Staff rejecting tickets because the journey has commenced

[Bletchleyite]

Hmm, interesting. For what it's worth, I asked if it could be reversed because of the managed_booking_mark_ticket_as_unused string. I guess this is unused?

I've certainly not seen that option showed when I've pressed it.

Anyway, it sounds like this functionality does have some value after the journey is complete, but it would be better labelled "delete" or "move to trash"/similar.

Indeed, there is no point in doing it until you have walked out of your destination station.

 

[RPI]

Without actually scanning the ticket its impossible for any of us to know whether the ticket was valid or not.

 

[yorkie]

Unless there is a claim that the ticket has been refunded (and there is no such claim that I am aware of) there is sufficient evidence to see the ticket was valid.

If there was any sort of issuing error or clipping error that is an internal railway industry matter and does not invalidate the contract.

 

[gray1404]

Before I travel on any ticket that could be questioned (be this taking a different route to most people, an advance ticket with a connection that could be missed or if I intend on breaking my journey) I take a photograph of it on my phone. That way if it is ever even taken off me I have a record of what I showed and proof that I indeed had a valid ticket.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Without actually scanning the ticket its impossible for any of us to know whether the ticket was valid or not.

The difficulty with m-tickets is that when the app determines them to have expired it either removes the barcode altogether or greys it out and puts Expired across the middle so that the barcode can't be scanned, thus even if you have a scanner and can interrogate the scan history, you can't actually do that as the barcode can't be scanned. One of the great drawbacks for m-tickets both for revenue protection and for passengers who genuinely wish to break their journey over multiple days.

As an aside, a ticket can also show as expired if the passenger activates the wrong leg of the ticket on the wrong date.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best solution would be for all m-tickets to be got rid of entirely. The e-ticket is a far superior solution - though so far I've only seen Trainline actually implement them properly in an app.

 

[trebor79]

Stuff like this is one of the reasons I studiously avoid any kind of electronic railway ticket. I'll have the piece of card with orange at the top and bottom thank you very much.
Just too easy to mess up with app tickets. Numerous times I've seen discussions between guards and passengers because they've inadvertently forgotten to activate it, or have activated the wrong leg.
I bought one once, Scunthorpe to Doncaster because the TVM it wasn't accepting cards and such confusing faff it further put me off.

I don't understand what problem m and e tickets are supposed to be solving? They seem to create lots of problems though?

 

[Adam Williams]

The best solution would be for all m-tickets to be got rid of entirely. The e-ticket is a far superior solution - though so far I've only seen Trainline actually implement them properly in an app.

Honestly, just sending the PDF is sufficient for me. PDFs don't change, so they wouldn't start displaying text at some arbitrary point. The PDF viewers don't try to connect out on the internet when displaying the document, they can be printed etc. They're slightly less convenient than being displayed in-app in the same place as where you'd book journeys, I guess?

I don't understand what problem m and e tickets are supposed to be solving? They seek to create lots of problems though?

To be fair, the problems you describe with activation are only inherent to the m-variant tickets.

E-tickets aren't too bad, if I'm in a rush they're quicker than ToD. It's a shame there's no equivalent to the endorsements box, and they're definitely less reliable than a piece of paper in more than one aspect. That's just the reality of a solution that requires batteries with finite charge and software written by people though. They can be printed, though - which I'd argue is more convenient than ToD.

 

[_toommm_]

It's a shame there's no equivalent to the endorsements box,

I believe there is an area for guards to write things on their scanning app, although I don't know if this is universal across all TOCs or whether it is just TOC-specific.

 

[L401CJF]

Related to the OP and as a possible suggestion on how to deal with such issues.

I use m-tickets on my smartphone for local bus travel (First Potteries). Once activated a single ticket is valid for just 15 minutes, whilst the journey can last for up to 60 minutes. A clock ticks down from 15 minutes to zero, the ticket then moves from 'Active Tickets' to 'Expired Tickets'. Seemingly therefore I am travelling without a valid ticket to show to any inspector and am liable to a standard fare of £100. However, buried within the T and C's (or perhaps FAQ's) is a something like 'your expired ticket remains valid until you have completed your journey, show your expired ticket to an inspector'. I guess most passengers haven't actually thought about this potential problem, and if confronted with it would expect the inspector to know about the continued validity of an expired ticket.

If the ticket has a QR code which is scanned on the machine when boarding, inspectors print a journey summary when boarding which would show your code has been scanned. Last time i used First Potteries they still had the old non-QR Almex machines though. If the expired ticket still shows a QR, inspectors can scan them and it'll show when/where/route/fleet no it was scanned on to determine if it was valid when boarding.

 

[Bungle965]

I believe there is an area for guards to write things on their scanning app, although I don't know if this is universal across all TOCs or whether it is just TOC-specific.

Avanti and EMR have TTK which gives the guard the ability to write things in a sort of comment section.

 

[Adam Williams]

I believe there is an area for guards to write things on their scanning app, although I don't know if this is universal across all TOCs or whether it is just TOC-specific.

Avanti and EMR have TTK which gives the guard the ability to write things in a sort of comment section.

Ah, excellent! Seems like something that should definitely be standardised across TOCs.

 

[Starmill]

A member of Avanti West Coast staff making a catastrophic error, resulting in unlawful charges being applied to a consumer? Oof, shocker!

 

[Starmill]

The best solution would be for all m-tickets to be got rid of entirely. The e-ticket is a far superior solution - though so far I've only seen Trainline actually implement them properly in an app.

Quite the opposite - some companies, such as Greater Anglia, are happy to expand m-tickets, but are still resisting e-tickets for flows they control.

 

[yorksrob]

Stuff like this is one of the reasons I studiously avoid any kind of electronic railway ticket. I'll have the piece of card with orange at the top and bottom thank you very much.
Just too easy to mess up with app tickets. Numerous times I've seen discussions between guards and passengers because they've inadvertently forgotten to activate it, or have activated the wrong leg.
I bought one once, Scunthorpe to Doncaster because the TVM it wasn't accepting cards and such confusing faff it further put me off.

I don't understand what problem m and e tickets are supposed to be solving? They seek to create lots of problems though?

To use the words of another poster, they are a solution looking for a problem.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m not entirely sure what the difference between an E-ticket and M-ticket is, however from the screenshot I’m going to assume it’s a ticket which is validated by the scanning of a QR code.

I’ve seen the app reject tickets such as Reading - Petersfield or Oxford - Fareham as ‘clipped by XC123ab’ or ‘clipped by GW456cd’ which are clearly valid on the 2nd part.

I’ve also seen passengers invalidate their ticket by passing in and out of gate lines, where the app believes the journey has been completed.


Finally, there’s the fraudulent ‘cancelled by TTL’ or where a screenshot of the ticket has been taken, then edited to make it appear valid, but the barcode still shows the ticket is invalid due to dates or stations.

 

[Intermodal]

I’m not entirely sure what the difference between an E-ticket and M-ticket is, however from the screenshot I’m going to assume it’s a ticket which is validated by the scanning of a QR code.

An m-ticket is the one with the moving coloured line and requires activation. An e-ticket is a barcoded ticket displayed in any number of formats but always with a barcode.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly, just sending the PDF is sufficient for me. PDFs don't change, so they wouldn't start displaying text at some arbitrary point. The PDF viewers don't try to connect out on the internet when displaying the document, they can be printed etc. They're slightly less convenient than being displayed in-app in the same place as where you'd book journeys, I guess?

Indeed. When you're in a rush it's easier to display it that way than faffing about with email attachments and Adobe Reader. It's just that bit slicker.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve seen the app reject tickets such as Reading - Petersfield or Oxford - Fareham as ‘clipped by XC123ab’ or ‘clipped by GW456cd’ which are clearly valid on the 2nd part.

That isn't a rejection, that's advising staff that they have been clipped by that person/operator, just the same as if a paper ticket had that marking on it from a stamp.

If staff are interpreting the display of when a ticket has been stamped as it being automatically invalid (rather than it may or may not be valid and needs human confirmation), they need training. If the app is showing it as a clear reject (i.e. "not valid", not just that a barrier would reject for human verification) rather than a "check this information to ensure validity", it needs rewriting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To use the words of another poster, they are a solution looking for a problem.

M-tickets probably are now we have e-tickets.

E-tickets do solve a problem - the problem of wanting to arrive at the station and not break stride on the way to the train rather than having to plan for arbitrary queue lengths at the ticket office or TVM. They also save the TOC money because they need to provide fewer ticket windows/TVMs due to fewer people wanting to use them. Win-win.

There are other solutions, such as a season ticket (if it suits) or PAYG type smartcard/contactless, of course.

 

[talltim]

Ah, excellent! Seems like something that should definitely be standardised across TOCs.

Standardise things across TOCs? Think you need some more sleep!

 

[pompeyfan]

That isn't a rejection, that's advising staff that they have been clipped by that person/operator, just the same as if a paper ticket had that marking on it from a stamp.

If staff are interpreting the display of when a ticket has been stamped as it being automatically invalid (rather than it may or may not be valid and needs human confirmation), they need training. If the app is showing it as a clear reject (i.e. "not valid", not just that a barrier would reject for human verification) rather than a "check this information to ensure validity", it needs rewriting.

the app itself is rejecting the ticket as apposed to wanting a human to confirm. On scanning a QR ticket using the software I’ve been trained on, you get green (valid, no input required), white (something needs checking such as a route if the ticket can not be completed on the head code of the train, railcard etc) red (not valid, incorrect date, journey already complicated, wrong operator, specific train etc). If the ticket has been recently presented on another operator, the system will reject it.

another bug that I’ve noticed, ticket could be valid Paddington - Reading for example but you’ve already called there and on the way to Taunton, the app still believes the ticket is valid.

 

[AlterEgo]

This looks link another reason why I, and many of us on this forum, continue to advise people not to use this and other m-tickets. I would not personally use them under any circumstances, from any operator. A proper orange paper ticket or, at worst, an e-ticket is what I use, and in the latter case only ever with a printed copy to be on the safe side. It's not the technology, it's the implementation coupled with the lack of staff training (to be generous) or the incorrect employment of people incapable of doing their job properly.

Wait until you see the people charged up for having a scribble on the ticket because it's already been checked. Seen far more paper ticket issues than m- or e-ticket ones like this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the app itself is rejecting the ticket as apposed to wanting a human to confirm. On scanning a QR ticket using the software I’ve been trained on, you get green (valid, no input required), white (something needs checking such as a route if the ticket can not be completed on the head code of the train, railcard etc) red (not valid, incorrect date, journey already complicated, wrong operator, specific train etc). If the ticket has been recently presented on another operator, the system will reject it.

That is a very, very serious issue. Only if the ticket has been used at the printed destination, i.e. where if it was a paper ticket it'd have been eaten by the barriers (and where there's no valid onward travel e.g. Waterloo East), should a "stamp" consider it used rather than asking for a manual verification.

Has it been reported as an issue via your TOC's channels?

The other reasons for "showing red" seem valid, just not that one.

 

[pompeyfan]

I assume it’s the equivalent of ‘passback’ as we get exactly the same message if a group of passengers accidentally show us the same barcode, rather than their own ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume it’s the equivalent of ‘passback’ as we get exactly the same message if a group of passengers accidentally show us the same barcode, rather than their own ticket.

Yeah, it is probably poorly-implemented passback - either way it needs fixing, passback can only logically apply at the same location.

Passback also needs human confirmation rather than being a flat reject anyway - the person may have entered a barrier, changed their mind on the train (e.g. because it was packed), left the barrier and entered a different one to make their legitimate journey.

Flat rejection only really makes sense for tickets that cannot possibly be valid unless special consideration is in place, e.g. wrong TOC.

 

[AlterEgo]

A member of Avanti West Coast staff making a catastrophic error, resulting in unlawful charges being applied to a consumer? Oof, shocker!

Well quite! The colour of the trains might change but the culture won't...

 

[jfollows]

Wait until you see the people charged up for having a scribble on the ticket because it's already been checked. Seen far more paper ticket issues than m- or e-ticket ones like this.

I wince every time the black marker pen gets used indiscriminately.
As other have said, the difference for me is that with a "real" ticket there's a (hopefully not now obscured by the marker pen scribble) "Valid until" date and a card ticket isn't capable of reprinting itself and changing this. At worst case, and it's never happened to me, I would pay any incorrect extra fare demanded and know how to get this money back. To be fair, I've only seen stories of problems and when I've travelled I've only ever had courtesy and polite acceptance of what might appear to be an "unusual" story when I've broken my journey overnight or similar.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Honestly, just sending the PDF is sufficient for me. PDFs don't change, so they wouldn't start displaying text at some arbitrary point. The PDF viewers don't try to connect out on the internet when displaying the document, they can be printed etc. They're slightly less convenient than being displayed in-app in the same place as where you'd book journeys, I guess?

Of course, this is a solved problem for every airline of any note: the barcode can be displayed in the operator's app, or sent to a PDF to print. Or indeed saved to a mobile 'wallet', if that's your thing.

Yes, railways have more complex questions over validity than airlines. But once you've accepted the principle that the ticket may be a random bit of paper with a barcode on it, all the complexity is on the server side. It really ought not to be difficult for a TOC to emulate what airlines have been doing for years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, railways have more complex questions over validity than airlines. But once you've accepted the principle that the ticket may be a random bit of paper with a barcode on it, all the complexity is on the server side. It really ought not to be difficult for a TOC to emulate what airlines have been doing for years.

There's one fairly big difference - airlines do not sell walk-up tickets. By the time you get anything with a barcode on it, you've specified a flight. It's also specific to your name.

Even flexible airline tickets are just an equivalent of an Advance but where the admin fee and fare difference is waived and refund is permitted.

FWIW I actually think the railway would do better putting names on tickets. That way stations and traincrew could offer reprints if ID is shown, such as if your battery runs out or your phone has been nicked but your wallet with ID not. Almost every train ticket is purchased knowing full well who it's for (I'd expect well over 90% of adult tickets are purchased *by* the person it's for). For the odd cases where it isn't you could have the option for a non-named ticket at the same price but waiving the right to a reprint.