Geezertronic
Established Member
I believe an MP had brought it up with Mr Speaker during one of the most recent debates as I am sure I had heard the actual clip of it on the news but I cannot remember what MP it was that pointed it out
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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
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I believe an MP had brought it up with Mr Speaker during one of the most recent debates as I am sure I had heard the actual clip of it on the news but I cannot remember what MP it was that pointed it out
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R
RailUK Forums
It was brought up almost immediately after the no-deal vote when it was announced that the extension vote would be dependent on ministers approving May's deal. May and Leadsom then spent the next half hour laughing and shaking their heads at MPs who were asking how she could bring back the same deal again. Leadsom went on record saying that the delay way dependent on "a" deal rather than "the" deal, but then the text of the motion was read out (which did state "the" deal) so they went on to the not answering questions routine instead. It was straight out of yes minister!
They are blaming the eu for a rule created in 1604. Damn that eu inventing a tardis before the BBC existed, going back in time, setting up the eu and forcing rules upon the English.
https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/1107687206045536258?s=19
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The lack of a motion to amend must now make it impossible to table amendments to it, which is interesting as several important ones were expected to be put forward this week. Presumably however it means May has to ask for a long extension, which is what she said she would do if the deal wasn't agreed this week.
Despite some grumbling I think the EU will grant a year or so's extension but refuse any further negotiations unless there's a change to the UK's red lines, which could arise from a new government or if May or her successor backs down, or conceivably from some sort of multi-choice referendum. If they agree no extension or only a short one, or if nothing has changed as the end of the extension approaches, then the only alternatives for the UK are to withdraw A50 or go into no-deal.
If looking for other options, now may be the time to re-visit "Barner's staircase", which was described as long ago as 2017 and gives a pretty good idea of what the EU might accept.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...nier-maps-out-uks-canadian-path-idUKKBN1ED23R
This is of course made more complicated by the backstop and more particularly the UK objections to it.
Despite some grumbling I think the EU will grant a year or so's extension but refuse any further negotiations unless there's a change to the UK's red lines, which could arise from a new government or if May or her successor backs down, or conceivably from some sort of multi-choice referendum. If they agree no extension or only a short one, or if nothing has changed as the end of the extension approaches, then the only alternatives for the UK are to withdraw A50 or go into no-deal.
If looking for other options, now may be the time to re-visit "Barner's staircase", which was described as long ago as 2017 and gives a pretty good idea of what the EU might accept.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...nier-maps-out-uks-canadian-path-idUKKBN1ED23R
This is of course made more complicated by the backstop and more particularly the UK objections to it.
If its as popular as the gammonball run march no one will notice.
Nobody is paying any attention any more.
Indeed, such information is easily available & frankly you'd think something that would have been checked by organisers given that when the bridge is open there is a toll.....
Well that would be one way to guarantee Farage's attendance.....
On a serious note, it is still very disturbing that some leave supporters are still just ignoring facts & trying to whip up misunderstandings and/or lies to support their "cause". I suspect most of us were unaware of the 1604 ruling, but again those actively working on the Brexit plan should have been. Ever since Cameron formally announced the referendum, there has just been a continuous stream of bull-you-know-what from all sides, who have seemingly been engaged in trying to avoid having a sensible and adult debate on what is the most important political and economic issue of our time.
It is nothing short of shocking, if not entirely unsurprising that we are less than two weeks away from the expected date of leaving & this mess rages on. Quite honestly the government cannot be trusted to continue, they need to call a pause & ask the EU for an extension of at least 6 months so that a General Election can be called. This was never my preferred option, its likely to cause some serious turmoil but compared to the mess that is Brexit it is nothing. Parties, all parties will have to present their position on how to take Brexit forward, with clear strategies on what their end goals would be (i.e. Renegotiate, press for a EEA style deal, no deal scenario or cancel Brexit) so that voters can at least make a choice on what the parties options are. Ideally this would be done with an AV referendum, but quite honestly I can't see anyone agreeing on the options and the wording, which is a vital facet of a referendum. So an GE it has to be, otherwise chaos will reign.
In the meantime, if someone could quickly invent a time machine to go forward a couple of days and get those lucky six lottery numbers, I promise when I set up my new island republic somewhere I'll give you a key role in my dictators..., umm, ermm, new administration....
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Will a general election fix anything? No one seems to have a clue what they are doing, no one has a plan ( apart from the PM which is to present the same plan over and over again with the words slightly changed) spivs and chancers are given free reign by the media to spout any old horlicks and far too many people are living in a fantasy world taken in by snake oil salesmen. The quality and intelligence of debate is zero and we seem to be being pushed over a cliff by angry and in many cases thick duffers trying to return to some mythical 1950's utopia!
We need sensible, mature debate, compromise and a plan not unicorns and rainbows and belief.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And I don't think that can ever happen in our adversarial Parliament. We need big, big changes.
One thing I didn't know was the case is that there is clearly a need to allow for a "you have to choose one or actively abstain" system of voting in Parliament for certain cases. It seems they can only vote on ayes and noes, which works for most things where the status quo is an option (e.g. bringing in any given new law), but doesn't work for Brexit where there was and still is a need to choose an option with no status quo option, i.e. May's deal, no deal or remain. We seem to have got to an impasse where no option will gain a majority, and so the existing voting system doesn't handle such cases.
This is a really good point and usually isn't an issue but it cause some changes to parlementary procedures to bring it kicking and screaming into the 1700's
Will it fix anything? Truthfully I honestly don't know, but the current Parliament has been all but rendered useless, its painted itself into a corner & we risk falling out of the EU with no deal, no plan, no idea. At least asking for an extension of A50 on the premise that we need to try to re-form a government that doesn't have to rely on some fringe party with some very specific demands, means we can rethink the strategy on how we leave, preferably with some kind of EEA deal which I'm sure the EU would find more palatable.
Will it happen? Truthfully I don't know, but we are fast running of options. I fear for the future of this country as a result of all this ridiculous nonsense. And being selfish for a moment don't fancy all the extra hassle if we will face travelling into the EU as I've already got trips to Spain & Austria booked, and don't give two hoots what colour my passport is! Its all a nightmare!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
the problem is the same people will be returned to parliament. They will have the same views and they will approach negotiations in the same immature and unrealistic fashion. Even with Corbs in charge things would be no different. We would just have a slightly different flavour of fantasy.
I am almost of a view that we should simply push the whole thing into a no deal situation and get on with it. The problem is that those responsible and accountable for this mess will never be held to account and those who suffer will be he ones least able to ride out such a situation.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
With neither big party having a significant lead in the polls, an election could well just return something very similar to the current Parliament, and if Labour continues to blow hot and cold most voters will be very unclear what their mainifesto actually says on Brexit. It's also clouded by the people who wouldn't vote for Corbyn for unrelated reasons. The 2017 election didn't focus on Brexit at all due to Labour not really being interested, but if that result said anything the reduction in the Tory majority was a public thumbs-down to May's red lines announced a few months earlier. But did they take any notice?
Sorry, it's got to be a referendum on a specific question if it's to resolve anything. I hear what people say about stirring up unrest, but if May's deal were to be agreed tomorrow (Bercow notwithstanding) does anyone think the various Brexit factions who haven't got exactly what they wanted will put up and shut up? That becomes even harder to believe in the likely event of short-term disruption or long-term damage to the economy, when the search for blame starts.
Sorry, it's got to be a referendum on a specific question if it's to resolve anything. I hear what people say about stirring up unrest, but if May's deal were to be agreed tomorrow (Bercow notwithstanding) does anyone think the various Brexit factions who haven't got exactly what they wanted will put up and shut up? That becomes even harder to believe in the likely event of short-term disruption or long-term damage to the economy, when the search for blame starts.
Maybe, its true it might not return much in the way of difference (except maybe the Tories would be less keen to form another coalition with the DUP). But it might focus party minds a bit & force them to offer their full strategies, something that we simply haven't had thus far. As I said another referendum would be my preferred option, but I fear this would in itself lead to a political bunfight over the wording of any options offered, remembering that though the result would not be legally binding the wording kind of is.
So I just don't see any options left other than no deal, which frankly isn't an option we should even be considering even in these circumstances. Well I say there aren't any options left, the A50 legislation could always be repealed.....
d9009alycidon
Member
Am I the only one hear that wonders what Parliament would have been doing if the referendum had gone the other way? With so much time being devoted to these debates, votes and procedural issues surely there is a lot of important business that is not being given proper scrutiny
You’re not the only one.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Not just parliament, but the whole Government. We have a health service arguably in crisis, with huge waiting lists even just to see a GP. Schools in a situation where teachers are sometimes having to buy essential materials for their pupils out of their own pocket. So many people forced to turn to food banks to survive. The Police appear to be desperately short of resources to fight crime. The Mirror reports today about women on benefits turning to prostitution because - thanks to the Universal Credit issues - it's the only way they can survive. Report surfacing today that the UK could have water shortages within 25 years because of climate change and increasing demand. And ever since the Brexit referendum, the Government has basically had almost no bandwidth to deal with these issues because of all the time taken up with Brexit fantasies. And of course, if Brexit does go ahead, that situation is likely to continue for a good few more years as we try to sort out the economic and legislative mess that will ensue.
(Although, to be fair, the cynic in me does think that - it's a Tory Government - so it's questionable whether it would have done much useful about all these things anyway
)
Strat-tastic
Established Member
d9009alycidon
Member
Not just parliament, but the whole Government. We have a health service arguably in crisis, with huge waiting lists even just to see a GP. Schools in a situation where teachers are sometimes having to buy essential materials for their pupils out of their own pocket. So many people forced to turn to food banks to survive. The Police appear to be desperately short of resources to fight crime. The Mirror reports today about women on benefits turning to prostitution because - thanks to the Universal Credit issues - it's the only way they can survive. Report surfacing today that the UK could have water shortages within 25 years because of climate change and increasing demand. And ever since the Brexit referendum, the Government has basically had almost no bandwidth to deal with these issues because of all the time taken up with Brexit fantasies. And of course, if Brexit does go ahead, that situation is likely to continue for a good few more years as we try to sort out the economic and legislative mess that will ensue.
(Although, to be fair, the cynic in me does think that - it's a Tory Government - so it's questionable whether it would have done much useful about all these things anyway
Can I correct you there - that report is specifically about England, the possibility that Scotland will ever be short of water is hilarious given that it rains just about every day, just don't tell Nicola or she will offer to build pipelines taking the water south with meters installed at the border
Howardh
Established Member
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It's not a bad idea, water might be more valuable than oil in the future! Must be pointed out in Scotland's favour is that it's eastern coast is one of Britain's driest parts.Can I correct you there - that report is specifically about England, the possibility that Scotland will ever be short of water is hilarious given that it rains just about every day, just don't tell Nicola or she will offer to build pipelines taking the water south with meters installed at the border
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/pub/da.../8110_1km/RainDays02_Average_1981-2010_17.gif shows around the Moray Firth has as many/few (!) days of significant rain as much of eastern England. Which is probable where Grayling would pipe water from.
Of course, the west is a different matter. The midges love the rain, so that's OK then.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Nobody really knows of course. Most people probably expected 2017 to clarify things but it really didn't.
It also strikes me that even if the 2017 election hadn't happened, we might still be in the same pickle today. Presumably the deal would include controls between Britain and NI instead of the backstop arrangement, but would enough Tories have been opposed to that (along with those opposed to the deal for other reasons) to override a majority of 30 or so?
Howardh
Established Member
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There's supposed to be a letter on the way from No10 to Brussels, but it's top secret. I reckon it says "Dear Tusky my old pal, SOS. Not the foggiest old chap. Love, the United Jokedom.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
"Dear EU,
We have found ourselves unable to govern our country. Please find herewith withdrawal of Article 50 and please accept this as a request for the EU to take over all national Governmental functions in the UK.
Best regards,
Theresa"
"Dear EU,
We have found ourselves unable to govern our country. Please find herewith withdrawal of Article 50 and please accept this as a request for the EU to take over all national Governmental functions in the UK.
Best regards,
Theresa"
nlogax
Established Member
There isn't enough popcorn in the world for watching this mess. I've been in the US for three weeks now and everyone I've spoken to here is utterly confused. I've had to reassure them that it's also the case for we Brits too - more so as we get so many updates we often can't see the wood for the trees.
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