, security issues, as well as Inter-Operability Regs from the EU to contend with.

Add to that the completely bureaucratic and inefficient involvement of Network Rail who insist on micro-managing every Contractor and you can soon see how the cost rapidly rises.

 

[142094]

Exactly, but we'll have to wait and see if stripping away these inefficiencies will actually lower costs a great deal, and whether things will proceed at a quicker rate. What I'm guessing is that the costs and time will stay the same for most projects, and any savings made either through reducing inefficiency or cutting projects will shift money away from the railways to somewhere else.

 

[Mojo]

You'll probably find this will continue into the future no matter whatever government is elected.

I'm not so convinced we'll see much going on in the way of "new things" for a few years to come, but one thing that is certainly going to change is Network Rail and it's huge inefficiencies that sees a small proportion of its expenditure actually ending up in actual work on the ground.

 

[Railsigns]

Oh do go away and do a little reading before spouting that claptrap. :roll:


Been reading the Labour book of lies and distortions have we ?

You don't like the truth, do you, Tory boy?

 

[142094]

I'm not so convinced we'll see much going on in the way of "new things" for a few years to come, but one thing that is certainly going to change is Network Rail and it's huge inefficiencies that sees a small proportion of its expenditure actually ending up in actual work on the ground.

Neither am I. I would be very surprised to see if we get the much promised high speed line. Probably just end up in the 'to do later' tray.

 

[Pumbaa]

Neither am I. I would be very surprised to see if we get the much promised high speed line. Probably just end up in the 'to do later' tray.

It'll be interesting to see if the Tories listen to the report on why diverting HS2 to Heathrow is a ridiculous idea. That's my key interest to the Conservative plans on HS2. Hopefully they will see sense.

What's happened to Villiers now? Has Cameron realised she's crap?

 

[142094]

Well since they have already dumped the 3rd runway at Heathrow, they are going to have to do something to cater for the increased demand in the years to come. However I still can't see it happening, what I see is longer trains, and perhaps some new stock but not much infrastructure wise.

 

[Old Timer]

You don't like the truth, do you, Tory boy?

Truth ????

Bring it on chap, or would you rather I provided the FACTS ? (yet again)

Now just accept that your party has been consigned to the dustbin of history (even the Left leaning Libs wouldn't deal with you) and go away and find something constructive to do rather than post disingenuous statements, lies and leftist distortions of the truth.

Even better, actually ....you could start by working out exactly how much you will need to sacrifice in pay to provide you with a Pension for when you retire, those having been destroyed by Brown's vindictive tax grab.

 

[Railsigns]

Truth ????

Bring it on chap, or would you rather I provided the FACTS ? (yet again)

Now just accept that your party has been consigned to the dustbin of history (even the Left leaning Libs wouldn't deal with you) and go away and find something constructive to do rather than post disingenuous statements, lies and leftist distortions of the truth.

And just who do you suppose "my party" is, Tory Boy?

Here's a FACT for you: I didn't vote Labour at this general election or, for that matter, the previous one.

 

[Old Timer]

And just who do you suppose "my party" is, Tory Boy?

Here's a FACT for you: I didn't vote Labour at this general election or, for that matter, the previous one.

You assume my Political allegiance, so I will assume yours but based upon your ill-informed comments which literally come straight from the mouth of the Left.

 

[Donny Dave]

The Tories have an undisputable history of hostility towards the railways. Macmillan gave us Marples who in turn gave us Beeching, and Major forced privatisation on us. Thatcher hated railways. Nobody who cares about this country's railways can ever vote Conservative with a clear conscience. As for this coalition, the best we can do is sit it out and hope that it falls apart after a year or two before any real damage is done.

Hmm .... Refresh my memory please ....

Which party was in power (and who was the Prime Minister) when there was a lot of stations opened in the late 80s and early 90s, plus construction on the Manchester Metrolink started in 1988? Oh, not to mention the ECML being wired up and new stock ordered ....

Hang on, wasn't it the Conservatives and Margerat Thatcher? Not bad for someone who supposedly hates railways?

PS. Welcome back Old Timer.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

I'm not so convinced we'll see much going on in the way of "new things" for a few years to come, but one thing that is certainly going to change is Network Rail and it's huge inefficiencies that sees a small proportion of its expenditure actually ending up in actual work on the ground.

Agreed.

Just look at Chiltern who manage the infrastructure upgrades with NR just accepting the final product for standards compliance, things get done!!!!!!

Some more long term franchises with the appropriate vision seems to be the way forward for many routes.

What we dont need is more "Council Train Sets" like the Midland Metro Line 1.

That route should have been put back in as heavy rail to allow alternate half hourly Salop/Kidderminster London trains with stoppers pathed in between.

 

[Railsigns]

Hmm .... Refresh my memory please ....

Which party was in power (and who was the Prime Minister) when there was a lot of stations opened in the late 80s and early 90s, plus construction on the Manchester Metrolink started in 1988? Oh, not to mention the ECML being wired up and new stock ordered ....

Hang on, wasn't it the Conservatives and Margerat Thatcher? Not bad for someone who supposedly hates railways?

Oh, for Heaven's sake. Successive governments, both Tory and Labour, have made investments in rail that led to improvements, so don't try to pull the wool over our eyes by taking that line. But it's the Tories, and the Tories alone, that made the big political decisions that dramatically changed the railways for the worse. As Minister of Transport, Ernest Marples appointed Beeching to decimate the rail network, to the benefit of his road-building business. Major privatised the railways on the premise that subsidies would drop, but the reality is that it they have increased four-fold, with no corresponding improvement in services.

 

[Old Timer]

There is an awful lot of fat that can now be cut away without impacting at all on the front line.

Why for example does Network Rail need a Projects Division which just simply bureaucratises the work by micro-managing even the spend on toilet paper yet itself adds massive costs for no benefit whatsoever ?

There is no such similar organisation in Europe. If you take the Netherlands for example, ProRail simply issues and awards the tenders and the infrastructure Company delivers the work in co-operation not conflict.

David ....Thank you for your kind words

...As Minister of Transport, Ernest Marples appointed Beeching to decimate the rail network, to the benefit of his road-building business. Major privatised the railways on the premise that subsidies would drop, but the reality is that it they have increased four-fold, with no corresponding improvement in services.

So, pray do tell...............

WHICH Government was it, and WHICH Transport Minister was it that energetically imposed the bulk of the Beeching Cuts ?

And WHICH Government was it that allowed subsidies to rise since 1997 despite having several opportunities to bring franchises back into public ownership ??????

 

[the sniper]

Tut, tut.

Does your Mother know you are playing about on the computer ?

I am sure she will be most annoyed, so be a good child and go off to bed before she finds out, otherwise you could be in trouble.

Don't forget to take your medication either, you never know, but the bogeyman could be hiding in your room tonight.

Welcome back OT, where have you been?! You should have been around for this guys thread on the electrification of the Great Western main line, the 'uncomfortable truths' as he put it, or crazy conspiracy theory as everyone else saw it, made for fascinating reading.

You assume my Political allegiance...

No offence OT, but it's rather impossible NOT to know your political allegiance!

 

[Railsigns]

And WHICH Government was it that allowed subsidies to rise since 1997 despite having several opportunities to bring franchises back into public ownership ??????

I'm with you on this one, Tory Boy. I'm as disappointed as you that Labour squandered the opportunity to sort out the Tories' mess.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

There is an awful lot of fat that can now be cut away without impacting at all on the front line.

Why for example does Network Rail need a Projects Division which just simply bureaucratises the work by micro-managing even the spend on toilet paper yet itself adds massive costs for no benefit whatsoever ?

There is no such similar organisation in Europe. If you take the Netherlands for example, ProRail simply issues and awards the tenders and the infrastructure Company delivers the work in co-operation not conflict.

David ....Thank you for your kind words





So, pray do tell...............

WHICH Government was it, and WHICH Transport Minister was it that energetically imposed the bulk of the Beeching Cuts ?

There seems to be so much debate about the past here, lets start looking forward please, the leaders TV stuff is over!!

 

[Old Timer]

...No offence OT, but it's rather impossible NOT to know your political allegiance!

Hello Chap.

I fully admit that I am to the Right of Centre, however that does not mean I am a slave to Right Wing policies. I believe that the Railways should not have been Privatised as they were (although I understand WHY they were). There were considerable inefficiencies and some very bad management (as well as some very good management) under BR, however the work needed to bring the Railways up to modern standards could not have been supplied from the Treasury at that time.

I believe that properly structured the Railways can again be run without the need for massive public support but it is interesting to look at who has benefitted financially from Privatisation since 1997 and their particular Political affiliations and covert support.

A number of now very rich people made a killing from the Ralways, they have taken everything and given nothing back. Look at the facts and make your own mind up about what level of pre-knowledge they had about what would happen under Bliar

 

[WatcherZero]

Yep I was surprised Villiers didnt get it but had been saying she was crap since HS2 report was published and I saw her parliamentary debate.

Has no background in transport (shadow Health, Pensions, trade and industry, treasury), profesional background as director of firms in the manufacture of medical equipment and property development, so perhaps some engineering knowledge

Interestingly this new guy does most of his commuting to parliament by Car (which can be expected as his constituency is right on the edge of London), however he has the 24th highest rail expense claims for non-commuting business. Makes you wonder where he was going so much when he was previously Shadow Treasury?

*kicks himself* Probably visiting the Scottish Banks HQ

 

[tsubaki]

Whilst it is true that it was the Tories who brought in Beeching, and who privatized the railways, it its also true that Labour had manifesto commitments to stop/reverse both, and did neither.

 

[Aictos]

Welcome back OT, now we can see some decent debating!!!

 

[Metroland]

The Tories have an undisputable history of hostility towards the railways. Macmillan gave us Marples who in turn gave us Beeching, and Major forced privatisation on us. Thatcher hated railways. Nobody who cares about this country's railways can ever vote Conservative with a clear conscience. As for this coalition, the best we can do is sit it out and hope that it falls apart after a year or two before any real damage is done.

Not strictly true. In fact the Labour party implemented the Beeching cuts, despite trying to get elected on a ticket not to. Indeed, after the 1955 rail strike, costs on the railways rose dramatically, not just as a result of the modernisation plan but union pay demands.

New Labour put in Network rail as a political decision, mainly as they party was run off Tony Blair's sofa. The biggest threat the the railways currently is their unsustainable cost (with NR being a big part of that) - and yes I agree the Tory privatisation was botched.

If you look what we got under the Tories: ECML electrification (admittedly done on the cheap), quite a few tram schemes, T&W metro, quite a bit of electrification and resignalling. On the flip side it was run on the cheap, the Woodhead line closed and the S&C was threatened with closure.

Always makes me laugh about is how ideological people get over political parties. The simple answer is it doesn't automatically follow that the railways are better off under one political party or another, it depends who is in those political parties, good management of the railways, the structure, and who is prepared to promote them.

Take New Labour for example: Alistair Darling and Stephen Byres had an almost complete disdain for them, and during the white paper they even asked if they were outmoded and should be closed. At the opening of the NET tram in Nottingham, Darling was heard to say under his breath 'let's hope this is the last of these ridiculous, expensive schemes' - and consequently pulled funding for schemes all over the country (apart from his own area). It wasn't until Adonis (and perhaps Prescott to an extent) that anyone in that party paid any attention to them. Most of the money always went on touchy feely stuff politicians think people care about, and where money has been spent, its mostly been wasted, mainly because of politics.

The only reason why some people think the Labour party are for the railways is the brainwashing from certain unions to vote Labour. While there are people who are in the Tory party, like John Redwood and Margaret Thatcher that are not all that keen on them, there are equally people that are: Steven Norris, Michael Portillio, George Young.

 

[Old Timer]

Metroland

An excellent post, if you don't mind me saying.

 

[merlodlliw]

Metroland

An excellent post, if you don't mind me saying.

Hello Old Timer, It was never going to be someone of the calibre of Adonis
who defected from the Liberals to Labour, he did a good job & was respected.


The only good point now is, high speed rail takes first choice over runways,
we shall see. In Wales no one understands what our Minister wants or does.

If the new UK Minister of Transport understands trains run on lines,we may be halfway there.

 

[thegrich37423]

Oh, for Heaven's sake. Successive governments, both Tory and Labour, have made investments in rail that led to improvements, so don't try to pull the wool over our eyes by taking that line. But it's the Tories, and the Tories alone, that made the big political decisions that dramatically changed the railways for the worse. As Minister of Transport, Ernest Marples appointed Beeching to decimate the rail network, to the benefit of his road-building business. Major privatised the railways on the premise that subsidies would drop, but the reality is that it they have increased four-fold, with no corresponding improvement in services.

Exactly. The subsidies have increased to a point where the railway is no longer run in the interests of safety or to a satisfactory public standard. It's sole raison d'etre in life is to provide a steady stream of income to the fat cat investors.

 

[TDK]

Exactly. The subsidies have increased to a point where the railway is no longer run in the interests of safety or to a satisfactory public standard. It's sole raison d'etre in life is to provide a steady stream of income to the fat cat investors.

The railway is safer now than it has ever been, read the statistics on the HSE, HMRI and opsweb sites related to SPAD mitigation, passenger injuries, accidents at work, the trend is down and is continuing to decrease, this is not down to government because what ever governemt was in power over the last 10 years this would have still happened, this is down to the TOC's, FOC's and NR. So your post cannot be backed up by any evedence proving what you are trying to say!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst it is true that it was the Tories who brought in Beeching, and who privatized the railways, it its also true that Labour had manifesto commitments to stop/reverse both, and did neither.

Beeching did the railways a favour looking on it from a business point of view!

 

[Old Timer]

The Railway cannot exist in a historical or emotional vacuum like some here would like to think. Neither can they be protected from macro/micro economics.

Railways exist for the trasnportation of goods and passengers, not for the fulfilment of Political or emotional ideals, however well intentioned.

It is a matter of great regret, and has been to the detriment of the Railways since 1947, that they have become embroiled as a Political pawn, whereby one particular Political party has sought to become identified as the great "protector", and sought to persuade the general electorate that every other Party is the enemy, when in actual fact, the Railways were being used as a cynical Political tool all along.

One only has to look at Bliars best sofa cabinet efforts, which involved him threatening to pull funds for hospitals in areas where MPs voted against him and for re-nationalisation as a quick example.

No one Party has ALWAYS acted in the best interestes of British Rail, however some have been far more receptive to the needs for investment than others. I have to say on the basis of history since 1947, that Party has NOT been Labour.

Emotional argument, dressed up with a lack of historical knowledge and garnished with lies, distortions and half-truths spouted by both the Labour Party, the Trade Unions, and fellow travellers on the Left only detracts from a proper debate and serves to continue this ridiculous football game that transport has become embroiled in.

Those of us who have to try to manage what is currently there, and achieve the best that can be with limited funds would very much prefer if these emotional monologues could be diverted to the dustbin where they belong.