Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[underbank]

Too much short termism in this thread. A new railway line is built to deal with capacity required over the next 50 years or so.

Worrying about trains are carrying fresh air today or what the fares might be etc is just froth.

True, but people, especially outside the cities, have very real worries about the poor state of their local public transport and are right to question why there's money for big projects like HS2 but no money to replace crap Pacers or an evening bus service. The politicians should be explaining to such people why!

 

[EM2]

I know, perhaps I should have added a

I know that you know, but it seems that some people don't

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm sorry but Birmingham New Street to Birmingham Moor Street is hardly a crime infested slum as you seem to paint a picture of.

It is not exactly pleasant, though, especially after sunset. A dark dingy "tunnel" below the shopping centre, often with numerous rough sleepers and dodgy-looking characters.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think people are against HS2 because it’s general change, and people are naturally suspicious of it.

Personally, speaking as a train enthusiast, I think HS2 is “cool”, however I think I would prefer the action of a classic main line railway. High speed routes can be quite soulles.

I don’t have any problems per se with it being built, although I think building termini in Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds is a terrible idea-cutting off the possibility of through cross country services.

 

[Bald Rick]

It (the 3tph routes) is indeed the highest frequency InterCity-type route in Europe.

End to end presumably, for journeys above x km (150?)

Otherwise London to Leicester would have something to say!

 

[camflyer]

It (the 3tph routes) is indeed the highest frequency InterCity-type route in Europe.

Is that really correct? I would have thought that a route such as Amsterdam-Rotterdam or Brussels-Antwerp would have higher frequencies than 3 tph.

 

[Clip]

The volume is due to who is being upset by HS2. No one wants nearby construction, eyesores, and noise near them but the richer folk are better connected with politicians and have the skills and cash to mount effective campaigns.

Are you saying that the route has been chosen to acoind people who may be rich and have lobbied for it to go elsewhere? The protestations by certain parties suggest otherwise.

It's about time that they scrapped the pantomine of the likes of PMQT as that is just turning people off politics and blocking the real messages that need to be given to Joe Public. It's the latest "spat" between politicians that always gets the media attention, leaving no space and no interest for what really matters and what the population should be getting told.

What has PMQ got to do with building a new railway?

True, but people, especially outside the cities, have very real worries about the poor state of their local public transport and are right to question why there's money for big projects like HS2 but no money to replace crap Pacers or an evening bus service. The politicians should be explaining to such people why!

Pacers ARE being replaced though so your flapping in the wind yet again.

Lets face it the vociferous opposition to a new railway on this forum is amazing as its both unfounded and non factual and also it beggars belief that even though people have been challenged they don't reply but not only that - its the fact that railway enthusiasts are so opposed to a new railway. Any rail fan would welcome it - especially when they eschew the quality of other countries railways both new and old

 

[Clip]

Is that really correct? I would have thought that a route such as Amsterdam-Rotterdam or Brussels-Antwerp would have higher frequencies than 3 tph.

Do they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that really correct? I would have thought that a route such as Amsterdam-Rotterdam or Brussels-Antwerp would have higher frequencies than 3 tph.

Those may have the train category "InterCity", but they are not in reality proper InterCity services, they are medium-distance regional expresses.

But if you're going to include them...go ahead and also include the London Northwestern services to Birmingham (which are more similar to those two services than those two services are to VT) - in which case you're on 6tph. There are Southern services which are more IC than those.

I suspect the definition would include a minimum speed of at least 160km/h, probably 200km/h.

 

[camflyer]

Those may have the train category "InterCity", but they are not in reality proper InterCity services, they are medium-distance regional expresses.

But if you're going to include them...go ahead and also include the London Northwestern services to Birmingham (which are more similar to those two services than those two services are to VT) - in which case you're on 6tph. There are Southern services which are more IC than those.

I suspect the definition would include a minimum speed of at least 160km/h, probably 200km/h.

All of those are valid points but I suppose it all comes down to how you define "proper InterCity services"

 

[Bletchleyite]

All of those are valid points but I suppose it all comes down to how you define "proper InterCity services"

Yes, that is true. The train category alone is no use for this - not least because the UK does not have train categories!

I suspect any sensible definition would be something like a minimum speed of at least 160km/h (possibly 180km/h) and a minimum average time/distance between stops that would be well in excess of anything either SNCB or NS operate domestically, both of those networks just being commuter ones rather akin to something like GTR (the Brighton Express or the SWR Weymouths would definitely be IC by their standards). Talking of NS, the only thing I'd say they operate that is actually InterCity is the international train to Brussels.

 

[Senex]

I don’t have any problems per se with it being built, although I think building termini in Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds is a terrible idea-cutting off the possibility of through cross country services.

That’s my objection too. The major English cities all on branches. Replication of the fault of the WCML. And similarly poor northbound connections from Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s my objection too. The major English cities all on branches. Replication of the fault of the WCML. And similarly poor northbound connections from Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds.

Given the locations of those cities it's a bit difficult to do otherwise without losing the high speed benefit. How do you serve Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool, say, on the same line, without wandering it about all over the place?

 

[Clip]

And similarly poor northbound connections from Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds.

What are these poor connections you speak of? Interested to know to fill my knowledge

 

[HowardGWR]

Given the locations of those cities it's a bit difficult to do otherwise without losing the high speed benefit. How do you serve Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool, say, on the same line, without wandering it about all over the place?

You go underground I suppose. I think Senex has a point. Brum could have had a Hbf back along and the chance has been missed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You go underground I suppose

In Brum you have a point, but for the other cities you'd have a job - it'd be wandery and slow.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Given the locations of those cities it's a bit difficult to do otherwise without losing the high speed benefit. How do you serve Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool, say, on the same line, without wandering it about all over the place?

Birmingham can no longer be helped because they’re building the station, but you can always build a Stratford Internatuonal style box nex to Moor Street and Tunnel towards Tame Bridge Parkway.

Manchester is tricky because ideally you’d want HS3 trains to run from the airport east to Leeds, but that alignment will deny access from central Manchester northwards to Glasgow.

With Leeds, do you really need a separate termini? Can’t quite see why you need captive sets on the eastern arm, normal size trains could just fit into Sheffield, Nottingham and Leeds stations normally. If Leeds station can’t handle extra HS2 traffic, build a Crossrail type tunnel under Leeds and build up the local traffic. Would surely be more beneficial than building a hs2 Tunnel under the city instead.

I think you should build HS3 after HS2 phase 1, then HS4 could be Birmingham to Manchester, and HS5 St. Pancras to Leeds.

 

[Edgeley]

HS2 Purpose 1: free up more capacity for London commuter services from the Milton Keynes and Northampton areas.

HS2 Purpose 2 (if it ever gets beyond Birmingham): enable hot shot people from business, the public sector etc, travelling on expenses, to travel slightly quicker and with less contact with the proles than now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HS2 Purpose 1: free up more capacity for London commuter services from the Milton Keynes and Northampton areas.

HS2 Purpose 2 (if it ever gets beyond Birmingham): enable hot shot people from business, the public sector etc, travelling on expenses, to travel slightly quicker and with less contact with the proles than now.

Well, quite - this is why I think there is a much poorer case for phase 2.

 

[cactustwirly]

End to end presumably, for journeys above x km (150?)

Otherwise London to Leicester would have something to say!

Or Swindon, which will have 5tph soon.

 

[Aictos]

HS2 Purpose 1: free up more capacity for London commuter services from the Milton Keynes and Northampton areas.

HS2 Purpose 2 (if it ever gets beyond Birmingham): enable hot shot people from business, the public sector etc, travelling on expenses, to travel slightly quicker and with less contact with the proles than now.

And course having more IC services didn't cross your mind at all?

HS2 brings far more then just providing capacity for commuters from Northampton and MKC, it gives places which used to have a regular IC service before Virgin Trains VHF timetable IC services again, it also opens up new journeys for people that would not be possible with the existing WCML.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or Swindon, which will have 5tph soon.

Swindon isn’t a city by any definition, and not 150km from London either (which is my definition!)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And course having more IC services didn't cross your mind at all?

HS2 brings far more then just providing capacity for commuters from Northampton and MKC, it gives places which used to have a regular IC service before Virgin Trains VHF timetable IC services again, it also opens up new journeys for people that would not be possible with the existing WCML.

Not forgetting of course that, once Phase 2 opens, the same opportunities for a better service to towns in the Home Counties will also apply to the ECML and (to a smaller extent) the MML. There's also an issue of places off the main lines getting the opportunities for services as paths on the main lines get released by HS2. As an example, I'd expect that one likely consequence of HS2 Phase 2 is that places like Scunthorpe, Lincoln and Grimsby will gain direct services to London (via Peterborough). And although there's a smaller market so it's much more speculative, I wouldn't totally surprised if places like Boston, Melton Mowbray and Scarborough also eventually gained regular London services that would not have been possible without HS2.

 

[Aictos]

Not forgetting of course that, once Phase 2 opens, the same opportunities for a better service to towns in the Home Counties will also apply to the ECML and (to a smaller extent) the MML. There's also an issue of places off the main lines getting the opportunities for services as paths on the main lines get released by HS2. As an example, I'd expect that one likely consequence of HS2 Phase 2 is that places like Scunthorpe, Lincoln and Grimsby will gain direct services to London (via Peterborough). And although there's a smaller market so it's much more speculative, I wouldn't totally surprised if places like Boston, Melton Mowbray and Scarborough also eventually gained regular London services that would not have been possible without HS2.

Indeed, some services that currently only run as Summer Specials could in theory if rolling stock was available operate all year around but also you could see some former services make a comeback on the ECML, MML and the WCML as a result of HS2.

Former BR services making a comeback

Kings Cross - Stevenage - Peterborough - Grantham - Newark Northgate - Lincoln - Market Rasen - Barnetby - Grimsby Town - Cleethorpes

London Euston - Milton Keynes - Birmingham International - Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton - Crewe - Preston - Carlisle -
Motherwell - Coatbridge Central - Stirling - Gleneagles - Perth - Pitlochry - Newtonmore - Kingussie - Aviemore - Inverness

Existing Summer Only services

St Pancras International - Luton - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Loughborough - East Midlands Parkway - Derby -
Chesterfield - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Scarborough

These are only examples of what routes we could see when HS2 Phase 2 goes ahead which I believe will benefit people.

Yet there are already stations on the network that have around that sort of time for a connection to get from one side to the other so whats the difference between them and this new connection?

Nothing. Thats the answer. Nothing.

Its just another feeble excuse to bring to the table

Indeed, it's feeble what excuses people bring just because they don't like the idea of something that benefits others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, it's feeble what excuses people bring just because they don't like the idea of something that benefits others.

And also that they ignore indirect benefits, such as once you remove ICWC trains from the WCML through Stockport you might actually be able to give the Hazel Grove line a Merseyrail style level of service, for instance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Too much short termism in this thread. A new railway line is built to deal with capacity required over the next 50 years or so.

Will the capacity be needed in 50 years? Really? I'd say technology will make it less likely, not more.

My view on HS2 is that it is willy-waving by politicians. Nothing more, nothing less. HS2 won't provide capacity on the WCML because most WCML passengers aren't going to or anywhere near Birmingham. It's going to be a white elephant and the only way they'll make it look good is by trashing the "classic" trains like they did in Kent.

Opinion polls routinely show 50% of people against it. And if public opinion is good enough for Brecit!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My view on HS2 is that it is willy-waving by politicians. Nothing more, nothing less. HS2 won't provide capacity on the WCML because most WCML passengers aren't going to or anywhere near Birmingham. It's going to be a white elephant and the only way they'll make it look good is by trashing the "classic" trains like they did in Kent.

HS2 will provide capacity on the south WCML, specifically south of Hanslope Junction. That's what it is primarily for.

Opinion polls routinely show 50% of people against it. And if public opinion is good enough for Brecit!

Brexit affects everyone, so therefore it sort-of makes sense giving everyone a vote. If we had referenda on every infrastructure project designed to benefit a specific area, none would ever be built as obviously less than 50% would be in support. You can't really compare the two, and a national referendum on HS2 would be beyond ridiculous, just like a national referendum on Crossrail would be.

 

[swaldman]

HS2 won't provide capacity on the WCML because most WCML passengers aren't going to or anywhere near Birmingham.

How about people going to or *anywhere north of* Birmingham? I assume that even with just Phase 1 built, trains for Manchester, Glasgow, etc., will use HS1 for the first bit of their journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about people going to or *anywhere north of* Birmingham? I assume that even with just Phase 1 built, trains for Manchester, Glasgow, etc., will use HS1 for the first bit of their journey.

That won't provide significant capacity in excess of what presently exists (it will provide a bit as the trains will be longer), though it will as a side-effect give a small speed-up. The primary benefit of the extra capacity to points north of Hanslope Junction is reliability and punctuality - the WCML will no longer fall in a hole for several hours when somebody sneezes on the platform at Cheddington. Filling it with too many more trains just so it's more visible will just negate the point.

 

[swaldman]

That won't provide significant capacity in excess of what presently exists (it will provide a bit as the trains will be longer), though it will as a side-effect give a small speed-up. The primary benefit of the extra capacity to points north of Hanslope Junction is reliability and punctuality - the WCML will no longer fall in a hole for several hours when somebody sneezes on the platform at Cheddington. Filling it with too many more trains just so it's more visible will just negate the point.

Surely it provides more capacity on the part of the WCML that is bypassed by Phase 1? I was responding to the assertion that HS2 wouldn't provide more capacity because most people aren't going to Birmingham.