Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[PR1Berske]

You do know that Milton Keynes (which is probably the primary beneficiary of HS2 in many ways) is not in London, right? Or are you so stuck in your bubble that anything south of Birmingham is London?

MK is within the sphere of influence of London and you know that to be true.

 

[Esker-pades]

But why can't we think differently? You sneer and sniff, but think outside the usual London-based rail establishment. If we stopped calling Euston the one and only destination for all Northern traffic, there could be just as much opening up of opportunities as suggested by HS2 supporters. Why do HS2 people obsess over the old fashioned idea of "Euston is full, let's build a new railway line"? Why not "It might be necessary to look into the capacity of Euston so let's look elsewhere" ?

More than just Euston station is full.

• The Southern section of the WCML is full (London - Rugby)
• The section from Coventry to Birmingham is full
• The section from Stockport to Manchester is full
• The section from Stoke to Manchester cannot serve intermediate stations (such as Congleton) adequatley with the fast services taking up the line

etc.
etc.

There are no capacity problems which cannot be sorted by just looking at things from a different angle.

You keep saying that, but you have never provided any solutions. You just throw out these empty phrases. The lack of solutions over 50+ pages of thread suggests that you don't have any.

 

[EM2]

And I'd be the happiest man on the forum when it happens.

We'll remind you of that the first time you mention an overcrowded WCML service.

 

[EM2]

If we stopped calling Euston the one and only destination for all Northern traffic,

It clearly isn't. There's St Pancras and King's Cross for starters.

 

[The Ham]

But why can't we think differently? You sneer and sniff, but think outside the usual London-based rail establishment. If we stopped calling Euston the one and only destination for all Northern traffic, there could be just as much opening up of opportunities as suggested by HS2 supporters. Why do HS2 people obsess over the old fashioned idea of "Euston is full, let's build a new railway line"? Why not "It might be necessary to look into the capacity of Euston so let's look elsewhere" ?

There are no capacity problems which cannot be sorted by just looking at things from a different angle.

Euston is full, Kings Cross is full, Paddington is full, Waterloo is full, Manchester Piccadilly is full (by full 4% or greater Pixc).

Paddington & Liverpool should be fixed (to an extent) by Crossrail.

Waterloo can be fixed by Crossrail 2, with Liverpool Street gaining again.

Kings Cross, Marylebone, Euston can be fixed by HS2. As can Manchester Piccadilly.

Therefore, let's ignore Euston and the WCML for the time being, what do we do to fix Kings Cross or Marylebone if not HS2?

 

[6Gman]

But why can't we think differently? You sneer and sniff, but think outside the usual London-based rail establishment. If we stopped calling Euston the one and only destination for all Northern traffic, there could be just as much opening up of opportunities as suggested by HS2 supporters. Why do HS2 people obsess over the old fashioned idea of "Euston is full, let's build a new railway line"? Why not "It might be necessary to look into the capacity of Euston so let's look elsewhere" ?

There are no capacity problems which cannot be sorted by just looking at things from a different angle.

Well, I've tried standing on my head but there still don't appear to be many (if any) spare paths on the WCML.

So, if we are not to send traffic to Euston where should we send it?

St Pancras - full.
Kings Cross - full.
Marylebone - full.

 

[The Ham]

Well, I've tried standing on my head but there still don't appear to be many (if any) spare paths on the WCML.

So, if we are not to send traffic to Euston where should we send it?

St Pancras - full.
Kings Cross - full.
Marylebone - full.

How about this for thinking differently we could send it to Waterloo, although that's also full it's definitely thinking differently as it's not an intercity station.

 

[6Gman]

But why can't we think differently? You sneer and sniff, but think outside the usual London-based rail establishment. If we stopped calling Euston the one and only destination for all Northern traffic, there could be just as much opening up of opportunities as suggested by HS2 supporters. Why do HS2 people obsess over the old fashioned idea of "Euston is full, let's build a new railway line"? Why not "It might be necessary to look into the capacity of Euston so let's look elsewhere" ?

There are no capacity problems which cannot be sorted by just looking at things from a different angle.

You do realise that much of the "rail establishment" is, and has always been, far from London-based. (In 20 years in train planning I cannot ever remember having to visit London on business. Spoke to staff based there sometimes, but no more than to staff in York, Swindon or Glasgow. Your view of the railway industry appears to be founded more on your prejudices than facts.)

 

[EM2]

MK is within the sphere of influence of London and you know that to be true.

Before I moved here, that was the impression that I had too, but it actually seems to influence MK very little, if at all. People treat 'going up town' as an event, not something that they do at the drop of a hat, like you might from St Albans for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But why can't we think differently? You sneer and sniff, but think outside the usual London-based rail establishment. If we stopped calling Euston the one and only destination for all Northern traffic, there could be just as much opening up of opportunities as suggested by HS2 supporters. Why do HS2 people obsess over the old fashioned idea of "Euston is full, let's build a new railway line"? Why not "It might be necessary to look into the capacity of Euston so let's look elsewhere" ?

The line is full from MKC to Euston. Rebuilding Euston to give it more platforms would be a worthwhile project even if HS2 is canned, but nothing other than 2 more lines between Euston and Hanslope Junction will actually solve the problem. HS2 provides that.

There are no capacity problems which cannot be sorted by just looking at things from a different angle.

Can you please propose a timetable which will achieve this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Before I moved here, that was the impression that I had too, but it actually seems to influence MK very little, if at all. People treat 'going up town' as an event, not something that they do at the drop of a hat, like you might from St Albans for example.

There are a lot of commuters, but by and large MK is a relatively self-contained place as far as the locals go. It has most of what they'd want, so they tend to stay around other than, as you say, special occasions.

It's London influenced in the sense of why it's been more of a success than other New Towns due to inward investment and high wages, but in the sense of feeling like London but being outside the M25 it's not at all like, say, Watford.

And yes, that surprised me too - I used to think of it as the point when it wasn't worth going to the buffet for another coffee as you were practically in London. I'm not sure how I managed to tune out the 30-odd miles of rolling Chiltern nothingness in between - Bucks is hugely, hugely more rural than the North West, surprisingly so.

 

[The Ham]

I live somewhere about an hour from London, according to national statistics only 10% of people work the right distance from Home to work in London.

There's a lot of businesses here which are here because they can get their staff to London as needed quickly, but there's a large enough pool of people willing to take on the lower paid jobs (secretary, cleaners, lower paid roles who don't need to go to London, etc.) that is easy to recruit most of the staff you need. Add in lower rents and that your staff pay can be a bit lower and it all adds up to quiet a good deal for business.

As such there's an element of influence, but it's not as big as you may well think. In fact a lot of people heading on the trains towards London are getting off at stations on route rather than going all the way.

 

[ABB125]

Some interesting points raised in this comment on the RTM website. Filling in the Manchester Ship Canal... would this be at all feasible?

 

[6Gman]

How about this for thinking differently we could send it to Waterloo, although that's also full it's definitely thinking differently as it's not an intercity station.

We could send the 2 Scottish trains (chosen because the time penalty would - proportionately - be less) into Waterloo. As now to Birmingham/Nuneaton then Coventry, Leamington, Banbury, Chiltern, straight on at Northolt Jn, then via a new chord - the only new infrastructure needed, saving tens of billions - at Acton Wells, Willesden West London Jn, Mitre Bridge Jn, Clapham Jn, Waterloo !

And - Bingo ! - two Fast Line paths sorted south of Rugby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some people really are up with the fairies, aren't they? Fill in the Ship Canal? Good lord.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We could send the 2 Scottish trains (chosen because the time penalty would - proportionately - be less) into Waterloo. As now to Birmingham/Nuneaton then Coventry, Leamington, Banbury, Chiltern, straight on at Northolt Jn, then via a new chord - the only new infrastructure needed, saving tens of billions - at Acton Wells, Willesden West London Jn, Mitre Bridge Jn, Clapham Jn, Waterloo !

And - Bingo ! - two Fast Line paths sorted south of Rugby.

Er, Waterloo is, er, full.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Can you please propose a timetable which will achieve this?[/QUOTE]

I am reminded of a previous comment about "why not smart timetabling" - Hmmm , sorting out the shambles from PUG2 and the original undeliverable VWC / Railtrack"deal took from about mid 1999 to 2004 for the September launch , further improved by the 2008 High Capacity timetable. All done by supreme experts from all operators and backed by a tightly controlled Steering Group. Not an easy job, I can personally assure you.

Whilst nothing is perfect in life, I and many others who put a chunk of their working lives in planning this timetable process , which from the first day , IMHO , worked incredibly well would be absolutely delighted , nay intrigued to hear of how we went wrong , and how we could have done better.

There is a convenient village hall near Cheddington which could be hired. Please arrange. Look forward to a stimulating and PRACTICAL session.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Some people really are up with the fairies, aren't they? Fill in the Ship Canal? Good lord.

That really is a good one !

 

[ChiefPlanner]

We could send the 2 Scottish trains (chosen because the time penalty would - proportionately - be less) into Waterloo. As now to Birmingham/Nuneaton then Coventry, Leamington, Banbury, Chiltern, straight on at Northolt Jn, then via a new chord - the only new infrastructure needed, saving tens of billions - at Acton Wells, Willesden West London Jn, Mitre Bridge Jn, Clapham Jn, Waterloo !

And - Bingo ! - two Fast Line paths sorted south of Rugby.

Just tell the hard working NLL route signallers to specialise these trains through Acton Wells. (n all my life on the railway , I commend these people , as getting it wrong there could gridlock an awful lot of key routes)

 

[6Gman]

Just tell the hard working NLL route signallers to specialise these trains through Acton Wells. (n all my life on the railway , I commend these people , as getting it wrong there could gridlock an awful lot of key routes)

Ah, but that's the genius of this scheme. If they send it the wrong way at Acton Wells it could go via the NLL, Gospel Oak, Camden Road (crikey, this is taking me back...) and then use the Navarino Road Junction/ Reading Lane Junction link to reach Liverpool Street !

In fact we could free up a further WCML path by introducing a Liverpool Lime Street to London Liverpool Street service !

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Ah, but that's the genius of this scheme. If they send it the wrong way at Acton Wells it could go via the NLL, Gospel Oak, Camden Road (crikey, this is taking me back...) and then use the Navarino Road Junction/ Reading Lane Junction link to reach Liverpool Street !

In fact we could free up a further WCML path by introducing a Liverpool Lime Street to London Liverpool Street service !

What could possibly go wrong?

Not a lot - unless a service stalled or got gapped on the (wonderfully named spur) from Navarino Road Junction , absolutely no issue at any time (though maybe 0400 with no possessions on might be an opportunity for a cracking commercial led "slot") - we career ex railwaymen have just missed so much against crashing logic on those who could do better. I should have gone teaching.

Actually - there is another lost opportunity - use the bi-di from Hackney Wick , reverse a train off the WCML / NLL there and retrace one's steps via the Canonbury and towards Hornsey - reverse again and negotiate a path into Kings Cross. Easy.

Or more radical - taking a leaf from the bucket shop airlines , one could sell off- center destinations like Hertford East as "London" , am sure there are plenty of great routing options for this , which shows what a lemon idea it is going to some gimcrack place like Euston.

 

[6Gman]

Not a lot - unless a service stalled or got gapped on the (wonderfully named spur) from Navarino Road Junction , absolutely no issue at any time (though maybe 0400 with no possessions on might be an opportunity for a cracking commercial led "slot") - we career ex railwaymen have just missed so much against crashing logic on those who could do better. I should have gone teaching.

Actually - there is another lost opportunity - use the bi-di from Hackney Wick , reverse a train off the WCML / NLL there and retrace one's steps via the Canonbury and towards Hornsey - reverse again and negotiate a path into Kings Cross. Easy.

Or more radical - taking a leaf from the bucket shop airlines , one could sell off- center destinations like Hertford East as "London" , am sure there are plenty of great routing options for this , which shows what a lemon idea it is going to some gimcrack place like Euston.

We really do need a "like" button on here.

 

[mmh]

You do realise that much of the "rail establishment" is, and has always been, far from London-based. (In 20 years in train planning I cannot ever remember having to visit London on business. Spoke to staff based there sometimes, but no more than to staff in York, Swindon or Glasgow. Your view of the railway industry appears to be founded more on your prejudices than facts.)

The people who decide what's going to be spent and where are based in London.

 

[6Gman]

The people who decide what's going to be spent and where are based in London.

The seat of government is in London.

Quite difficult for it to be dispersed.

 

[PR1Berske]

The seat of government is in London.

Quite difficult for it to be dispersed.

The people who decide what's going to be spent and where are based in London.

Exactly my point. Rail establishment - London. DfT - London. HS2 - London.

 

[EM2]

Exactly my point. Rail establishment - London. DfT - London. HS2 - London.

Rail establishment? Who are they?

 

[AndrewE]

The seat of government is in London. Quite difficult for it to be dispersed.

It is going to cost us all an absolute fortune (those of us who pay taxes anyway) to pander to "their" convenience trying to rebuild an asbestos-riddled museum piece around them over several decades... They should be relocated across the north (e.g. Leeds and Manchester) while the Houses of Parliament are being refurbished in a much shorter time.
I bet we would see a different approach (and urgency) to rolling stock provision and infrastructure upgrades in "the north" very soon after the move...

 

[Esker-pades]

Exactly my point. Rail establishment - London. DfT - London. HS2 - London.

As many times as you repreat it, I will repeat the same thing back:
HS2 is not just London.

 

[The Ham]

Exactly my point. Rail establishment - London. DfT - London. HS2 - London.

It does appear that the North maybe getting a few more crumbs of investment. Yes I know that £46bn isn't very much and will only provide 6tph taking about 25 minutes between Manchester and Liverpool or Leeds, but we don't want to give them too much as otherwise there's not enough to further improve London. Where we want to spend the mega money of £42bn on Crossrail 2 which will only benefit London and not provide an extra 9tph from Waterloo for services which potentially could reach to Weymouth, Southampton, Salisbury and Portsmouth or even Exeter or Bristol. Which also wouldn't be partly funded through local taxation in London.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hammond-sets-laser-focus-on-improving-productivity-rq0rk75zs

Fixing Britain’s chronic productivity problems will be at the heart of the government’s spending review this year, the chancellor pledged yesterday as he signalled plans to approve the £39 billion Northern Powerhouse Rail project.

Philip Hammond has told government departments to prepare submissions for a three-year spending review on day-to-day budgets and five years for capital investment. The final review, mapping out spending from next year, is expected to be published in late summer or in the autumn, assuming that a Brexit deal is agreed.

P.S. my [SARCASM] [/SARCASM] don't appear to be working, can someone help?

 

[Ianno87]

MK is within the sphere of influence of London and you know that to be true.

Preston is in the sphere of influence of London. Just look at the people boarding Pendolinos there to reach meetings in London each morning.

Some people really are up with the fairies, aren't they? Fill in the Ship Canal? Good lord.

I...I...don't even know where to start with that one. The ecological catastrophe it would be, perhaps?

The people who decide what's going to be spent and where are based in London.

And here they are, clienting a major scheme to provide rail infrastructure to and within the north of England - HS2. How dare they.