Child mistake- train fare price

[Jane Oakley]

I have an unpaid fare to novice, my 16 year old bought a child Trainline ticket travelling for the first time valine to Plymouth from Torre after her exams.
The woman who stopped her said she would phone me but never did, nor did she phone school and she was very intimidating towards her. I’m told she followed correct procedure. I gave can make pained as I feel they gave little regard for any safeguarding . Daughter now getting highly anxious re any train travel and customer service say as I can’t give exact time they can’t follow up , I say they must know who issued the unpaid notice.

It’s not the cost, I’d happily give a donation to railway children or the children’s mental health Gwr say they support it’s the lack of following through any safety concerns leaving my child in a complete anxious state now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps she should have purchased the correct ticket, then? A 16 year old is old enough to know.

If you have the UFN, pay it, or better have her pay it.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Perhaps she should have purchased the correct ticket, then? A 16 year old is old enough to know.

If you have the UFN, pay it, or better have her pay it.

OP, this might sound brutal but it's true.

Not sure where safeguarding fits in to this issue really. She was an adult fraudulently using a child ticket.

A life lesson learnt, which is what growing up is about.

 

[Darandio]

Can you expand more on what you feel are safety/safeguarding concerns?

She was travelling without a valid ticket and was given an unpaid fare notice and presumably travelled to her destination? I cannot really see that the emotive language and outrage is required, other than you need to pay the amount required before it can be escalated further.

 

[Jane Oakley]

Yeah buts it’s a financial adult only, can’t leave school , can’t vote . Fare enough in my day when we were leaving and getting a job at 15/16 but now it’s s different world.

The safeguarding is that the railways have a whole policy to protect vulnerable kids, not my child but we know here in Devon a lot of kids are part of county lines and very vulnerable and I think making that phone call as she said she would would have sorted things straight away

 

[Sebastian O]

Safeguarding is preventing abuse and harm.
Your child not buying the correct ticket is not a safeguarding manner when they get pulled up on it.

 

[Jane Oakley]

What I am trying to portray is that when a child is stoppped at a train station, fo making the wrong payment or any other reason then staff should make a phone call about their concerns, who’s is what the woman said she would do, but clearly didn’t . See the links below that illustrate why I use the term safeguarding.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.devonlive[URL='https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/how-spot-signs-county-lines-2461425.amp']https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/how-spot-signs-county-lines- [/URL]
As does.
[URL='https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/how-spot-signs-county-lines-2461425.amp']2461425.amp.com/news/devon-news/how-spot-signs-county-lines-2461425.amp[/URL]
. In my daughters case it was her making a mistake but in some cases in Devon exploitation is taking place on the railways and staff following through concerns and being mindful of children travelling alone is a good thing

 

[Darandio]

What you are portaying is silly, exploitation and a county lines drug network is not at all relevant to someone who was simply given a UFN for having the incorrect ticket.

Now if she had been turfed off the train in an unknown location I could completely understand any safeguarding concerns. But you haven't said this was the case and it appears she continued the journey as normal.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have an unpaid fare to novice, my 16 year old bought a child Trainline ticket travelling for the first time valine to Plymouth from Torre after her exams.
The woman who stopped her said she would phone me but never did, nor did she phone school and she was very intimidating towards her. I’m told she followed correct procedure. I gave can make pained as I feel they gave little regard for any safeguarding . Daughter now getting highly anxious re any train travel and customer service say as I can’t give exact time they can’t follow up , I say they must know who issued the unpaid notice.

It’s not the cost, I’d happily give a donation to railway children or the children’s mental health Gwr say they support it’s the lack of following through any safety concerns leaving my child in a complete anxious state now.

I'm not trying to be rude but any chance you can use edit function to make your OP clear in terms of what you are saying? I guess you have posted on your phone etc but it's hard to understand - as I am sure you will see if you re-read.

On the point, I would say it's widely known that you pay adult train fare at 16 (tho in case you do not know there is a new railcard that would help your daughter), tho fully accept your daughter may not have known that - but when I was at school everyone would have known!

I suspect post 16 years olds 'trying it on' with child fares is a regular issue for trains, which probably explains the attitude of staff. Though if they said they would phone you, they should have done. But that's maybe something to put in writing in a complaint to GWR about in the hope they may give staff better guidance.

Sorry to hear the it's putting your daughter off, but I guess lessons learned (a bit like being caught speeding...?) - the train is a great way for her to get more independence - and a way for you to have to spend less time giving her lifts maybe! - so maybe get her one of these new railcards, make sure she knows when she can use it, clear this penalty notice etc and put the incident behind you.

Also - one other bit of advice - Don't buy tickets from The Trainline - they make add on charges etc and don't sell any cheaper tickets than anyone else despite their hype. Buy from GWR website if they are your local train company, or maybe buy from ticket office or ticket machine at station if just a local journey on the day.

PS - Not sure it says much about safegaurding on GWR wesbsite but i may have found wrong bit - this says:
https://www.gwr.com/help-and-support/travelling-with-children-and-animals

Children should be mature enough to understand the risks involved with rail travel. It is up to a child’s parent, or guardian, to decide if they can travel alone.
If we’re worried about a child’s safety, we'll contact the British Transport Police for help and advice.

Which maybe implies they reckon it's your responsibility to advise your child that they need an adult ticket!

 

[WesternLancer]

What I am trying to portray is that when a child is stoppped at a train station, fo making the wrong payment or any other reason then staff should make a phone call about their concerns, who’s is what the woman said she would do, but clearly didn’t . See the links below that illustrate why I use the term safeguarding.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.devonlivehttps://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/how-spot-signs-county-lines-
As does.
2461425.amp.com/news/devon-news/how-spot-signs-county-lines-2461425.amp
. In my daughters case it was her making a mistake but in some cases in Devon exploitation is taking place on the railways and staff following through concerns and being mindful of children travelling alone is a good thing

I would agree with Darandio here

If the staff thought she was at risk in the way you suggest then their policy would have been to call BTP in. I suspect that this would have been even more a cause of anxiety to your child if they did!

Not sure why they would say they would ring you or the school actually (I'm not disputing they DID say it) - how would that conversation go - 'I've just caught your child travelling with a non valid ticket and we are thus issuing a penalty notice, this is just to let you know what you will find out in due course'. Doesn't seem like a sensible use of anyone's time to me really, just my personal opinion of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I am trying to portray is that when a child is stoppped at a train station, fo making the wrong payment or any other reason then staff should make a phone call about their concerns, who’s is what the woman said she would do, but clearly didn’t.

She issued the UFN so it could be dealt with afterwards. This sounds a sensible course of action. There is no Safeguarding issue with this - it's not like she was chucked off the train. Is the UFN just for the fare? If so there is nothing wrong here, just a life lesson. It could have had a £80-100 admin fee on top if they wanted to be awkward, or depending on the TOC could potentially have been a Penalty Fare.

I would venture that almost no 16 year old has ever purchased a child fare accidentally other than maybe the day or two after their birthday. But a lot of 16 year olds do it on purpose - a mistake in the sense of a poor choice (for which there are rightly consequences, because to do so is fraud), but not in error.

It strikes me that this was dealt with entirely properly. The UFN should be paid, she should be told very firmly that she must not do this again and that if she does there is a good chance she could get a criminal record, and it will be the end of the story, hopefully with a lesson well learnt.

 

[Jane Oakley]

Thanks yes college sent a link about the 16-18 train pass which I will buy. It’s a funny age., not considered a child or adult.
No I did not know about other train sites, are you restricted to that company only. Here in s Devon we have a number of companies using the same routes

I’m pleased you picked up my main dispute in that I thought a phone call should have been made. Customer service say I need to know the time she got to plymouth station, which I don’t. I had thought they could cross reference with the payment demand notice. Of note there was a kind guard at newton abbot who helped when the connecting train had been cancelled and she was unsure which train to catch. He saw she was nervous .

And I guess I think if more people looked to a possible vulnerability rather than it just being naughty then we’d have a better society.

Oh well I will log off now contemplate next steps

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yeah buts it’s a financial adult only, can’t leave school , can’t vote . Fare enough in my day when we were leaving and getting a job at 15/16 but now it’s s different world.
...

Not quite sure when 'your day' was, OP, but in 'my day' the age limit for adult fares was 14 and above. This was a real burden for many of us, although, in truth, a lot more 'flexibility' was applied at the bookng offices. It helped if you were a bit baby-faced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I guess I think if more people looked to a possible vulnerability rather than it just being naughty then we’d have a better society.

What was she vulnerable to, exactly? Being a bit upset because she was admonished for buying the wrong ticket? That's called a life lesson. One is not entitled not to be upset when caught doing something wrong.

Is she afraid of travelling by train not having purchased the correct ticket to do so? Good, everyone should be and everyone should purchase the correct ticket (with a bit of allowance for genuine confusion, but if you are confused you still have to pay the correct fare once "caught" - which is precisely what this UFN is for!). I'd venture there is not a single 16 year old out there who uses trains and doesn't know that they are not entitled to a child fare. Whereas there are an awful lot of 16-17 year olds who try it on, and this kind of light "slap" of having to pay the correct fare and explain to parents why the letter has arrived is a very good, not overly heavy-handed way of delivering the message.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks yes college sent a link about the 16-18 train pass which I will buy. It’s a funny age., not considered a child or adult.
No I did not know about other train sites, are you restricted to that company only. Here in s Devon we have a number of companies using the same routes

No, all sales channels can sell almost all tickets. Generally the best value way, though, because of special offers (which the Trainline can't do as they don't run any trains), is to buy with the main operator you are travelling with. In that case you often also get the benefit of other features like seat selection.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks yes college sent a link about the 16-18 train pass which I will buy. It’s a funny age., not considered a child or adult.
No I did not know about other train sites, are you restricted to that company only. Here in s Devon we have a number of companies using the same routes

I’m pleased you picked up my main dispute in that I thought a phone call should have been made. Customer service say I need to know the time she got to plymouth station, which I don’t. I had thought they could cross reference with the payment demand notice. Of note there was a kind guard at newton abbot who helped when the connecting train had been cancelled and she was unsure which train to catch. He saw she was nervous .

And I guess I think if more people looked to a possible vulnerability rather than it just being naughty then we’d have a better society.

Oh well I will log off now contemplate next steps

Thanks Jane
On your points: Yes, that railcard should really help your daughter. I turned 16 in the 80s, had used trains a lot before and after, grew up in a rural area. My bike to get me to the station and the local train service helped me learn to become more independent - without noticing at the time!

16-18 - yes, laws have changed about school leaving etc and the UK railways have not caught up!

Sites to buy tickets: Any train company sells all tickets, so if you have a few local to you just use the ones with the easiest to use websites. Because they also run the trains it is easier to get refunds when things go wrong. If you use '3rd party' like The Trainline - who are just an agent and run no trains, when there is a problem it is harder to get it sorted IMHO. I'm guessing most trains on your line are GWR so that is why I'd use them to buy from TBH.

Who 'caught' your daughter: yes GWR should be able to trace this. But would need a clue. If you give date and rough time of travel from where she got on, people on this site will be able to tell you arrival times at destination (or probable ones) - even knowing if it was weekday or sat or sunday is prob enough to work this out - exact date may not be required. But I would take it up in writing / e-mail customer services, waste of time ringing in my view.

Whilst I think it would have been a waste of time for the staff to say they would ring you, my view is if they SAID they would, they should have tried to do so and that is really the only point to raise with GWR IMHO.

I sympathise with comments of others about 16 year olds trying it on etc, and that in fact in theory your daughter could have got a much tougher 'penalty' but if you want to raise it with GWR customer services in an effective manner, then hope this advice is of help.

 

[Jocques]

.

Also - one other bit of advice - Don't buy tickets from The Trainline - they make add on charges etc and don't sell any cheaper tickets than anyone else despite their hype. Buy from GWR website if they are your local train company, or maybe buy from ticket office or ticket machine at station if just a local journey on the day.

True, they're a massive ripoff.

 

[Jocques]

Your daughter is 16, which is old enough for a lot of things that I'm sure she's already done. Safeguarding would only be an issue if they left her in a dark station in the middle of the night, unless she's vulnerable (which doesn't mean a histrionic teen).

It sounds a lot like you're hoping they let her off and you're playing the concerned parent card. I hope that's not the case.

 

[najaB]

I have an unpaid fare to novice,

An Unpaid Fare Notice is an invoice for the correct fare due. Pay it and move on.

 

[MikeWh]

Controversial alert!

There may not be a technical safeguarding issue here, but that doesn't mean that the girl didn't feel anxious. People mature at different ages. One 16 year old might laugh the whole issue off while another could burst into tears and be inconsolable. I think some of the sanctimonious posting on here has been a little over the top. I don't know how many of you have got kids of your own, but how each parent deals with a situation depends heavily on the individual circumstances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There may not be a technical safeguarding issue here, but that doesn't mean that the girl didn't feel anxious.

It is right and proper to feel anxious if you have done something wrong. It's a natural feeling that builds up an aversion to doing that thing again.

Making a child feel a bit anxious when they have done something wrong is NOT a safeguarding issue either technical or practical.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Surely it is up to train companies collectively to decide which fares apply to certain age groups. Buses also class adults as those over the age of 16, buses and other private attractions for example even apply adult rates at 12 years and above. They are already introducing a railcard which combats this problem.

 

[6Gman]

Controversial alert!

There may not be a technical safeguarding issue here, but that doesn't mean that the girl didn't feel anxious. People mature at different ages. One 16 year old might laugh the whole issue off while another could burst into tears and be inconsolable. I think some of the sanctimonious posting on here has been a little over the top. I don't know how many of you have got kids of your own, but how each parent deals with a situation depends heavily on the individual circumstances.

This is very true.

However what we have in this case is a 16 year old who is considered sufficiently mature to travel on her own (from Torre to Plymouth) who has purchased the wrong ticket. She is then issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice ("this is what you should have paid, please pay it as soon as possible"). So far, so good.

The staff member is said to have been "intimidating". Maybe she was; maybe she wasn't. We weren't there.
The staff member - it is reported - said she would phone a parent. Again, not being there we don't know exactly what was said. Such conversations are often misheard or misunderstood.

If the parent(s) want to make a complaint regarding the behaviour of the staff member that's up to them.

But - on the substantive issue - pay the UFN.

 

[6Gman]

I’m pleased you picked up my main dispute in that I thought a phone call should have been made. Customer service say I need to know the time she got to plymouth station, which I don’t. I had thought they could cross reference with the payment demand notice. Of note there was a kind guard at newton abbot who helped when the connecting train had been cancelled and she was unsure which train to catch. He saw she was nervous .

Did the incident take place at Plymouth then?

Surely she knows (roughly at least) what time she left Torre and what time she reached Plymouth?

 

[Jane Oakley]

She issued the UFN so it could be dealt with afterwards. This sounds a sensible course of action. There is no Safeguarding issue with this - it's not like she was chucked off the train. Is the UFN just for the fare? If so there is nothing wrong here, just a life lesson. It could have had a £80-100 admin fee on top if they wanted to be awkward, or depending on the TOC could potentially have been a Penalty Fare.

I would venture that almost no 16 year old has ever purchased a child fare accidentally other than maybe the day or two after their birthday. But a lot of 16 year olds do it on purpose - a mistake in the sense of a poor choice (for which there are rightly consequences, because to do so is fraud), but not in error.

It strikes me that this was dealt with entirely properly.

Did the incident take place at Plymouth then?

Surely she knows (roughly at least) what time she left Torre and what time she reached Plymouth?

Did the incident take place at Plymouth then?

Surely she knows (roughly at least) what time she left Torre and what time she reached Plymouth?

Did the incident take place at Plymouth then?

Surely she knows (roughly at least) what time she left Torre and what time she reached Plymouth?

ok just to reply to few comments
Yes of course she knows she left Torre around 9, the connecting train was either cancelled or delayed so she was between 30 minutes or an hour at newtonnabbot and guard helped her navigate the best train. Yes the UFN has an administrative fee plus highest adult single fare so coming out at just under£40 , an on the spot penalty would have been £20 which I could have paid by phone straight away. Yes children do mature at different ages which is exactly my point re vulnerability and if every 16 year old was as wise as you guys seem to think you were then we wouldn’t be launching information on county lines. I shall log off for good now and thank those who gave helpful information and agree there are some rather sanctimonious people I hope my daughter never has the misfortune to sit next to on a train

 

[6Gman]

ok just to reply to few comments
Yes of course she knows she left Torre around 9, the connecting train was either cancelled or delayed so she was between 30 minutes or an hour at newtonnabbot and guard helped her navigate the best train.

If she left Torre on the first train after 9 it was presumably the 0920, due into Newton A at 0928.

The connection would be the 0947 which - as you say - was either cancelled or delayed. If she was at Newton A for 30-60 minutes she would have left around 1000 to 1030. The journey to Plymouth takes around 40 minutes, so why not tell Customer Services "not sure exactly when she arrived but between 1040 and 1110 ?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder for anyone posting in this section to bear in mind the following requirements: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/please-read-before-posting-in-disputes-prosecutions.77759/

Our rules do require posts to be respectful; if anyone sees a post they reasonably believe to be "sanctimonious", please use the report button to let us know.

 

[6Gman]

Yes the UFN has an administrative fee plus highest adult single fare so coming out at just under£40 , an on the spot penalty would have been £20 which I could have paid by phone straight away.

I'm not familiar with GWR but is this accurate? My understanding was that their policy was £20 or twice the single fare, whichever is the greater. Is that correct?

 

[Busaholic]

Controversial alert!

There may not be a technical safeguarding issue here, but that doesn't mean that the girl didn't feel anxious. People mature at different ages. One 16 year old might laugh the whole issue off while another could burst into tears and be inconsolable. I think some of the sanctimonious posting on here has been a little over the top. I don't know how many of you have got kids of your own, but how each parent deals with a situation depends heavily on the individual circumstances.

The most sensible post on this thread imo.

 

[Jane Oakley]

I'm not familiar with GWR but is this accurate? My understanding was that their policy was £20 or twice the single fare, whichever is the greater. Is that correct?

Full single fare quoted at 12.70 plus irregularities settlement at £25 to be more precise. The £20 or twice single fare ( shows as £8 on trainline) is the lower fixed penalty fine which was not “offered” I guess they look to retrieve the highest amount possible