A proper Rolling stock replacement & cascade plan

[Waverley125]

is something that the UK railways are severely lacking. Northern has the biggest growth & worst overcrowding of any franchise, but has no new stock, or any on order. In the south west there have been no new trains for years. How can we upgrade rolling stock across the nation? well.

with MML & GWML electrification this obviously releases trains. HSTs to probable retirement and 22xs to XC. The 7 car sets would give much better capacity on these services, and allow Voyagers to be used elsewhere, such as Liverpool-Norwich, or again, on long-distance regional services (e.g. TPE)

New Trains in london free up the 319s to go North onto the Manchester-Liverpool route, while some 185s are released from Manchester-Glasgow services, as Virgin take these over. This frees up pacers to retirement (and not a moment too soon).

This leaves other routes e.g. Cross Country, TransPennine, Scotland open. Either they too will be electrified, or new diesel services must be implemented.

My preference is for wiring most of the lines around the West Riding (Sheffield-Leeds/Doncaster, Leeds-Manchester-York, Leeds-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield, Leeds-Wakefield-Barsnley-Sheffield) and Southern/Eastern Scotland (Edinburgh-Aberdeen, Edinburgh-Stirling-Perth, Glasgow-Dundee) to replace DMUs and reduce the number of new DMUs that need to be built.

Scottish wiring also frees up a large number of healthy Turbostars & 158/9s which can then be cascaded elsewhere. In particular need is the South West, with Most of the new trains being targeted here, to replace clapped-out pacers and 150s in the Bristol, South Wales & Devon areas.

The rest of the cascading units would go to ATW to replace pacers & 15xs across the principality. Electrification through to Swansea will have removed some DMUs, and urban electrification around Cardiff should be seriously considered.

This leaves some units in the South West, Wales, Nothern England and East Midlands to be replaced.

 

[ukrob]

If only it was that simple!

 

[TrainBrain185]

Regarding this topic. Imagine if all the "Pacer Haters" had their way too?

 

[poshbakerloo]

Regarding this topic. Imagine if all the "Pacer Haters" had their way too?

scrap the lot! urg.

replace em with 150/156s and then get some nice new DMUs in place of them

Shame that won't happen! lol

 

[yorksrob]

Regarding this topic. Imagine if all the "Pacer Haters" had their way too?

As a fully fledged "Pacer Hater" (because they are rubbish bus bodies bolted on to coal waggons - lest we forget why we hate them so much (unlikely for anyone who travells on them regularly!)). I would just like to see the rolling stock programme designed to displace them to the cutters torch where they belong before anything else. There is not anything else on the network currently which deserves to go to knackers yard before them.

 

[Lampshade]

Aha, "Pacer Hater", or "142 Hater"?

While the latter is certainly the most vile little griefbox on the rail network, 144s are actually pretty good.

 

[yorksrob]

Aha, "Pacer Hater", or "142 Hater"?

While the latter is certainly the most vile little griefbox on the rail network, 144s are actually pretty good.

How are the 144's better ? (unless they're the ones with an extra carriage - in which case anything would be better with an extra carriage) .

 

[Lampshade]

How are the 144's better ? (unless they're the ones with an extra carriage - in which case anything would be better with an extra carriage) .

The WYPTE sponsored ones have been fitted with proper seats so offer at least some degree of comfort; I'd rather travel on 144 than a 150 anyday. The 142s on the other hand are dreadful and should be cascaded into the nearest scrapyard.

 

[Oswyntail]

To have a proper rolling stock cascade programme, you need a national overview. And you need national recognition that the needs in TOC "A" are greater than the needs in TOC "F". With privatisation done the way it is, the only sensible way to handle stock replacement is to allow any TOC to buy what it feels it wants, without DfT control.

 

[poshbakerloo]

While the latter is certainly the most vile little griefbox on the rail network, 144s are actually pretty good.

The refurbished 144s are the best pacer unites...but they are still crap! lol.
The slightest little curve in the rail, and thing goes a' rockin'

 

[generalvegitable]

I think we should cascade the pacers to a line in London, see what they think of them, I suggest the Docklands Light Railway, then slowly replace all the new stock in London with pacers and crap boxes to replace their shiny new units then bring those to where they are needed most, up north where the capacity is needed not in London where there are 12 car trains every 2 seconds on the less busy routes!

 

[delt1c]

I think we should cascade the pacers to a line in London, see what they think of them, I suggest the Docklands Light Railway, then slowly replace all the new stock in London with pacers and crap boxes to replace their shiny new units then bring those to where they are needed most, up north where the capacity is needed not in London where there are 12 car trains every 2 seconds on the less busy routes!

[/I]

What a load of c**p. I commute daily in london, 2 trains an hour to liverpool St formed soley of 315's with origonal low back seating and 317/5 with origonal seats interspersed with 317/6's now getting very thread bare.
Where do you get this fairytail view that in the south east we all have shiny new trains running at very close headways?
Here in the South east we have 313's from mid 70's, 150/1's, 455's, 315's and 317's all now past the 20 year old mark so before making postings check the facts please.
Added to which we in the south east on average pay higher fares for comparable journeys

 

[MCR247]

[/I]

What a load of c**p. I commute daily in london, 2 trains an hour to liverpool St formed soley of 315's with origonal low back seating and 317/5 with origonal seats interspersed with 317/6's now getting very thread bare.
Where do you get this fairytail view that in the south east we all have shiny new trains running at very close headways?
Here in the South east we have 313's from mid 70's, 150/1's, 455's, 315's and 317's all now past the 20 year old mark so before making postings check the facts please.
Added to which we in the south east on average pay higher fares for comparable journeys

Well I dont think its the same for the South East, where Southeastern & Southern serve. Although I'm not GV, so I cant talk for him, but South of London trains I think are the best in the country (short distance, and not just the actual trains, I mean times as well)

 

[delt1c]

The post stated London not South of the Thames. A lot seem to think that we are pampered here , try using a 12 coach train daily in the rush hour and you will see why they have 12 coaches on them , on many services seats are a luxury , even finding a decent space to stand can be difficult, as for the age of Southern and south eastern stock, remember they replaced some of the oldest stock around the Veps, Ceps and CIG's, nostalic wise lovely stock but on a daily basis not the most comfortable in the crush hour.
Just wish people would stop trying to create a North / South divide for railways

 

[ukrob]

The post stated London not South of the Thames. A lot seem to think that we are pampered here , try using a 12 coach train daily in the rush hour and you will see why they have 12 coaches on them , on many services seats are a luxury , even finding a decent space to stand can be difficult, as for the age of Southern and south eastern stock, remember they replaced some of the oldest stock around the Veps, Ceps and CIG's, nostalic wise lovely stock but on a daily basis not the most comfortable in the crush hour.
Just wish people would stop trying to create a North / South divide for railways

Being able to physically get on the two carriage train train so you don't have to wait half an hour for the next is a luxury in some places in the north.

Everybody has it tough. Don't make out it is just the south if you are vocally suggesting people should stop creating a north/south divide.

 

[MCR247]

The post stated London not South of the Thames. A lot seem to think that we are pampered here , try using a 12 coach train daily in the rush hour and you will see why they have 12 coaches on them , on many services seats are a luxury , even finding a decent space to stand can be difficult, as for the age of Southern and south eastern stock, remember they replaced some of the oldest stock around the Veps, Ceps and CIG's, nostalic wise lovely stock but on a daily basis not the most comfortable in the crush hour.
Just wish people would stop trying to create a North / South divide for railways

Thats all good and well, but why can Southern afford to have an 8 car 377 to Bognor with loadings that could fit into a three car 144? This is all while we have packed trains. Sheffield - Manchester is notorious for being too overcrowded on Sundays with 2x170s

 

[generalvegitable]

I have been on a train in London during rush hour, and on a train up north at a good time, and I'll just say that they were very similar experiences except the trains in the north are too small

 

[delt1c]

Being able to physically get on the two carriage train train so you don't have to wait half an hour for the next is a luxury in some places in the north.

Everybody has it tough. Don't make out it is just the south if you are vocally suggesting people should stop creating a north/south divide.

I fully agree that everybody has it tough and in no way i am saying anyone has it worse than anyone else, every where has its problems and the operating companies should be working with dft to resolve the issues. yes there are some services in the london area which appear to have excesive capicity , but there are plenty of lines which dont, try the North london line or the Gospel oak - Barking in peaks.
We have maximum 8 coaches in the peaks and when it goes wrong I have seen it at times where you cannot physically get on the train.

 

[ukrob]

We have maximum 8 coaches in the peaks and when it goes wrong I have seen it at times where you cannot physically get on the train.

Things don't have to go wrong for people to not be able to fit on the train on some services in the north

But like I said, it is not north vs south, both have areas full to capacity and both have areas with excess capacity.

 

[subway156]

As a bloody yank, I have no experience with the units you mention and I'll look them up. I just want to sort of parallel the situation in Philadelphia. Their suburban lines still use rolling stock from the rading RR and the Pennsylvania, although those roads have been closed from the 1970's. They do have their own Budd cars (all of them are Budd) and they are old, creaky, forever dirty and ugly. They smell like dirty humans and animals. Hyundai is building their new units in the old Budd plant there. They are going to be a year behind in delivery. The series 5 cars are beauties, but they are long overdue. SEPTA did drag their feet to get the job done, but now that they are finally doing it, the build is taking forever. I will be using SEPTA to attend the Philadelphia Auto show early next year. I wish they would get the lead out and expedite the delivery. But it can't be done. At least they will be on the tracks some time in 2010. hastlaveeesta

 

[Helvellyn]

One of the downsides of privatisation was fragmentation.

The sectors of British Rail would cascade stock to their own sub-sectors. Sometimes when one sector had finished with stock it would pass to another (usually NSE to Regional Railways!). The cascades worked well as each sector had a uniform identity.

With privatisation each TOC developed its own identity and own needs. This went far beyond just a livery but also included interior details and even mechanical/electrical upgrades. Splitting the same fleet between different Rolling Stock leasing companies also didn't help matters.

You just have to look at EMT to see the problem of this. It inherited 158s from Central, Northern and FGW (ex Wessex Trains). Three different interior layouts, two leasing companies, two engine types (and one of those at two different ratings!). It's refurbishment programme will help standardise a lot of things, but it will not resolve the fact some units will have Perkins engines and some Cummins. Northern had similar issues with units in a mix of colours, interior layouts, etc.

Of the new trains introduced since privatisation I would say that the Desiro family is the most consistent for their interiors. They may be wearing TOC-specific seat covers, but a SWT 444, LM 350/1, TPE 185 and ScotRail 380 all have the same 2+2 seats in Standard Class. Likewise a SWT 450 and LM 350/2 have the same 3+2 Standard Class seats. SWT even went on to use the same seats in their refurbished 455 units (albeit in a 2+2 layout). A 350 can run as a dual-voltage unit, and a 450 or 444 could be converted to run dual-voltage or on a.c. That allows potential in the future to cascade units. Compare that with the different seats used between the various Electrostars and Turbostars. Just how many sub-fleets of 375 and 377 units, or 170 units, do we need!

 

[Minstral25]

Thats all good and well, but why can Southern afford to have an 8 car 377 to Bognor with loadings that could fit into a three car 144? This is all while we have packed trains. Sheffield - Manchester is notorious for being too overcrowded on Sundays with 2x170s

Mostly because first the 8-car to Bognor is mostly 4-car and the other 4-cars go to Southhampton or Portsmouth after splitting at Horsham. Also because the 8-car train calls at East Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, THree Bridges(Crawley) and Horsham before it wanders off down to Bognor. Victoria to Redhill is normally pretty full and often standing even off peak and especially Sundays.

The 8-car/12-car split is for a couple of peak trains and I can vouch they are very full.

 

[MCR247]

Mostly because first the 8-car to Bognor is mostly 4-car and the other 4-cars go to Southhampton or Portsmouth after splitting at Horsham. Also because the 8-car train calls at East Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, THree Bridges(Crawley) and Horsham before it wanders off down to Bognor. Victoria to Redhill is normally pretty full and often standing even off peak and especially Sundays.

The 8-car/12-car split is for a couple of peak trains and I can vouch they are very full.

No, it left Victoria as a 12 car train, front 4 to Soton and the rear 8 to Bognor. I wandered up and around 9 of the coaches (I had stomach ache!) and it was empty all the way

 

[Waverley125]

contrast that to the 10:29 (arrived 10:37) Middlesbrough-Manchester Airport, arrived full & standing into York where another 80 borded to travel into Leeds. At Leeds, another 150 people where waiting on the platform to travel to Manchester, to replace the 150 who got off at Leeds.

This is going to turn into another north v south thread, but basically Northern is experiencing double-digit growth in rail use, something that was not designed for in the franchise or stock agreements when they started. So any spare/new trains need to go to Northern to strengthen services there.

 

[tbtc]

some 185s are released from Manchester-Glasgow services, as Virgin take these over

Virgin take these over with what though?

The trouble with well meaning threads like these is that they end up:

1. Essentially suggesting brand new trains for at least half of the network

2. The "cascade" suggests some impractical "hand me downs". For example, Pacers need to be replaced by a direct replacement (they never get over 70mph but they need decent acceleration/ braking due to frequent stopping and some capacity seating etc). Sticking a 170 on those routes is a waste. Sadly TOCs have preferred buying new stock for profitable "high profile" services, rather than local stopping routes.

3. They end up with the predictable "north v south" argument. Of course both areas have some new trains and some older trains. The south's figures are partly distorted due to the need to replace slam door stock, which has meant the three franchises "south of the Thames" have had disproportionately new trains. Of course, things will get "worse" when the Thameslink and Crossrail stock has been introduced...

 

[158722]

What do we KNOW (or suspect!) will happen?!

Short term: Dec 2010
8x 158 FSR to NOR (off loan)
7x 142 FGW to NOR (off loan)
5x 150 FGW to ATW (off loan)
3x 180 NOR to East Coast (off loan)
If 172 deliveries start as planned to LOR and LM:
6x 150 LOR to NOR, displace 6x 156 to EMT (to allow Norwich-Liverpool as 2x158)
15x 150 LM to FGW, replace loaned 142s, 150s and hauled sets.
20x 150 LM to ???? (potentially 20 sets, 2x3car, 18x2car distributed between FGW, NOR and ATW to absorb growth?)

All the above changes do is remove existing short-term arrangements and create a bit of breathing space until 2013, when Chat Moss possibly gets wired. The other North West projects could see what?
A new build of 350/444 or 395 style unit to replace 12xVWC 221s on Brum-Scotland and 10xTPX 185s on Manc/Liv-Scotland all under new VWC franchise? In turn, 185s displace TPX 9x170s to ??? and AXC assumes the 221s allowing some 170s to be moved elsewhere?
A new build of 350/3-car unit for LM, displacing 323s to Northern along with 319s ex-Thameslink to replace 142s on the Liv-Man-Bpool triangle of lines?

There are so many options, but given that will be 3-4 years before electrification starts things moving, surely the prority is to remove NOR's 104 Pacers, FGW's 8 and ATW's 30 (assuming above moves happen!)

 

[tbtc]

A new build of 350/444 or 395 style unit to replace 12xVWC 221s on Brum-Scotland

Thanks for posting the list of what we know is to move over the next year or two (Must admit I get confused between all the loans etc).

Not sure about the twelve VXC Voyagers though; they'd still need some for Chester/ Holyhead services

 

[158722]

Thanks for posting the list of what we know is to move over the next year or two (Must admit I get confused between all the loans etc).

Not sure about the twelve VXC Voyagers though; they'd still need some for Chester/ Holyhead services

VWC have 21x 221s, looking at the diagrams between 10-12 could be made available if north of Crewe services were all possibly covered by new EMUs, the balance being retained for Holyhead. Same with the 185s, current diagrams seem to allow around 10 units to be released from Man-Edi/Gla 'under the wires' turns.

I have seen quoted that the LOROL 150s will go to NOR, allowing 6 156s to move to EMT, which in turn allow EMT to doube 158s on the Norwich services which are badly over-crowded. 15x 150s also mentioned for FGW, not seen anything on the rest.

 

[WillPS]

One of the downsides of privatisation was fragmentation.

The sectors of British Rail would cascade stock to their own sub-sectors. Sometimes when one sector had finished with stock it would pass to another (usually NSE to Regional Railways!). The cascades worked well as each sector had a uniform identity.

With privatisation each TOC developed its own identity and own needs. This went far beyond just a livery but also included interior details and even mechanical/electrical upgrades. Splitting the same fleet between different Rolling Stock leasing companies also didn't help matters.

You just have to look at EMT to see the problem of this. It inherited 158s from Central, Northern and FGW (ex Wessex Trains). Three different interior layouts, two leasing companies, two engine types (and one of those at two different ratings!). It's refurbishment programme will help standardise a lot of things, but it will not resolve the fact some units will have Perkins engines and some Cummins. Northern had similar issues with units in a mix of colours, interior layouts, etc.

Of the new trains introduced since privatisation I would say that the Desiro family is the most consistent for their interiors. They may be wearing TOC-specific seat covers, but a SWT 444, LM 350/1, TPE 185 and ScotRail 380 all have the same 2+2 seats in Standard Class. Likewise a SWT 450 and LM 350/2 have the same 3+2 Standard Class seats. SWT even went on to use the same seats in their refurbished 455 units (albeit in a 2+2 layout). A 350 can run as a dual-voltage unit, and a 450 or 444 could be converted to run dual-voltage or on a.c. That allows potential in the future to cascade units. Compare that with the different seats used between the various Electrostars and Turbostars. Just how many sub-fleets of 375 and 377 units, or 170 units, do we need!

You're right - it should have remained that fleet upgrades remained at a national/ROSCO level. I don't really understand why it's the TOC's responsibility to upgrade/refurb their units anyway - they're renting a furbished item, surely it's the owners responsibility to upgrade, and the client's responsibility to maintain??

You're right on the Desiros too. Pitty they're not very comfy!

What do we KNOW (or suspect!) will happen?!

Short term: Dec 2010
8x 158 FSR to NOR (off loan)
7x 142 FGW to NOR (off loan)
5x 150 FGW to ATW (off loan)
3x 180 NOR to East Coast (off loan)
If 172 deliveries start as planned to LOR and LM:
6x 150 LOR to NOR, displace 6x 156 to EMT (to allow Norwich-Liverpool as 2x158)
15x 150 LM to FGW, replace loaned 142s, 150s and hauled sets.
20x 150 LM to ???? (potentially 20 sets, 2x3car, 18x2car distributed between FGW, NOR and ATW to absorb growth?)

All the above changes do is remove existing short-term arrangements and create a bit of breathing space until 2013, when Chat Moss possibly gets wired. The other North West projects could see what?
A new build of 350/444 or 395 style unit to replace 12xVWC 221s on Brum-Scotland and 10xTPX 185s on Manc/Liv-Scotland all under new VWC franchise? In turn, 185s displace TPX 9x170s to ??? and AXC assumes the 221s allowing some 170s to be moved elsewhere?
A new build of 350/3-car unit for LM, displacing 323s to Northern along with 319s ex-Thameslink to replace 142s on the Liv-Man-Bpool triangle of lines?

There are so many options, but given that will be 3-4 years before electrification starts things moving, surely the prority is to remove NOR's 104 Pacers, FGW's 8 and ATW's 30 (assuming above moves happen!)

I can't wait for the cascades to happen. I'm guessing this time next year we'll see quite a lot of DMU's moving about.

 

[Helvellyn]

You're right on the Desiros too. Pitty they're not very comfy!

I wonder if part of the consistency comes from Siemens being hevaily involved with maintaining a lot of the units themselves, specifically the SWT, LM and TPE ones?