EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

Is it *really* helpful or appropriate to use an insult which derives from skin colour?

I agree with you on that one, name-calling is unnecessary.
However there are some that the rule shouldn't apply to, eg. one Mr. Boris Johnson, Mark Francois etc etc!! However the adjectives I could use would result in a ban....

 

[DarloRich]

Is it *really* helpful or appropriate to use an insult which derives from skin colour?

eh? i suspect my fair/pale skin tone and the fact i go a very gammon colour in the sun means it is OK for me to use that phrase.

 

[DarloRich]

Why do you insist on using such insulting language to describe a fellow human being and participator in our democratic process?

Give it rest. it is hardly an insult. I could use much worse terms but would be banned.

 

[Geezertronic]

No - as @edwin_m says, you have a single transferable vote so you vote for 1st and 2nd preferences. I voted remain and still think that's right, but I would prefer May's deal to no deal so would put it second. It seems to me highly unlikely that "no deal" would win.

But in the event that a Remainer wanted Remain and no other 2nd option, would their ballot paper be considered as spoilt/incomplete if no 2nd option was chosen?

 

[Geezertronic]

I agree with you on that one, name-calling is unnecessary.
However there are some that the rule shouldn't apply to, eg. one Mr. Boris Johnson, Mark Francois etc etc!! However the adjectives I could use would result in a ban....

So one rule for one, and one rule for another if that person is someone you dislike?

 

[anme]

But in the event that a Remainer wanted Remain and no other 2nd option, would their ballot paper be considered as spoilt/incomplete if no 2nd option was chosen?

Why would it be considered spoilt?

 

[edwin_m]

But in the event that a Remainer wanted Remain and no other 2nd option, would their ballot paper be considered as spoilt/incomplete if no 2nd option was chosen?

Unless some very strange rule was introduced, the first choice vote would be valid but wouldn't be transferred to any other if the first choice was eliminated. It's therefore probably best to vote for a second option however much you dislike it, as long as you dislike the remaining option more!

 

[Howardh]

So one rule for one, and one rule for another if that person is someone you dislike?

Yes, if they are in a Conservative government. And to think I once used to vote for them. Stupid plankton idiot. (I'm referring to me, by the way)

 

[Howardh]

Why would it be considered spoilt?

Would it be the case where if it went to a second vote, then it simply couldn't be counted? Don't think we've ever had a preference election/ballot before - anyone??

 

[Doppelganger]

Would it be the case where if it went to a second vote, then it simply couldn't be counted? Don't think we've ever had a preference election/ballot before - anyone??

London Mayrol elections work like this I believe

 

[bramling]

eh? i suspect my fair/pale skin tone and the fact i go a very gammon colour in the sun means it is OK for me to use that phrase.

I don’t really see how name-calling adds much to the debate, especially when it’s based on a physical characteristic. The more mud-slinging I see from the remain side, the less I am inclined to consider any arguments made.

 

[Howardh]

London Mayrol elections work like this I believe

Thanks.

 

[Spamcan81]

I don’t really see how name-calling adds much to the debate, especially when it’s based on a physical characteristic. The more mud-slinging I see from the remain side, the less I am inclined to consider any arguments made.

Like there's been no mud slinging from the Leave side? Those of us on the other side of the divide are all "Remoaners" according to may Leavers and to my face I've been called a coward and unpatriotic for voting remain. So please don't play the victim.

 

[bramling]

Like there's been no mud slinging from the Leave side? Those of us on the other side of the divide are all "Remoaners" according to may Leavers and to my face I've been called a coward and unpatriotic for voting remain. So please don't play the victim.

“Remoaner” isn’t based on a physical characteristic.

If being a late-middle-aged man with dark pink skin complexion (which based on a perusal of the internet seems to be the generally accepted group this term attempts to describe) is such a problem in the Brexit debate then by all means let’s hear why, rather than descending to the level of the school playground.

 

[Strat-tastic]

Give it rest. it is hardly an insult. I could use much worse terms but would be banned.

Maybe not to you.

 

[DarloRich]

Maybe not to you.

Really? It is no more an insult than being called a traitor or a saboteur or such like

 

[DerekC]

Like there's been no mud slinging from the Leave side? Those of us on the other side of the divide are all "Remoaners" according to may Leavers and to my face I've been called a coward and unpatriotic for voting remain. So please don't play the victim.

I have been called unpatriotic, too. The Brexiteers seem to think that waving lots of UK flags means that they care more about their country than others.

 

[bramling]

Really? It is no more an insult than being called a traitor or a saboteur or such like

Can you really not see the difference? A traitor is a word describing a particular type of behaviour. A gammon in this instance apparently refers to someone having pink skin. The former is a characteristic within someone’s control, the latter isn’t and is about as meaningless and unsophisticated as the term “spotty teenager”.

 

[Howardh]

I have been called unpatriotic, too. The Brexiteers seem to think that waving lots of UK flags means that they care more about their country than others.

Don't worry, we've been told we "won't starve".

Nothing about an immediate budget lowering our taxes in leau of the huge windfall Brexit will bring, just that it's OK that we won't starve. That's made me almost want to support Brexit. So relieved that I won't starve.

 

[DarloRich]

Can you really not see the difference? A traitor is a word describing a particular type of behaviour. A gammon in this instance apparently refers to someone having pink skin. The former is a characteristic within someone’s control, the latter isn’t and is about as meaningless and unsophisticated as the term “spotty teenager”.

Sorry - I lack sophistication

 

[EM2]

Can you really not see the difference? A traitor is a word describing a particular type of behaviour. A gammon in this instance apparently refers to someone having pink skin. The former is a characteristic within someone’s control, the latter isn’t and is about as meaningless and unsophisticated as the term “spotty teenager”.

'Gammon' specifically refers to those who get very flushed when they are worked up about leaving the EU and the supposed thwarting of it. It doesn't apply to someone who gets very flushed when they are worked up about football, or GTR, or the lack of aubergines in Morrisons, or roadworks on the A23. It also relates to a particular type of behaviour.
It was used in a similar fashion by Charles Dickens in 'Nicholas Nickleby'

The time had been, when this burst of enthusiasm would have been cheered to the very echo; but now, the deputation received it with chilling coldness. The general impression seemed to be, that as an explanation of Mr. Gregsbury’s political conduct, it did not enter quite enough into detail; and one gentleman in the rear did not scruple to remark aloud, that, for his purpose, it savoured rather too much of a 'gammon' tendency.

The meaning of that term—gammon,' said Mr. Gregsbury, 'is unknown to me. If it means that I grow a little too fervid, or perhaps even hyperbolical, in extolling my native land, I admit the full justice of the remark. I am proud of this free and happy country. My form dilates, my eye glistens, my breast heaves, my heart swells, my bosom burns, when I call to mind her greatness and her glory.

 

[bramling]

Sorry - I lack sophistication

It’s a bit of a bugbear in all honesty.

One of the positives about growing up is making the transition from the school yard where people with unusual characteristics are often (or at least were in my day - hopefully things are a bit more enlightened now) on the receiving end of abuse, to the adult world where people have hopefully matured and been educated to realise it’s simply wrong to vilify people for characteristics they can’t control. It bugs me to see the Brexit debate regressed to such a level.

 

[bramling]

'Gammon' specifically refers to those who get very flushed when they are worked up about leaving the EU and the supposed thwarting of it. It doesn't apply to someone who gets very flushed when they are worked up about football, or GTR, or the lack of aubergines in Morrisons, or roadworks on the A23. It also relates to a particular type of behaviour.

I think this proves my point about how daft the term is...

 

[ainsworth74]

I don’t really see how name-calling adds much to the debate, especially when it’s based on a physical characteristic. The more mud-slinging I see from the remain side, the less I am inclined to consider any arguments made.

Good job no such accusations could be leveled at the Leavers side of things then!

(Daily Mail front page referring to Tory MPs as "11 self-consumed malcontents" and "Diehard Tory Remainers were accused of treachery last night...")

(Daily Mail front page stating "CRUSH THE SABOTEURS" and referring to calling the bluff of "Remoaners")

(Daily Mail front page referring to three judges as "ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE")

 

[Howardh]

Proud to be an "Enemy Of The People" and "saboteur" me. Can I have a t-shirt??

A lot of the Leavers seem to have forgotton that in 2017 May put the option of a hard Brexit in front of us and asked us to vote for it and increase her majority; we didn't and she lost that majority and needed the DUP to prop her up.

 

[Killingworth]

Four years ago I bought a small car and specifically requested a standard European international numberplate. It seemed to be an unusual request, but they humoured me and said it would cost no more. It came with a plain plate without blue flag and stars which they had to change.

It was at that point that I probably realised the way the wind was blowing. Nobody's having those any more was the clear signal. I was out of step.

I'm afraid the Remain camp fought a poor campaign and has done far too little since to change those minds determined to exit come hell or high water. Unless a superhuman hero comes forward very soon the cause is as good as lost. The case is good, but when even Ken Clarke seems to have given up where is there a leader who can collect enough supporters to form a credible remain government, with or without an election?

The Tory shambles would be bad enough, but Labour's contribution is every bit as bad and probably worse. LibDems should be cleaning up, but they're deluding themselves if they think the Brecon by-election is a sign of resurrection. Being neither Tory, Brexit or Labour is not enough. They so miss Paddy Ashdown's campaigning.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Four years ago I bought a small car and specifically requested a standard European international numberplate. It seemed to be an unusual request, but they humoured me and said it would cost no more. It came with a plain plate without blue flag and stars which they had to change.

It was at that point that I probably realised the way the wind was blowing. Nobody's having those any more was the clear signal. I was out of step.

I'm afraid the Remain camp fought a poor campaign and has done far too little since to change those minds determined to exit come hell or high water. Unless a superhuman hero comes forward very soon the cause is as good as lost. The case is good, but when even Ken Clarke seems to have given up where is there a leader who can collect enough supporters to form a credible remain government, with or without an election?

The Tory shambles would be bad enough, but Labour's contribution is every bit as bad and probably worse. LibDems should be cleaning up, but they're deluding themselves if they think the Brecon by-election is a sign of resurrection. Being neither Tory, Brexit or Labour is not enough. They so miss Paddy Ashdown's campaigning.

You are indeed correct the Remain campaign was poor or maybe naive to the ease at which leading people up the garden path would be.

I'm afraid anything they would have done in the last three years wouldn't have worked. You can't sell the status quo, it's not sexy (neither are the band).

The cult of Brexit has a full church of believers and I believe we are in for a new country with new rules and beliefs. We are approaching a tipping point

 

[takno]

I don’t really see how name-calling adds much to the debate, especially when it’s based on a physical characteristic. The more mud-slinging I see from the remain side, the less I am inclined to consider any arguments made.

Never seen the slightest evidence you are inclined to consider any remain arguments however they are phrased. Any time spent entertaining your proclivities on how arguments are made would seem to be wholly wasted tbh

 

[mailbyrail]

600+ pages, going round in the usual circles, of which I've read about 10%, but I really have learnt something at long last - the basis of the term gammon. Many thanks EM2. That's not sarcasm, it really is genuine thanks, so much has been bandied about that is based upon supposition, guesswork, fear that this really is a fact that I always wondered how on earth it came about.
I'll probably dip back in one day to find out if anything else useful has been added.
zzzzzzzzzz

 

[krus_aragon]

Would it be the case where if it went to a second vote, then it simply couldn't be counted? Don't think we've ever had a preference election/ballot before - anyone??

London Mayrol elections work like this I believe

University Student Unions usually use transferable vote systems too.