Making the Conwy Valley less uneconomic

[HSTEd]

So... what we need is a new nuclear power station at Trawsfynydd so the line stays open, then trigger a modernisation to try and make it a useful facility?

 

[Belperpete]

An alternative way would be not to close it outright but to lop it at Betws

It's very much a line of two halves

I was thinking about Tomos' comment about how to improve journey times, and I think you have hit the nail on the head. The lower half of the line, between Llandudno Junction and Bettws, runs in the valley floor, with mostly fairly sweeping curves. Improving line speeds on this section should not be too costly (in railway terms). The upper half of the line, on the other hand, from Bettws to Blaenau, was originally planned to be a narrow gauge line, and it shows - a lot of the line is a sequence of very sharp curves, and some stretches with very stiff gradients. Upgrading this part of the line would be very costly. It would probably be cheaper and easier to start again and build a completely new route, as upgrading an existing line costs far more per mile than building new.

Lopping the line at Bettws makes sense, as the trains often run virtually empty after there. Halving the length of the line means the service could be doubled, without needing any extra stock or staff. With an enhanced rail service between Llandudno and Bettws, the existing bus service between those places could be reduced. And the resource used to extend the existing hourly Criccieth-Porthmadog-Blaenau service through to Bettws to connect with the train. Passengers between Criccieth/Porthmadog and Llandudno would still need to change between bus and train, but would do so at Bettws rather than Blaenau, and should have a much more frequent service.

Currently there is little incentive to do anything to improve line speeds in the Ll Jcn-Bettws section, as it would make virtually no difference to the timetable. But without the upper-half of the line, improving line speeds in the lower half of the line could bring real benefits. Investments, such as raising line speeds and automating Tal-y-Cafn, might then be justifiable. I could even envisage a two-train service, crossing at Llandudno Jcn, at peak times.

 

[Belperpete]

Could electric buses make it that far up and over Crimea?

I would consider an electric bus/trolleybus hybrid, as currently being trialled in Prague and elsewhere. Trolley wires up the Crimea, and at the terminii, with the trolley automatically rising and lowering on the move. Runs as conventional electric bus on battery power on the flat(ish) sections, power from the OLE on the steep uphill section where the battery wouldn't be sufficient, and recharge the battery when going downhill and at the terminii.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could even envisage a two-train service, crossing at Llandudno Jcn, at peak times.

It might well be easier to do something like that (or even some kind of portion working from afar) once everything is CAF rather than needing to keep the Valley 150/153 separate from everything else.

Even without linespeed improvements you could get the top section to 0.5tph clockface (timed to connect to trains from either Crewe or Manchester, whichever is felt to bring most custom - probably Manchester) which would not only be easier to make it the basis of an upgraded Snowdon Sherpa network and grow tourist revenue, but also just be a bit easier to work with for everyone.

I would mourn the passing of the southern half as it's utterly stunning, and I'd do my best to be on the last train (though I do equally well love a bus ride over the Crimea Pass - in the days of Express Motors I often did one way by bus and one way by train), but being realistic the case for the northern half is strong (not quite as strong as Windermere but not far off) due to the high potential to get cars out of the National Park, but the case for the southern half very weak, particularly if there was to be a bad rockfall in the tunnel which almost seems due.

 

[Belperpete]

You could do a two-hourly service along the current route, passing at Llanrwst North, at the cost of an extra unit and staff, which could be justified as a summer-time trial.

The big problem with this suggestion is that you cannot currently cross trains at Llanrwst North. It would need significant investment to refurbish or renew the interlocking to allow it, which could hardly be justified for a summer-time trial.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The big problem with this suggestion is that you cannot currently cross trains at Llanrwst North. It would need significant investment to refurbish or renew the interlocking to allow it, which could hardly be justified for a summer-time trial.

It might be possible to do two hourly clockface with one unit once the CAF sets arrive (though not running to Llandudno, just the Junction) - it was done in the past but was found to be unreliable. However the CAF units' acceleration is incredible for a DMU - they perform better than most 1980s EMUs and not far off modern ones - which if you also made more stations request stops you might well be able to do it reliably, at least as a trial to see what it does to loadings on which bit of the line.

 

[Belperpete]

Even without linespeed improvements you could get the top section to 0.5tph clockface (timed to connect to trains from either Crewe or Manchester, whichever is felt to bring most custom - probably Manchester)

I doubt that there would be much through traffic from that far away, but there should be potential for substantial traffic from the coastal resorts such as Colwyn Bay and Rhyl. I have a vague recollection that during the 70s or 80s there were are a few through services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt that there would be much through traffic from that far away

If it was restyled as the gateway to the National Park there could well be. There's more tourism in the Lakes so it'll never be quite as busy as Windermere, but it does have the potential to fulfil a similar role with some thought on the timetable[1] and quality bus connections.

I really think Snowdonia is let down by its public transport - it could be so much more, and the very simple road layout makes it much easier to serve than the Lakes, too. I reckon with decent through connections from Liverpool and Manchester you could easily get a smallish market for an integrated public transport journey to get from Liverpool/Manchester to Snowdon, back to Betws, a few pints and the last train home on a Saturday. Enough people do it by car every week.

[1] In particular a later evening Friday service - not having that, and not having Sundays all year (soon to be fixed I believe), is throwing away weekend tripper revenue.

 

[Llanigraham]

I would consider an electric bus/trolleybus hybrid, as currently being trialled in Prague and elsewhere. Trolley wires up the Crimea, and at the terminii, with the trolley automatically rising and lowering on the move. Runs as conventional electric bus on battery power on the flat(ish) sections, power from the OLE on the steep uphill section where the battery wouldn't be sufficient, and recharge the battery when going downhill and at the terminii.

Knowing the attitude of the Snowdonia National Park planners, you'd have fun getting permission to fit poles along the roadside!

 

[Belperpete]

I really think Snowdonia is let down by its public transport - it could be so much more,

Fully agree. Services have been steadily pared back over the years (as have services in many other areas), but received a real knock-back with the collapse of Express Motors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fully agree. Services have been steadily pared back over the years (as have services in many other areas), but received a real knock-back with the collapse of Express Motors.

Though even with them they were not a quality operation. If you want to attract the tourists to anything other than the Llanberis/Pen Y Pass P&R where other than getting up at 5am and paying a tenner to park there's no real choice, you're going to have to get the quality Stagecoach have in the Lakes (or Southern Vectis), not just "a bus" which is what Express put out. Erratically driven Dennis Darts won't do for the tourists even if the locals would rather it just cost a quid.

What that probably means is something like (as per Vectis and Stagey in the Lakes) quite expensive day tickets and weekend tickets for tourists (but with the quality to go with them), but lower priced seasons and residents' multi journey type tickets to avoid pricing the often not-very-well-off locals off the bus entirely.

And again look at the timetable. If there is no Friday evening service, you can't do a weekend away by public transport other than with an expensive taxi. I'm going to be at Snowdon Ranger YHA the weekend after next, and the only viable mode of transport is car as a result as I can't leave the SE until after work. I could easily be on the 1840 from MKC (1810 from Euston) or could push to the 1740 (1710) if I started work early, but the 1640 is the last connection from MKC to Betws[1] (with no buses onwards) and that's just too early to be viable. So the car it is.

[1] Yes, I know, via Bangor and Caernarfon is better for that location...but no buses from Caernarfon that way after about 1800 either - it's just not workable.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

What that probably means is something like (as per Vectis and Stagey in the Lakes) quite expensive day tickets and weekend tickets for tourists (but with the quality to go with them), but lower priced seasons and residents' multi journey type tickets to avoid pricing the often not-very-well-off locals off the bus entirely.

This is a really important point. It's sometimes assumed by urban-dwellers and tourists that people who live in National Parks must be fairly affluent. It's a myth fed by programmes like "Escape to the Country". The truth is that some of the most deprived communities in the UK are located within National Parks. This is especially true of the former slate-quarrying communities of Snowdonia which, in many ways, are mirror images of the former coal-mining communities of south Wales and the north east of England.

 

[option]

Isn't the answer; "improve the economic development of the area"

You've got an attraction at the southern end, Ffestiniog Railway, & a holiday resort at the northern end, Llandudno, & various attractions & activities in-between.
Working to promote what's in the area could lead to more people going to the area, & more people using the service.

 

[krus_aragon]

Isn't the answer; "improve the economic development of the area"

You've got an attraction at the southern end, Ffestiniog Railway, & a holiday resort at the northern end, Llandudno, & various attractions & activities in-between.
Working to promote what's in the area could lead to more people going to the area, & more people using the service.

Ideas on a postcard to the Conwy Valley Rail Partnership will be greatly appreciated, I'm sure!

 

[option]

I was thinking about Tomos' comment about how to improve journey times, and I think you have hit the nail on the head. The lower half of the line, between Llandudno Junction and Bettws, runs in the valley floor, with mostly fairly sweeping curves. Improving line speeds on this section should not be too costly (in railway terms). The upper half of the line, on the other hand, from Bettws to Blaenau, was originally planned to be a narrow gauge line, and it shows - a lot of the line is a sequence of very sharp curves, and some stretches with very stiff gradients. Upgrading this part of the line would be very costly. It would probably be cheaper and easier to start again and build a completely new route, as upgrading an existing line costs far more per mile than building new.

The lower half, from LLJ, is 30mins travel time, 35mins for the upper half.
How much time could be cut out for the lower half?

Is there any possibility of time improvements on Junction-Llandudno, so that all trains could do that section as well. That's currently 10mins each way.


The risk with cutting it back to Betws;
it would save more, & free up stock/staff for improvements elsewhere, to shut the entire line
you would lose any support in Blaenau for the line overall (Blaenau pop 4000, Betws-y-Coed pop 560)

 

[krus_aragon]

Is there any possibility of time improvements on Junction-Llandudno, so that all trains could do that section as well. That's currently 10mins each way.

Much of the time north of Glan Conwy is taken up standing still at Llandudno Jn (for a combination of token exchange and waiting for connecting trains) and the usual PPM padding when heading toward the terminus of Llandudno.

The risk with cutting it back to Betws;
....
you would lose any support in Blaenau for the line overall (Blaenau pop 4000, Betws-y-Coed pop 560)

And you lose the appeal of changing from train to train, forthose travelling to/from the Ffestiniog railway.

 

[option]

And you lose the appeal of changing from train to train, forthose travelling to/from the Ffestiniog railway.

It goes further than that.
If the line was cut back to Betws, & you then had to change to bus to go further, why wouldn't you just use the bus from Llandudno, it's going to be the same bus all the way along the A470.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it would save more, & free up stock/staff for improvements elsewhere, to shut the entire line
you would lose any support in Blaenau for the line overall (Blaenau pop 4000, Betws-y-Coed pop 560)

Those figures don't tell the whole story. Betws has a low population but an absolutely massive tourist "population" plus connectional demand onto the Snowdon Sherpa network. It's an ideal transport hub for the National Park to reduce car usage. Blaenau may have a population of 4K but barely any tourists go there except for a wander round and a fag while waiting for the return Ffestiniog train.

 

[Belperpete]

It goes further than that.
If the line was cut back to Betws, & you then had to change to bus to go further, why wouldn't you just use the bus from Llandudno, it's going to be the same bus all the way along the A470.

Only if the council subsidised a competing bus service, which is highly unlikely.

 

[krus_aragon]

Only if the council subsidised a competing bus service, which is highly unlikely.

They're currently giving a partial subsidy to a bus service that's more frequent than the railway (which is subsidised by central governments). North of Llanrwst, it's pretty much an hourly bus service.


The bit of the bus route that needs subsidising is the Betws-Blaenau bit, the same bit that might see its rail service withdrawn under this idea. If a bus service is run between Blaenau and Betws, I'll wager the operator will find it worthwhile to run it through to Llandudno as a commercial operation, or in combination with an existing route.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Those figures don't tell the whole story. Betws has a low population but an absolutely massive tourist "population" plus connectional demand onto the Snowdon Sherpa network. It's an ideal transport hub for the National Park to reduce car usage. Blaenau may have a population of 4K but barely any tourists go there except for a wander round and a fag while waiting for the return Ffestiniog train.

I really don't understand this downer you have on Blaenau. It's a town with a stunning landscape, a fascinating history and an increasing buzz about it. Cell B, Antur Stiniog and the Pengwern in Llan are all social enterprises founded by local people of limited means that are starting to turn the fortunes of the place around.

I just don't get your snearing attitude. As other posters have pointed out, Blaenau today is very different from the picture you paint of it and the local people who are working hard to revive it deserve praise and encouragement not cheap shots.

 

[splashoutradio]

Whilst the figures might not tap in to any potential enhancements, I was surprised to learn that in the latest station usage figures, Blaenau Ffestiniog had an extra 4,610(12.5%) passengers per year. Not bad for a line that locals often complain have services going to the places of employment at useful times.
Blaenau Ffestiniog - 39,932
Betws-y-Coed - 35,322

 

[Bald Rick]

Those figures don't tell the whole story. Betws has a low population but an absolutely massive tourist "population" plus connectional demand onto the Snowdon Sherpa network. It's an ideal transport hub for the National Park to reduce car usage. Blaenau may have a population of 4K but barely any tourists go there except for a wander round and a fag while waiting for the return Ffestiniog train.

But how many people staying in Betws:

a) live in a place that has reasonable rail connections to it
b) then wants to spend their whole holiday in Betws, or somewhere you can get public transport to - essentially where the train goes to or Llanberis
c) want to be tied to the bus / train times

Not many I fancy. People want to use the car to go around the whole area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But how many people staying in Betws:

a) live in a place that has reasonable rail connections to it
b) then wants to spend their whole holiday in Betws, or somewhere you can get public transport to - essentially where the train goes to or Llanberis
c) want to be tied to the bus / train times

Not many I fancy. People want to use the car to go around the whole area.

Yet plenty of people do use the bus to get round the Lakes, which is a very comprehensive network. (b) is false by the way, the Snowdon Sherpa network, albeit infrequent, will take you anywhere in the Park pretty much.

We really need to reduce car use in our National Parks. The only way to do that is going to be to improve the public transport.

 

[Meerkat]

I really don't understand this downer you have on Blaenau. It's a town with a stunning landscape, a fascinating history and an increasing buzz about it. Cell B, Antur Stiniog and the Pengwern in Llan are all social enterprises founded by local people of limited means that are starting to turn the fortunes of the place around.

I just don't get your snearing attitude. As other posters have pointed out, Blaenau today is very different from the picture you paint of it and the local people who are working hard to revive it deserve praise and encouragement not cheap shots.

In the spring I got off the Ffestiniog in Blaneau thinking I could go for a wander and find some lunch.
It was chucking down with rain, nowhere looked inviting, there only seemed to be one street (which was a busy A-road) with barely anything on it - it is just an uninspiring village. I ended up grabbing something from the co-op and eating it on the platform.
It may not be a slum but it’s most certainly not a tourist honeypot.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yet plenty of people do use the bus to get round the Lakes, which is a very comprehensive network. (b) is false by the way, the Snowdon Sherpa network, albeit infrequent, will take you anywhere in the Park pretty much.

We really need to reduce car use in our National Parks. The only way to do that is going to be to improve the public transport.

I know, I use the buses in the lakes myself. But Betws / Llanberis is nowhere near the scale of tourism that is Ambleside / Bowness / Keswick, where the bus network works because of the numbers of people there. The roads in the Lakes are also full of cars, despite the good transport.

I know about the Snowdon Sherpa too, and only one of them serves Betws. The others are next to no use if you are staying there.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

In the spring I got off the Ffestiniog in Blaneau thinking I could go for a wander and find some lunch.
It was chucking down with rain, nowhere looked inviting, there only seemed to be one street (which was a busy A-road) with barely anything on it - it is just an uninspiring village. I ended up grabbing something from the co-op and eating it on the platform.
It may not be a slum but it’s most certainly not a tourist honeypot.

It can feel that way. It's very early days in it's recovery but here's a few interesting facts for you.

Blaenau based artist Richard Long recently had an extremely well recieved exhibitions at the National Museum in Cardiff.

https://www.artfund.org/supporting-...d-buy/artwork/11905/blaenau-ffestiniog-circle

Blaenau is at the heart of Welsh language music scene having produced more bands and artists than any other town in Wales incliding Yws Gwynedd who regualrly tops the 'all time top 100' in Wales.

Llechwedd and Bounce Below are high class and popular tourist attractions.

Look, I get it. I'm a Welsh speaker and Blaenau is a magical place for me, the heart of Eryri and a place of huge cultural and historical significance. I can understand why others might prefer the English Victorian confection of "Betsie Koyd". Your countryside playground is my cultural homeland and that's fine. It can be both.

If you want to understand Blaenau though just ask someone local. It's not that hard if you drop your blinkers.

 

[Meerkat]

You just aren’t seeing it as a tourist - there is nothing to see in Blaenau centre. I can’t believe anyone would say “let’s get the train up to Blaenau, have a wander about and a spot of lunch”.
I really don’t mean to offend, and have no anti-Welsh axe to grind, but the attractions are all outside of town, which makes the train unattractive compared to the car.

 

[option]

Those figures don't tell the whole story. Betws has a low population but an absolutely massive tourist "population" plus connectional demand onto the Snowdon Sherpa network. It's an ideal transport hub for the National Park to reduce car usage. Blaenau may have a population of 4K but barely any tourists go there except for a wander round and a fag while waiting for the return Ffestiniog train.

Those connections would exist just as easily if it was only buses running up the valley to Betws & beyond. It's also a service only every 3 hours.

The service is being subsidised by TfW, which is the citizens of Wales. It's the locals in Blaenau that vote, & write to their MP & AM, not the tourists.


You would likely find that cutting the service back saves very little;
if you've increased the frequency on the north half*, then there are zero savings on stock & staff running costs. (even if you dont, the hours round trip won't be costing much)
possibly no savings on Network Rail charges

You would then have to subsidise an alternative public transport provision.


Any large infrastructure costs will come from a separate budget to the operating budget.



* even if you've doubled it, that's still only a train every 1.5hours

 

[krus_aragon]

I really don't understand this downer you have on Blaenau. It's a town with a stunning landscape, a fascinating history and an increasing buzz about it. Cell B, Antur Stiniog and the Pengwern in Llan are all social enterprises founded by local people of limited means that are starting to turn the fortunes of the place around.

I just don't get your snearing attitude. As other posters have pointed out, Blaenau today is very different from the picture you paint of it and the local people who are working hard to revive it deserve praise and encouragement not cheap shots.

In the spring I got off the Ffestiniog in Blaneau thinking I could go for a wander and find some lunch.
It was chucking down with rain, nowhere looked inviting, there only seemed to be one street (which was a busy A-road) with barely anything on it - it is just an uninspiring village. I ended up grabbing something from the co-op and eating it on the platform.
It may not be a slum but it’s most certainly not a tourist honeypot.

Maybe we can all agree that while Blaenau has a significant cultural scene and a number of tourist attractions in the immediate area, it's not a very successful commercial centre at the moment.

(Mind you, there are plenty of other high streets that look depleted these days, so Blaenau's hardly alone in that.)