• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
24 Jun 2014
Messages
442
Location
Derby
Disappointing really. I cannot believe that two trains per hour are not required between Lincoln and Nottingham with one continuing towards Derby (maybe to Crewe) and a second to Leicester.

The information provided about train services is incomplete; if you go to the interactive maps on the DfT website, reference is made to a second train each hour between Nottingham and Newark, but the Leicester - Nottingham and Matlock - Nottingham services are shown just as those, without any extensions eastwards. Consequently, it is quite possible that the present service pattern will be retained, the major difference being that the Leicester - Lincoln service will be extended to Grimsby/Cleethorpes.

However, as mentioned elsewhere the information published thus far is silent with regard to enhanced cross-Nottingham services, a key requirement of the ITT; therefore, it's quite possible that the long-gone Crewe - Cleethorpes will be re-established by amalgamating the Crewe - Nottingham and Nottingham - Grimsby/Cleethorpes services, and the Leicester - Nottingham extended to Newark to maintain much of the existing connectivity in the Leicester - Lincoln corridor.

Amalgamation of the Nottingham - Grimsby/Cleethorpes with the Nottingham - Crewe service would be good PR for Abellio; over the years, there have been interviews with Newark people on regional tv news programmes regarding poor rail connections westward from that town, and better interchange facilities at Derby rather than Nottingham will provide better rail connections to Birmingham/south west England, at Stoke for Manchester, and at Crewe for the north west. Some of these would also be beneficial for passengers travelling to/from Lincoln (I guess via Sheffield is better for Lincoln - Manchester ones).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
Edit: To add further to the intrigue, the Daily Telegraph is now reporting that Arriva submitted a non-compliant bid as well- meaning Abellio won by default!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...squalified-rail-franchise-bids-pensions-risk/
From some of the comments, there's a suggestion that the Arriva bid was also non-compliant; anyone know if this is correct?
If this really is the case, I'm kind of surprised they didn't kick this one into the long grass with a direct award, like they did with CrossCountry! Must be a judicial review in it somewhere, if they awarded a competitive bid to one company as the only compliant bidder?! Certainly that would appear to strengthen any legal case Stagecoach might make, but it's interesting that we've not heard any noises from Arriva about this.
 

whhistle

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
What is the point of having a competition from the private sector if we give it to someone by default!
Because that's the way the cookie crumbles?
If companies in the competition didn't submit a bid that was in agreement with the competition rules, why shouldn't the one company that did (submit a bid within the compeition rules) not win?
 

whhistle

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
Actually Siemens have the Desiro Verve, which does have the option of a Bi-mode, which looks very similar to the hydrogen fuel cell system proposed by EMR.

But where would a new depot be built?
Not a bad looking unit.

It's a shame there isn't more space around the Wigston curve as that could've been a good place for a depot as by the looks of our friend Google, there's already a bit of industry/factories around there and all trains on thje London route would pass it.
 

superalbs

Verified Rep - Superalbs Travels
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,863
Location
Kraków
Not a bad looking unit.

It's a shame there isn't more space around the Wigston curve as that could've been a good place for a depot as by the looks of our friend Google, there's already a bit of industry/factories around there and all trains on thje London route would pass it.
That looks like a Siemens Mireo as found on the continent, would be nice to get something like that, they look lovely.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
That looks like a Siemens Mireo as found on the continent, would be nice to get something like that, they look lovely.
Fortunately aesthetics are very low down the priority list, quite rightfully so if you ask me! I'd rather have an ugly train if it's good in every other respect.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
8,424
Location
UK
Fortunately aesthetics are very low down the priority list, quite rightfully so if you ask me! I'd rather have an ugly train if it's good in every other respect.

Siemens trains are of a very high quality, they're in another league compared to Bombardier and Hitachi!
I might be a bit biased, since my favourite train is a Siemens product! :lol:
 

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
Always amuses me to read comments like this. There's allegedly small demand into Bedford from the North (including the major cities in the East Midlands and South Yorkshire) but raise the subject of East-West Rail and people go on about the massive potential demand from the relatively small centres to the East and West justifying huge investment.

I agree with you - I can see the benefit of EWR linking Reading and Oxford to MK. I'm not so convinced about the section eastwards from there - and if you look over my various posts you'll see that.

The problem is there's a number of posters around here who think Bedford in particular should have a service which is far in excess of what it needs or warrants.

If you look at the WCML or ECML in the first 70 or so miles there are two connection points with 'long distance' services - in the case of the first Watford Junc and Milton Keynes, in the case of the latter Stevenage and Peterborough - yet the MML has Luton (x2), Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. If the Corby's are going to be 2 tph stopping at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton and St P - then my view is that the 2 connections the MML should have onto Leicester bound services are, logically, one of the Luton stations (because it is a large place and has the airport) and Kettering (because that's the junction point with the Corby's). Problem is everytime that gets floated you have no shortage of people insisting Bedford should keep its "Inter City" services which it doesn't warrant.
 

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
Agreed. Bedford will soon be a huge nucleus of interchange and journey opportunities and one must assume it will need to be re-modelled. Maybe if they can be bothered to have a dedicated two platforms for 'Intercity' we will finally have a sensible situation involving more Bedford calls.

Except that's rubbish - if you're travelling from Leicester or north on the MML to any of the following destinations (or vice versa) there are already better options than changing at Bedford will offer IF EWR ever gets completed:

Leicester - MK: 1 change at Nuneaton - no benefit to travelling via Bedford.
Leicester - Peterborough - already direct, no point in worrying about Sandy or St Neots - they have a decent service to / from Peterborough.
Leicester - Cambridge - 1 change at Peterborough.
Leicester - Oxford - 1 change at Birmingham

This whole "EWR" will lead to loads of interchanges at Bedford is hogwash - the main gain of EWR is linking Reading / Oxford with MK and potentially linking Oxford with Cambridge. Anything else is pretty much incidental.
 

DanTrain

Member
Joined
9 Jul 2017
Messages
753
Location
Sheffield
Except that's rubbish - if you're travelling from Leicester or north on the MML to any of the following destinations (or vice versa) there are already better options than changing at Bedford will offer IF EWR ever gets completed:

Leicester - MK: 1 change at Nuneaton - no benefit to travelling via Bedford.
Leicester - Peterborough - already direct, no point in worrying about Sandy or St Neots - they have a decent service to / from Peterborough.
Leicester - Cambridge - 1 change at Peterborough.
Leicester - Oxford - 1 change at Birmingham

This whole "EWR" will lead to loads of interchanges at Bedford is hogwash - the main gain of EWR is linking Reading / Oxford with MK and potentially linking Oxford with Cambridge. Anything else is pretty much incidental.
Not quite true, it could offer quicker journeys from Sheffield/Nottingham/Derby to Oxford, MK and Cambridge, all three are currently a bit of a pain, particuarly Oxford (long and tortuos journey via Birmingam) and Cambridge (change Leicester or Ely, soon to be only Leicester). Whilst not everyone will use this route, some competitive pricing/journey times could see a reasonable number of changes at Bedford. Equally if EMR don't bother stopping, no-one will use it so...
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,516
If this really is the case, I'm kind of surprised they didn't kick this one into the long grass with a direct award, like they did with CrossCountry! .
Me too,, it also in my opinion increases the likelihood that the Williams review recommendations will simply be kicked into the long grass instead, due to costs & complexities of altering existing deals and govt being tied up with Brexit etc .
 
Last edited:

InTheEastMids

Established Member
Joined
31 Jan 2016
Messages
1,408
Not quite true, it could offer quicker journeys from Sheffield/Nottingham/Derby to Oxford, MK and Cambridge, all three are currently a bit of a pain, particuarly Oxford (long and tortuos journey via Birmingam) and Cambridge (change Leicester or Ely, soon to be only Leicester). Whilst not everyone will use this route, some competitive pricing/journey times could see a reasonable number of changes at Bedford. Equally if EMR don't bother stopping, no-one will use it so...

Can I test your opinion with some facts, please?

Bedford to Oxford will be 1h 6 according to DfT.
Nottingham to Bedford is 1h 10 mins
This gives Nottingham to Oxford as maybe 2h 30 including a single change at Bedford
Nottingham to Oxford today is 2h 33 with one change at Derby

Derby to Bedford is 1h 18, so a reasonable EWR time to Oxford is maybe 2h 35, changing Leicester & Bedford
Derby to Oxford today is 1h 47 mins direct on XC

Sheffield to Bedford is 1h 53, so a reasonable EWR time to Oxford is maybe 3h 15, changing Leicester & Bedford
Sheffield to Oxford today is 2h 16 mins direct on XC

So I think what you're arguing for is re-writing the EM high-speed timetable with extra stops at Bedford, slowing down the journey to London - which is why most people are on an EMT service south of Leicester, in order, to help a small number of passengers who are equally or better served going by other routes.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,062
Location
Reston City Centre
A few more thoughts on the new franchise:

Doncaster – Lincoln is probably the lightest use line that EMT currently operate – I’ve never experienced any capacity problems on it – never heard of any capacity problems on it (but have had to stand on a few other EMT services…).

The fact that it’ll be upgraded from a single 153 to (at least) a two coach “new” train should be more than enough improvement for this lightly loaded route, but instead they are throwing additional resource at it so that it runs hourly.

Strange priorities, but similar in a way to the Northern franchise, where the focus was on improvements to pretty rural routes like Skipton – Lancaster or the East Yorkshire coast, rather than busy commuter lines into Manchester/ Leeds/ Sheffield. The increase to Doncaster – Lincoln feels more like “we must be seen to thrown a bone to some of the fringe stakeholders” rather than solving any of the bigger issues.

Nottingham – Grimsby is a welcome improvement (though a spare Northern unit would permit the Doncaster – Scunthorpe service to be extended through to Grimsby, doubling the service to the ECML at Donny for longer distance links – now that Doncaster – Scunthorpe is a stand-alone service it may fit better under EMR, could even interwork with the Lincoln – Doncaster service).

The problem with the Grimsby service is that Nottingham has a clear imbalance of services terminating from the west, but one of the few services from the east (currently ex Lincoln for most of the day) is due to terminate at Nottingham, which means even more services from the west will terminate here (including the new Crewe service, the truncated bit of the current Leicester stopper and the truncated Liverpool service which may require 6x23m worth of platform to layover at).

But you probably wouldn’t want to extend the Grimsby service much further west of Nottingham as you’d hit reliability over the flat junction at Newark (if the service is longer distance). Plus, if you want to improve longer distance links from Grimsby, but also provide a broadly half hourly service from Lincoln to Newark (bi hourly shuttle to Northgate, bi-hourly LNER service to London, hourly Grimsby to Nottingham) then that means some long waits at Lincoln for services to the ECML at Northgate. Can’t please everyone with clockface timetables though, and I think that this looks like a reasonable compromise.

Platform space at Nottingham is going to struggle though. At first glance it looks like ten services per hour terminating from the west (including the long ones ex London and hopefully long ones ex Liverpool too!), two services per hour terminating from the east (ex Grimsby and ex Skegness) and only two through trains per hour (the Norwich – Derby and presumably the Newark – Matlock). Note that I'm including the Northern/XC services here, i.e. total number of services terminating at Nottingham, not just restricting it to EMR.

I’ve not seen confirmation that Matlock – Newark is continuing but presumably *something* will continue to run a cross-Nottingham service to terminate at Newark Castle; maybe that’s still to be arranged which service once diagrams etc can be worked – maybe even a situation where the Newark Castle service comes *from* one destination but runs *to* a different one, e.g. Matlock – Nottingham - Newark – Nottingham - Leicester – Nottingham – Matlock?).

Must be a new thread in there (inspired by Nottingham) – the largest disparity between “terminating” and “through” trains per hour (at a station that has both services)?
 

DanTrain

Member
Joined
9 Jul 2017
Messages
753
Location
Sheffield
Can I test your opinion with some facts, please?
Don't do that...my crayons might wash out ;)

Bedford to Oxford will be 1h 6 according to DfT.
Nottingham to Bedford is 1h 10 mins
This gives Nottingham to Oxford as maybe 2h 30 including a single change at Bedford
Nottingham to Oxford today is 2h 33 with one change at Derby

Derby to Bedford is 1h 18, so a reasonable EWR time to Oxford is maybe 2h 35, changing Leicester & Bedford
Derby to Oxford today is 1h 47 mins direct on XC

Sheffield to Bedford is 1h 53, so a reasonable EWR time to Oxford is maybe 3h 15, changing Leicester & Bedford
Sheffield to Oxford today is 2h 16 mins direct on XC

So I think what you're arguing for is re-writing the EM high-speed timetable with extra stops at Bedford, slowing down the journey to London - which is why most people are on an EMT service south of Leicester, in order, to help a small number of passengers who are equally or better served going by other routes.

Fair point, I hadn't realised Bedford to Oxford would take quite so long! By the looks of it it's still worth keeping the Nottingham stops though, if just to relieve pressure on the hopelessly overcrowded XC network.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Except that's rubbish - if you're travelling from Leicester or north on the MML to any of the following destinations (or vice versa) there are already better options than changing at Bedford will offer IF EWR ever gets completed:

Leicester - Cambridge - 1 change at Peterborough.

Umm why would you change at Peterborough if you're travelling from Leicester to Cambridge?

The reason I ask is because the only service at the moment which does that route actually serves Cambridge direct from Leicester anyway as it's the Birmingham to Stansted Airport service so why would you even bother considering changing at Peterborough?

Your post simply makes no sense at all, IF you said Leicester to Cambridge/Ipswich/Norwich I would have said change at Peterborough/Ely but you didn't.
 

InTheEastMids

Established Member
Joined
31 Jan 2016
Messages
1,408
Fair point, I hadn't realised Bedford to Oxford would take quite so long! By the looks of it it's still worth keeping the Nottingham stops though, if just to relieve pressure on the hopelessly overcrowded XC network.

Actually I was surprised when I went to check.
Agree about the Notts XC services, a friend commutes to Birmingham about 3x each week. The 170s are tired inside, dirty, and she never gets a seat on the way home before Tamworth. Leics-Birmingham is equally bad, seen people left behind at various stations. Pretty disgraceful tbh but more and better carriages are the answer imo.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,433
Location
Yorks
A few more thoughts on the new franchise:

Doncaster – Lincoln is probably the lightest use line that EMT currently operate – I’ve never experienced any capacity problems on it – never heard of any capacity problems on it (but have had to stand on a few other EMT services…).

The fact that it’ll be upgraded from a single 153 to (at least) a two coach “new” train should be more than enough improvement for this lightly loaded route, but instead they are throwing additional resource at it so that it runs hourly.

Strange priorities, but similar in a way to the Northern franchise, where the focus was on improvements to pretty rural routes like Skipton – Lancaster or the East Yorkshire coast, rather than busy commuter lines into Manchester/ Leeds/ Sheffield. The increase to Doncaster – Lincoln feels more like “we must be seen to thrown a bone to some of the fringe stakeholders” rather than solving any of the bigger issues.

Personally, I would have thought that upgrading to a useful frequency would be the more useful and beneficial of those changes - something which, any other time could have been done with 153's. Obviously other factors mean that another unit is required at the same time.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,930
I reckon the Lincolnshire routes with half decent trains and a useful service frequency will take off. The suppressed demand is huge - the roads are awful. Doncaster to Lincoln is seen as a potential connection link I think. Running some direct summer Skegness services would take the pressure off Grantham too (this has been assessed in the past by EMT but sadly fell down on lack of units).
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
2,043
I reckon the Lincolnshire routes with half decent trains and a useful service frequency will take off. The suppressed demand is huge - the roads are awful. Doncaster to Lincoln is seen as a potential connection link I think. Running some direct summer Skegness services would take the pressure off Grantham too (this has been assessed in the past by EMT but sadly fell down on lack of units).

Agreed with some of this but there will still be room for improvement.

The Peterborough - Sleaford - Spalding route going hourly 0700 to 2200 and being 2 carriages instead of single 153s should see healthy growth. There's also been significant house building around Sleaford and Spalding in recent years. The lack of a Sunday service is a surprising omission though given there's new Sunday services on the Lincoln - Doncaster and Lincoln - Grimsby routes. Hopefully addressed at some point given that there will be new Sunday services on other Lincolnshire routes.

The Lincoln - Grimsby route will still be only every two hours which won't really attract people to it. An hourly service is required to be attractive to new users.

Nottingham - Lincoln will still be hourly as it is constrained by the flat crossing at Newark. It remains to be seen whether the slow journey times will be speeded up by transferring the Hykeham, Collingham and Swinderby stops to the Newark North Gate - Lincoln service.

The Nottingham - Skegness route sees an extra morning/evening service to/from Boston, presumably filling the existing gaps at 0650 ex Boston and 1945 ex Nottingham. I think there's and an extra peak Nottingham - Grantham and vv service but not sure without checking. One wonders whether the current ad hoc calls at local stations being Grantham and Nottingham will be replaced with a regular calling pattern. There's nothing mentioned about the summer services on this route or whether the new bimode rolling stock will be used during summer weekends to stregthen the services like the HSTs are today. Again the all day Sunday service is a welcome long over due addition.

On the traincrew side Lincoln and Boston will probably need more resources. Whether that means extra staff or the work rejigging so that Nottingham gains work when it loses the Liverpool route remains to be seen.
 
Last edited:

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,930
Lincoln Grimsby will be hourly running through from Nottingham with limited extensions to Cleethorpes.
 

kevjs

Member
Joined
4 Sep 2013
Messages
470
Hey so long as the operated stations have more information! Nottingham when I was there, there was very limited train information. I would assume the Grimsby-Nottingham service goes ahead still?
The Fire at Nottingham station took the information systems out for some time. The station as a while has only just got back to normal from a passenger perspective in the last week or so (the lifts which were due to replacement being tacked onto the fire damage repair work being the last bits).
 

londonmidland

Established Member
Joined
22 Dec 2009
Messages
2,378
Location
Leicester
The Fire at Nottingham station took the information systems out for some time. The station as a while has only just got back to normal from a passenger perspective in the last week or so (the lifts which were due to replacement being tacked onto the fire damage repair work being the last bits).

The P.A system is still partially broken with it being far too quiet as a result of, what I assume, it being underpowered and/or not fully connected. The are also no working speakers on platform 7 as well as other parts of the station.

I don’t know why it is taking so long to repair.
 

SeanM1997

Member
Joined
2 Feb 2016
Messages
577
Does anybody know when the changes to the Crewe services will happen? The DfT website doesn't specify a date.

Also, I presume the Crewe line will have an hourly all station excluding Peatree service (about 3 per day) between Crewe and Nottingham. Will this terminate at Nottingham or could this be extended to Grimsby or Norwich due to lack of platform capacity at Nottingham?

Finally, does anybody know what the rolling stock on the line will be - I presume whatever the stock is, it will have at least 2 carriages at all times of the day
 

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
3,694
Does anybody know when the changes to the Crewe services will happen? The DfT website doesn't specify a date.

Also, I presume the Crewe line will have an hourly all station excluding Peatree service (about 3 per day) between Crewe and Nottingham. Will this terminate at Nottingham or could this be extended to Grimsby or Norwich due to lack of platform capacity at Nottingham?

Finally, does anybody know what the rolling stock on the line will be - I presume whatever the stock is, it will have at least 2 carriages at all times of the day
Most likely when the Liverpool to Norwich splits. The 153s will need to be replaced soon due to PRM requirements from 2020.
 

High Dyke

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2013
Messages
5,023
Location
Yellabelly Country
A few more thoughts on the new franchise:

Doncaster – Lincoln is probably the lightest use line that EMT currently operate – I’ve never experienced any capacity problems on it – never heard of any capacity problems on it (but have had to stand on a few other EMT services…).
You may find that honour goes to the route/from Peterborough via Stamford. It only sees 3 EMT services a day between Stamford and Peterborough (not Saturdays or Sundays).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top